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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
trap could never leave his base because he always had like 50 supply of tech units defending a new nydus and he couldn't afford things like cannons because he kept losing buildings in the main anyway happy for rogue and not that angry about balance personally but the games just plain sucked to watch | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 28 2019 22:50 Poopi wrote: But someone told me Serral was the greatest esport athlete ever? Was I fooled? Since the start of 2018, Zerg took 17 Premier tournaments and Serral won 10 of those by himself(Rogue and Reynor won 2 while soO, Dark and Scarlett won 1 each); also, Zerg lost 11 finals if I'm counting correctly(Serral lost 3) while Protoss lost 13. You were not fooled, Serral truly is great and Zerg being very strong in the last few months has nothing to deal with that. At the moment, Protoss should lead with 87 Premier titles followed by Zerg with 86 and Terran with 85, but this should be verified(I'm not sure if I am on par with Liquipedia's last changes). | ||
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greenturtle23
86 Posts
1. There can be several nyduses that can pop up at once as long as you have vision. 2. There is no cap on the number of units that can travel. 2 is especially problematic because it means an entire army can pop in to an opponents base, and even more importantly retreat out. Comboed with infested terrans, it is just silly. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 28 2019 22:31 MrShankly wrote: Was Trap half asleep during those games? Nah the balance team was | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last 8 WCS - zerg Last 2 GSL - zerg Last 4 IEM - zerg Last 2 blizzcon - zerg Last 2 GSL vs TW - zerg Last 2 HSC - zerg Shame they had to lose game 7s in the last 2 WeSG as well or they would have an entire monopoly over sc2. And before anyone says half of them were Serral, you're right. Serral is the best zerg. If zerg is winning everything then it makes sense the best of them would win the most. Take him away and other zergs would have more trophies (reynor wins every wcs, rogue wins another blizzcon etc). | ||
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WerderBremen
Germany1070 Posts
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Xamo
Spain880 Posts
At this time I am starting to think that Blizzard wants Serral to win another Blizzcon no matter what. Funny thing is that he actually didn’t need any help, this only devaluates his wins as it does with Rogue. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 28 2019 23:57 Xamo wrote: At this time I am starting to think that Blizzard wants Serral to win another Blizzcon no matter what. Funny thing is that he actually didn’t need any help, this only devaluates his wins as it does with Rogue. The entire mission of the WCS system since 2016 was to get a foreigner champion so at this point the conspiracy only grows stronger  | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On September 28 2019 23:16 Poopi wrote: Why do you think they are talking about it now? Iirc during broodlord infestor they didn’t mention it Probably because the game was mature and in a quite good state for 2017 and 2018 (except perhaps TvP) so now it's felt all the harder because we know how good it could be. Blizzard screwed up big time. | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3111 Posts
Game 3 was especially rough (though admittedly hilarious in its own way). I'm about as resistant to balance whine as they come, but the fact that you have a single unit Zerg can build in late game that in itself counters every aspect of Protoss late game (fungal counters melee units & small units, infested terrans counter air, neural counters all big slow important units, when Protoss late game=small numbers of slow important mostly air units + swarms of Chargelots) already frustrated me, & now it turns out that Infestors also are the best harass unit in the game, with perma-cloak & the ability to pop up anywhere & kill both probes & buildings...bleh. Seeing Zerg use the same unit to kill the Protoss economy & infrastructure, get out without losing anything, & then immediately use the same units to stomp all over their late game army is just not particularly fun or dynamic to watch, to say the least. The Nydus Worm is something I'm more fond of, & I think it has its place in the game, but the issue seems to be the way in which it allows Zerg to instantly translate an extremely defensive stance (build lots of Queens! build lots of Roaches! which are both rather slow, ungainly units that are supposed to have as a downside the fact that by making yourself safe from all-ins & harass you're neutering your long-term offensive potential) into a game-ending all-in that bypasses all defenses & translates most Zerg defensive advantages directly to the enemy's main (now all those slow, ungainly defensive units are in your base, on creep, with instant reinforce!). The basic issue is that it just feels like while Zerg has a number of things that feel really strong in different, complimentary ways, Protoss...doesn't. You can have a race with big advantages at certain points if the other race has units/abilities/etc that can pull off dramatic swings in turn. I dunno what that would be for Protoss, though (warp prism all-ins were, but I dunno if they still are). Anyway, as I said, I don't like balance whine, so I will say Rogue played well, & I'm happy he won a final finally. Also PvT seems to be in a really excellent state atm, so I look forward to seeing some good games in the Global Finals there. | ||
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parksonsc
175 Posts
On September 29 2019 01:08 Captain Peabody wrote: That was...a depressing finals. Game 3 was especially rough (though admittedly hilarious in its own way). I'm about as resistant to balance whine as they come, but the fact that you have a single unit Zerg can build in late game that in itself counters every aspect of Protoss late game (fungal counters melee units & small units, infested terrans counter air, neural counters all big slow important units, when Protoss late game=small numbers of slow important mostly air units + swarms of Chargelots) already frustrated me, & now it turns out that Infestors also are the best harass unit in the game, with perma-cloak & the ability to pop up anywhere & kill both probes & buildings...bleh. Seeing Zerg use the same unit to kill the Protoss economy & infrastructure, get out without losing anything, & then immediately use the same units to stomp all over their late game army is just not particularly fun or dynamic to watch, to say the least. The Nydus Worm is something I'm more fond of, & I think it has its place in the game, but the issue seems to be the way in which it allows Zerg to instantly translate an extremely defensive stance (build lots of Queens! build lots of Roaches! which are both rather slow, ungainly units that are supposed to have as a downside the fact that by making yourself safe from all-ins & harass you're neutering your long-term offensive potential) into a game-ending all-in that bypasses all defenses & translates most Zerg defensive advantages directly to the enemy's main (now all those slow, ungainly defensive units are in your base, on creep, with instant reinforce!). The basic issue is that it just feels like while Zerg has a number of things that feel really strong in different, complimentary ways, Protoss...doesn't. You can have a race with big advantages at certain points if the other race has units/abilities/etc that can pull off dramatic swings in turn. I dunno what that would be for Protoss, though (warp prism all-ins were, but I dunno if they still are). Anyway, as I said, I don't like balance whine, so I will say Rogue played well, & I'm happy he won a final finally. Also PvT seems to be in a really excellent state atm, so I look forward to seeing some good games in the Global Finals there. Firstly, dont pretend like you are not balance whining like anyone would, given this shitty final. Secondly, PvT is in excellent state? You must be kidding. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 28 2019 23:37 Fango wrote: btw zerg has a streak in almost every tournament series Last 8 WCS - zerg Last 2 GSL - zerg Last 4 IEM - zerg Last 2 blizzcon - zerg Last 2 GSL vs TW - zerg Last 2 HSC - zerg Shame they had to lose game 7s in the last 2 WeSG as well or they would have an entire monopoly over sc2. And before anyone says half of them were Serral, you're right. Serral is the best zerg. If zerg is winning everything then it makes sense the best of them would win the most. Take him away and other zergs would have more trophies (reynor wins every wcs, rogue wins another blizzcon etc). That's a more subtle way of discrediting Serral: now that's objectively impossible to say that he is not good enough or that he wasn't extensively tested in a certain matchup, it must be that Serral won his titles because Zerg is simply too strong, forgetting that in this "Zerg Summer" he won only 2 out of his 10(and that he won when balance was better or even unfavorable to Zerg like at HSC XVIII). Coming more strictly to your point, while it's true that Zerg have been performing very well in WCS and international tournaments(while they had never won a Code S in LoTV before Dark did three months ago), Serral is not just the best when Zerg winning is a foregone conclusion as you are saying; let's take a look at what would have happened if we took him out of the equation(assuming he lost every ro4), with the exception of Code S and IEM that Serral never won(meaning that those streaks would be intact anyway). HSC's titles are entirely due to Serral being Serral, no other Zerg was close to winning: at XVIII, we would have had a Bunny-Inno final while at XIX the final would have most likely been TY-Zest. As for BlizzCon, a Zerg had to win in 2017, no doubt, but last year Stats could have very well taken out Rogue in the eventual finals considering how he fared against Serral's ZvP, by far the best in the world at the time; Serral's contribution was needed to create the streak, a 50% to say the least. Serral's mark on GSL vs The World is even more evident: Stats would have arguably been favored against Dark in 2018 while Elazer's chanches would have been very slim against Classic last August. Last comes WCS! In 2018, at Leipzeig the final would have been Showtime-Special, at Austin Lambo could have maybe been favored over Mana, at Valencia Big Gabe would have been given the task of stopping Has' miracolous run while we'd have had a mirror final at Montreal(probably Reynor winning it and going to BlizzCon). In 2019, Reynor actually won twice(not sure if he could have beaten Heromarine at WCS Winter while I could see him make short work of Showtime at WCS Summer) and he would have been arguably favored over Special at WCS Spring and Neeb at WCS Fall. There would be an open Zerg streak in WCS although probably as large as 3 titles. According to this abstraction, Serral's presence would have gifted the Zerg race 6/7 Premier titles(and one Major); otherwise, we might have seen a non korean Terran win a WCS Circuit and Protoss' record in finals being considerably better, with Stats probably becoming the best player ever to play the race. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Zerg's current streak: Last 8 WCS Last 2 GSL Last 4 IEM Last 2 blizzcon Last 2 GSL vs TW Last 2 HSC Zerg's current streak minus Serral: Last 5 WCS Last 4 IEM Last 2 blizzcon Last 2 GSL Still looks busted to me. (and yes I took some assumptions like Rogue winning blizzcon last year and reynor winning every wcs this year but those results would have been highly favoured). | ||
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lifecanwait
96 Posts
What Trap could have done better is put cannons/observers in important places near his base, so Infestors cannot get through unseen. But against nyduses in multiple locations there is nothing you can do, as the Zergs just tend to sacrifice overlords to have full vision. That definitely should be changed in the future. | ||
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LordYama
United States370 Posts
Oh it's in contention for worst GSL final since NesTea vs Inca. Didn't that one feature some comical slow banelings chasing probes around a nexus or pylon? That reference brings that image to my mind for some reason. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 29 2019 02:24 Fango wrote: Yah that's exactly my point, take Serral away and zerg is still the best race. This isn't like Maru winning GSL when no other terran made ro8. Serral is not close to being the lone zerg contending for championships (Dark, Reynor, soO, Rogue, and maybe even Elazer or Solar can be thrown in there). Zerg's current streak: Last 8 WCS Last 2 GSL Last 4 IEM Last 2 blizzcon Last 2 GSL vs TW Last 2 HSC Zerg's current streak minus Serral: Last 5 WCS Last 4 IEM Last 2 blizzcon Last 2 GSL Still looks busted to me. (and yes I took some assumptions like Rogue winning blizzcon last year and reynor winning every wcs this year but those results would have been highly favoured). You mean it's not like Terran winning seven Code S in a row as it was the case earlier this year(or TY not winning Code S because Maru did)? Reynor most likely wouldn't have won all of the WCS stops in 2019 and the idea that Rogue would have it won against Stats last BlizzCon is frankly ridicolous, it would have been a coin toss. Zerg won 6 out of the last 8 Premier Tournaments(GPL included...), a balance problem most likely exists in this "Zerg Summer", and it will be addressed next patch, be sure of that; this only is what is making Zerg's numbers look off the scale if we remove Serral, who is even bigger of a factor. Instead of having 7 T-5 P-17 Z as Premier Tournament winner since the start of 2018, without Serral we would have had something like 9 T-9 P-11 Z: much more balanced overall despite the "Zerg Summer" imbalance being barely scratched(only GSL vs the World 2019 would have had a different champion). | ||
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
this isn't a race representation issue, it's a "lategame zvp is a stupid circus" issue, but yeah let's have the same stupid tinfoil rants about CoNsPiraCies To MaKe seRrAL wIN!!!! | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7996 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On September 29 2019 02:56 Tsubbi wrote: Was Trap sick or something? His played looked absolutely awful no, that's actually what it looks like when a world class protoss defends against nydus attacks (no sarcasm) | ||
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Sombre
United Kingdom86 Posts
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