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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 29 2019 03:12 Sombre wrote: My friend says the Sandwiches they handed out were bizarre. Ham and cheese with caramel sauce We should talk more about these things and not about the current balance. Ham + cheese + caramel huh, definitely a weird composition but i'd try it. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On September 29 2019 03:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: We should talk more about these things and not about the current balance. Ham + cheese + caramel huh, definitely a weird composition but i'd try it. More importantly, how will this meta develop over the coming month?! For the super tournament they could serve falaffel with ice cream but what will happen at the global finals ro16? Noodle soup with marshmellows? Gummy bear kimchi?!? What the hell is going on afreeca you madmen | ||
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Captain Peabody
United States3128 Posts
On September 29 2019 03:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: We should talk more about these things and not about the current balance. Ham + cheese + caramel huh, definitely a weird composition but i'd try it. Yeah, doesn't actually sound bad. It would depend a lot on what kind of bread they used tho | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On September 29 2019 02:57 brickrd wrote: no, that's actually what it looks like when a world class protoss defends against nydus attacks (no sarcasm) Yeah, a build like Rogue did in game 1 and 2 is exceptionally hard to hold. It's one of those builds where if one nydus gets built you just lose, but even worse because zerg also attacks the front wall, anything less than a perfect response to both fronts is a loss because at that point in the game protoss doesn't usually have enough units to deal with both mass queens with transfuse and a mass ling attack. The infestor/broodlord + nydus infestor harass strategy is something Puck actually brought up a long long time ago (as in right after the nydus buff first happened) as being borderline impossible to beat if zerg plays it right. You have to spend resources to defend against units that only cost energy, and because of how infestors are they will almost always do damage with harass while not costing the zerg anything. It's problematic to say the least. | ||
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Andi_Goldberger
Germany1608 Posts
On September 29 2019 03:43 Captain Peabody wrote: Yeah, doesn't actually sound bad. It would depend a lot on what kind of bread they used tho their bread was probably really soft and soggy white bread  as a german most bread is horrible tho :D | ||
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-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
If they're really set on infestors being such a multi-purpose, powerful unit, do they need to only cost 100/150? They're barely only more expensive than mutas, but they're easily the most powerful spellcaster and historically problematic. It doesn't really even hurt to lose them because their comp secures so much income. Might be nice to see some creativity with Protoss lategame. Could make mothership immune to neural and give it some range? P needs some way to besiege the Zerg army if Z is always going to win a straight engagement. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On September 29 2019 03:37 sneakyfox wrote: More importantly, how will this meta develop over the coming month?! For the super tournament they could serve falaffel with ice cream but what will happen at the global finals ro16? Noodle soup with marshmellows? Gummy bear kimchi?!? What the hell is going on afreeca you madmen I heard lambo say that the korean sandwich meta is behind the eu one, so maybe afreeca is trying to be gimmicky and work with surprise ingredients to get the edge. | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
Game 1: Trap tried to mindgame, which relied solely on Rogue not scouting and being caught off guard. The build itself (early robo into 2-stargate phoenix off 2 base) is dead in the water against any type of all-in. His gambit failed, Rogue got the scout, and chose to all-in. Nydus was the flavor of the day, but a roach/ravager/ling all-in would have worked just as well against hardly any ground units and a small phoenix count. Game 2: Trap played bad. I don't know how else to put it. He basically died to being caught off-guard by small amounts of lings over and over, and once again, the nydus itself was just the cherry on top of Trap's poop cake. Game 3: The only game that I think most of the balance discussion should actually revolve around. I don't think Trap was powerless as much as he was unprepared. That was the only high-profile game that I know of where the infestor-nydus combo was used to such great effect. It looked like Trap tried to improvise a strategy against it but didn't really know what to do. Just a couple more observers might have gone a long way, because we saw how insanely cost-effective those disruptor shots were against the unprotected infestors. The problem was that most of the time he couldn't actually see the infestors, and he whiffed a few key shots that could have turned the tide. The whole game was basically Rogue whipping out a new playstyle to say, "See? I really am still a lategame monster." Maybe we should withhold our judgment on it until our Protoss pros have had some time to think about and test some solutions. Game 4 was basically just a well-defended all-in whose outcome rested on a few key moments. TL;DR ZvP might be in a rough spot right now, but I don't think this particular series is a shining example of a good balance discussion (besides maybe game 3). | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
On September 29 2019 05:24 Kitai wrote: TL;DR ZvP might be in a rough spot right now, but I don't think this particular series is a shining example of a good balance discussion (besides maybe game 3). you are arguing with a strawman. no one here is saying "trap played better and should have won but balance stole it from him," people are saying 1) the games were dogshit to watch, pretty much everyone agrees on this 2) whether he "should have won" or not in any particular game, nydus strategies look unreasonably oppressive you don't have to think trap is "better" or "played better" or "should have won" to think that nydus is fucked up On September 29 2019 05:29 Kitai wrote: Also: I don't think this finals was *nearly* as bad as NesTea vs Inca. Yes, it was mostly a beatdown, but at least Trap tried different strategies instead of "well, the spore crawlers stopped my DT Hail Mary the last three games, but THIS one will be different!" to each his own but i think most people find it frustrating, not exciting, to watch someone try hail mary cheese builds while being obliterated 4-0 and no one is using just this series to base their nydus opinions on - i've been seeing pros die to nydus, GM streamers die to nydus, and casual ladder players die to nydus for months, nobody just randomly decided this based on one finals | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 29 2019 02:48 Xain0n wrote: Instead of having 7 T-5 P-17 Z as Premier Tournament winner since the start of 2018, without Serral we would have had something like 9 T-9 P-11 Z: much more balanced overall despite the "Zerg Summer" imbalance being barely scratched(only GSL vs the World 2019 would have had a different champion). if you remove the best Zerg out of the equation you also have to remove the best Terran and the best Protoss out of the equation for a fair comparison | ||
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Kitai
United States880 Posts
On September 29 2019 05:31 brickrd wrote: to each his own but i think most people find it frustrating, not exciting, to watch someone try hail mary cheese builds while being obliterated 4-0 Yes, you just described the entire Inca vs NesTea finals, which is why I said it was worse - especially because it was the same cheese every game. | ||
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Elentos
55569 Posts
On September 29 2019 05:32 Charoisaur wrote: if you remove the best Zerg out of the equation you also have to remove the best Terran and the best Protoss out of the equation for a fair comparison Taking out Maru, Serral and Stats leaves us with 3 Protoss, 2 Terran and 7 Zerg Premier wins since the start of 2018 with a major asterisk on 1 of the Terran wins because you have to be really biased to consider GPL a Premier. And also minor asterisks on Protoss and Zerg because WCS Winter is iffy too. | ||
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necrosexy
451 Posts
also, would anyone else like to seriously argue that nydus is "ok"? lol ... | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On September 29 2019 06:00 necrosexy wrote: The wheel hath come full circle! also, would anyone else like to seriously argue that nydus is "ok"? lol ... Yes it promotes action-packed, exciting games! Protoss needs to learn how to defend properly. | ||
Poopi
France12911 Posts
Congrats to Rogue tho, a new GSL champion is always nice and he deserves it after so long ro8 curse / mental block | ||
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RogerChillingworth
Chad3131 Posts
Rogue wins tournaments with queen/nydus/ling. It's just what he does. I figured there were gonna be at least 1 or 2 of those in there, along with a Trap proxy and a couple immortal all-ins. Z seems strong right now, but I feel it's mostly Rogue's play style that makes his series unfun to watch. I dno, I just never enjoy a Rogue series. I said on reddit I think Dark/Maru would have been a great finals and that Maru didn't monster mode it vs Trap. He just kinda died. Got downvoted into oblivion. Hate to say I told you so, but the mixture of ZvP, Trap playing bad, and Rogue's playstyle doesn't exactly set us up for a great back-and-forth finals. (Of course, we couldn't have predicted Trap would underperform, but the fact that it's a team-kill may hint at something along those lines, for either rogue or trap). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 29 2019 05:39 Elentos wrote: Taking out Maru, Serral and Stats leaves us with 3 Protoss, 2 Terran and 7 Zerg Premier wins since the start of 2018 with a major asterisk on 1 of the Terran wins because you have to be really biased to consider GPL a Premier. And also minor asterisks on Protoss and Zerg because WCS Winter is iffy too. If you want to play my game, the removed Premier tournaments(from most to less recent) without Maru and Stats(considering him as the best Protoss), would have the following alternate finals:TIME/herO vs Solar, Classic vs Trap, TY vs Zest, sOs vs Rogue, Showtime/Special vs Dark, Classic vs Zest, Dark vs herO, Reynor vs Dark, soO vs Dark. It's undeniable that Terran would have suffered, without Maru; this would set it up to something like 14/15 Z-10/9 P-5 T since 2018 but at this point there would just be too many question marks. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
Specifically as it pertains to PvZ and not other matchups, nyduses are really brutal. Protoss rely on walling and powering, and can survive no problem if they’re playing defensively. However they can’t really beat BL/Infestor, so they hit sharp pre-BL timings. Which Zergs were better at defending recently anyway but now they have cheaper OL speed to boot. It feels Protoss are really, really constricted in this matchup against quality Zergs nowadays. They can try to hit some early timing, although Zergs are better at sniffing these out. They can try to hit a pre-Brood timing but nydus backstabs as they move out really bleed out the push, or they can attempt to beat BL/Infestor straight up which doesn’t tend to go very well. If your gameplan is doing something like a fakeout into double stargate build and hoping your opponent misreads it, I just don’t think that is a good matchup dynamic at all. I don’t think any individual element is broken but in combination they’re a bad mix. If your racial strength in a matchup is the element of surprise and the opponent race both got stuff better figured out by players, then got an additional buff to their ability to scout said surprises. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26505 Posts
On September 29 2019 02:57 brickrd wrote: no, that's actually what it looks like when a world class protoss defends against nydus attacks (no sarcasm) Basically. He really didn’t even play that badly at all, which is the frustrating thing. A combination of nyduses popping up all over the place, cloaked Infestor runbys, while trying to do something offensively it’s just incredibly difficult to deal with, it looks sloppy as an observer sure but Rogue hit him from so many angles all the time. Rogue utilised all these elements fantastically and really played a great series. | ||
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