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On July 01 2019 11:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 10:52 Amarillo Caballero wrote:On July 01 2019 10:06 BerserkSword wrote:On July 01 2019 09:28 AzAlexZ wrote:On July 01 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:On July 01 2019 09:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 09:07 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On July 01 2019 09:03 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 09:01 Anc13nt wrote:
it's hard to understand how INnovation beat Serral twice this year. He makes zerg look imba. Innovation is in better form lately than TY is. Maybe TY starts getting better from this tourney, but from his IEM run it was kinda shaky in Code S. At this point all top tier korean pros seem to be super out of shape, including Maru, and have been there for a while with sudden spikes of good play. Probably because there is someone to measure their stability against. Dark? Classic? Maru was at the top for over a year, Dark is stable for ages, similarly Classic. It's not like there's no one, but it's harder to be stable in a harsher environment. The 2018 for Inno was weird, but now he appears to be in the stable mode again. What is more worrisome are the deep falls of some players(e.g. Rogue). Maru isn't playing much to judge his form per se, sadly. Nah they’ve been losing quite a lot of series randomly, this is not even close to being stable. Maru had a solid run in 2018, but that was 6 months ago and since then he played a few of really sloppy games. Serral just got demolished by stats and lost a series to neeb at wesg. Serral lost a premier tournament to reynor. Edit Forgot about soo at iem and innovation x2 Stats and Neeb has the best PvZ's in the world, Inno is a beast when he decides to be one, soO's win was foretold in Ancient Egyptian and Chinese times, and predicted in the Inca and Mayan cultures and Reynor was, well, vengeful... Now Serral wins two tournaments in a row, so yeah Not taking away from Stats, Neeb, Innovation, Soo, and Reynor, as they range from Code S caliber players to some of the greatest players of all time, but it shows that Serral is hardly "stable" if you want to compare him to the other elite Koreans. Nobody wins everything, and the Korean scene is brutal compared to what Serral competes in. Juggernauts like Classic, Innovation, Rogue, Stats and Maru get knocked out before the finals simply because they have to face elite opponent after elite opponent. All I'm saying is that even if you want to consider Serral the best player on the planet (and I don't believe he is but that's another conversation), you cant say that the elite koreans are out of shape just because they are constantly put through the meat grinder that is Korean SC2 while Serral just farms wins against foreigners for the most part So I looked it up because I was bored, going back to Jan 1 2018 Serral is 29-6 in offline BoX series against Korean players. That kind of dominance is pretty much unheard of. For comparison in that time frame Maru is 43-19 against Korean players. Dark is 48-20 (and 0-3 against Serral). Rogue was 26-6 at the end of 2017 and 4 of those losses were in SSL challenger where he didn't play serious.
In terms of win rates, his peak isn't much different from Inno or Rogue's (the other 2 highest of LotV; Maru had better run but weaker win rates) but he was more clutch than Inno or Rogue and that may have been why his match win rate was so high.
Edit: Parrek, I couldn't find the time period but he won 81/118 sets and went 28-5 in matches (against Koreans offline) from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice. Admittedly it's not really fair to compare that to Serral in 2018 because Serral peaked in the later half of the year and if you only looked at that his match winrate against Korean offline would be 100%.
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On July 01 2019 11:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 11:01 Parrek wrote:On July 01 2019 09:47 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 Parrek wrote:
So who do you all think will beat Serral in the power rankings next month? It's tradition at this point Are you implying a HSC win is worth more than a GSL win? On top of that, Serral keeps showing that nothing has really changed in his form. You mean except losing to soO, Inno*2, Reynor*2. Neeb, Stats and Heromarine? What has Serral done this year that gives him a case for best player?
In all honesty, Serral losing to 0-2 to Heromarine in WCS Winter (who he came back to sweep 3-0 when it mattered in the gauntlet run), 0-2 to Neeb in WESG and 0-2 to Stats in HSC are of no consequence as Serral made the finals in all 3 events and won one of them.
Even then, Neeb and Stats HAVE THE TWO BEST PvZ in the world, Neeb is arguably second only to Stats (Seriously, tell me another Korean Protoss with better vZ than Neeb, who constantly wins vs every zerg (except Dark))
Reynor may have beaten Serral 2 times in Winter, but look at Serral now, he beat Reynor 3-0 in WCS Spring, and 4-1 in Challenger for Europe. same with soO won 3-2 in IEM, lost to Serral 3-0 in this tournament.
Losing to soO and Stats is not shameful, Maru lost to Stats twice last year and soO is great at ZvZ.
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On July 01 2019 11:50 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 11:22 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 11:01 Parrek wrote:On July 01 2019 09:47 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 Parrek wrote:
So who do you all think will beat Serral in the power rankings next month? It's tradition at this point Are you implying a HSC win is worth more than a GSL win? On top of that, Serral keeps showing that nothing has really changed in his form. You mean except losing to soO, Inno*2, Reynor*2. Neeb, Stats and Heromarine? What has Serral done this year that gives him a case for best player? in all honesty, Serral losing 0-2 to Neeb in WESG and Stats this weekend is inconsequential as Serral made the finals in both events and won one of them. Even then, Neeb and Stats HAVE THE TWO BEST PvZ in the world, Neeb is arguably second only to Stats (Seriously, tell me another Korean Protoss with better vZ than Neeb, who constantly wins vs every zerg (except Dark))
maybe Classic but there's good argument that Neeb has 2nd best PvZ.
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Serral once again proving that he's the best Zerg in the world and maybe the best player in the world too. At least top 3.
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On July 01 2019 11:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 11:01 Parrek wrote:On July 01 2019 09:47 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 Parrek wrote:
So who do you all think will beat Serral in the power rankings next month? It's tradition at this point Are you implying a HSC win is worth more than a GSL win? On top of that, Serral keeps showing that nothing has really changed in his form. What has Serral done this year that gives him a case for best player?
He's reached the grand final in all 4 "premier" (as defined by liquipedia) tournaments he participated in this year. He won two of them and was one map away from winning the other two. Maybe you could name someone that has a better case for 2019 overall?
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On July 01 2019 11:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 11:01 Parrek wrote:On July 01 2019 09:47 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 Parrek wrote:
So who do you all think will beat Serral in the power rankings next month? It's tradition at this point Are you implying a HSC win is worth more than a GSL win? On top of that, Serral keeps showing that nothing has really changed in his form. You mean except losing to soO, Inno*2, Reynor*2. Neeb, Stats and Heromarine? What has Serral done this year that gives him a case for best player?
Do you mean.. apart from the four premier finals he's been in?
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It was an awesome final with a nail-biter game 7 and people are more cofused about arguing whose favorite player is #1 in a fictional ranking that has little to do with actual Starcraft tournaments :[
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United Kingdom10014 Posts
Has it occurred to anyone that you won't be able to say who the best player in the world is unless someone is winning GSL + weekend tournaments consistently?
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On July 01 2019 11:37 Parrek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 11:22 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 11:01 Parrek wrote:On July 01 2019 09:47 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 Parrek wrote:
So who do you all think will beat Serral in the power rankings next month? It's tradition at this point Are you implying a HSC win is worth more than a GSL win? On top of that, Serral keeps showing that nothing has really changed in his form. You mean except losing to soO, Inno*2, Reynor*2. Neeb, Stats and Heromarine? What has Serral done this year that gives him a case for best player? Losing to soO 2-3 in one of the best series of the event, crushing him 3-0 here, losing to Reynor twice, once in groups and 3-4 in the finals and crushing him 3-0 in the next event(see the trend here?)losing to Inno 1-2 after already guaranteeing first in his group, then losing to him 3-4 in the finals of WESG? Serral has only ever been eliminated in the ace match in an event. And with the exception of soO, only in the finals. How is that not more impressive? On top of that, we're talking about a player that doesn't train in Korea. He hasn't played thousands of hours against Korean Terrans, yet he still goes toe to toe against them. Top Korean Terrans are treated almost as a race of their own - the one group that foreigners really struggle with. Serral skipped all of that and performed by thinking about the matchup.
I didn't say it's bad but I don't think it's enough to give him a better case for best player than Maru/Dark/Classic who have actually won top tier tournaments this year.
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On July 01 2019 11:44 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 11:24 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 10:52 Amarillo Caballero wrote:On July 01 2019 10:06 BerserkSword wrote:On July 01 2019 09:28 AzAlexZ wrote:On July 01 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:On July 01 2019 09:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 09:07 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On July 01 2019 09:03 deacon.frost wrote:
[quote]
Innovation is in better form lately than TY is. Maybe TY starts getting better from this tourney, but from his IEM run it was kinda shaky in Code S. At this point all top tier korean pros seem to be super out of shape, including Maru, and have been there for a while with sudden spikes of good play. Probably because there is someone to measure their stability against. Dark? Classic? Maru was at the top for over a year, Dark is stable for ages, similarly Classic. It's not like there's no one, but it's harder to be stable in a harsher environment. The 2018 for Inno was weird, but now he appears to be in the stable mode again. What is more worrisome are the deep falls of some players(e.g. Rogue). Maru isn't playing much to judge his form per se, sadly. Nah they’ve been losing quite a lot of series randomly, this is not even close to being stable. Maru had a solid run in 2018, but that was 6 months ago and since then he played a few of really sloppy games. Serral just got demolished by stats and lost a series to neeb at wesg. Serral lost a premier tournament to reynor. Edit Forgot about soo at iem and innovation x2 Stats and Neeb has the best PvZ's in the world, Inno is a beast when he decides to be one, soO's win was foretold in Ancient Egyptian and Chinese times, and predicted in the Inca and Mayan cultures and Reynor was, well, vengeful... Now Serral wins two tournaments in a row, so yeah Not taking away from Stats, Neeb, Innovation, Soo, and Reynor, as they range from Code S caliber players to some of the greatest players of all time, but it shows that Serral is hardly "stable" if you want to compare him to the other elite Koreans. Nobody wins everything, and the Korean scene is brutal compared to what Serral competes in. Juggernauts like Classic, Innovation, Rogue, Stats and Maru get knocked out before the finals simply because they have to face elite opponent after elite opponent. All I'm saying is that even if you want to consider Serral the best player on the planet (and I don't believe he is but that's another conversation), you cant say that the elite koreans are out of shape just because they are constantly put through the meat grinder that is Korean SC2 while Serral just farms wins against foreigners for the most part So I looked it up because I was bored, going back to Jan 1 2018 Serral is 29-6 in offline BoX series against Korean players. That kind of dominance is pretty much unheard of. For comparison in that time frame Maru is 43-19 against Korean players. Dark is 48-20 (and 0-3 against Serral). Rogue was 26-6 at the end of 2017 and 4 of those losses were in SSL challenger where he didn't play serious. In terms of win rates, his peak isn't much different from Inno or Rogue's (the other 2 highest of LotV; Maru had better run but weaker win rates) but he was more clutch than Inno or Rogue and that may have been why his match win rate was so high. Edit: Parrek, I couldn't find the time period but he won 81/118 sets and went 28-5 in matches (against Koreans offline) from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice. Admittedly it's not really fair to compare that to Serral in 2018 because Serral peaked in the later half of the year and if you only looked at that his match winrate against Korean offline would be 100%.
That's true but it's also not fair to compare Serral's record vs koreans in one year to that of top koreans in one year because top koreans play way more matches vs koreans which leads to a way bigger sample size.
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On July 01 2019 11:38 akisa987 wrote:
Fact, Serral is the best zerg at the moment, and zerg is the most OP race at the moment, thus he's the best player in the world
Fact, Blizzard wants a foreigner to dominate the scene, even if it includes 'a little' imbalance in the game because it raises popularity, thus it raises their income
Fact, most of the major tournaments in the last 1.5 years are won by zerg
Fact, Zerg has won last two Blizzcons and will probably win 3rd one in a row this year as well
Fact, there are dozens of top players in Europe that are zergs and there are only two top level terran players. I wonder why is that. Some would say terran is hardest race to play and the zerg is the easiest one.
Putting "Fact" before your opinions and musings doesnt make them any more credible, you know.
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On July 01 2019 08:53 GumBa wrote:
What a legendary performance! Serral the god... The undeniable best player in the world, and current HSC champion. All of the Koreaboos (white guys cheering for koreans and sleeping with anime pillows) are left in shambles.
Actually it is a soO pillow I sleep with!
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On July 01 2019 20:32 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 08:53 GumBa wrote:
What a legendary performance! Serral the god... The undeniable best player in the world, and current HSC champion. All of the Koreaboos (white guys cheering for koreans and sleeping with anime pillows) are left in shambles.
Actually it is a soO pillow I sleep with!
Where can I get one? Asking for my friend*
+ Show Spoiler +
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I used to be in the "Serral overrated" camp given he hasn't been put through a grueling preparation tournament like GSL, but after 1.5 yrs of domination I think it's safe to say the Koreans can't crack him. Sure, someone occasionally exploits a vulnerability, e.g. Inno taking him into ultra late game or Stats smashing him over the weekend, but Serral is far less exploitable than the Korean zergs:
Dark cheese specialist
soO, mid-game specialist
Rogue late-game specialist
Serral does it all. He has the best decision making in SC2, the best scouting, Korean Terran-level multitasking, can play any style, has excellent grasp of game theory to make preparation against him difficult, and puts in the effort to study and exploit his opponents. Throw in his mental toughness, which I'd argue is stronger than Maru and certainly stronger than the choke artists that are Dark/soO/Rogue, and I think you have a player who is as close to perfection as we've seen in SC2.
BO7 in a big-money tournament, I'm taking Serral all day until Classic/Stats/Inno/Maru get back into top shape and stay there. (Excluding the Korean zergs because they have disappointed for too long and will have to do much more to prove they belong in the conversation, unless you think Dark beating hurricane, trap, etc. means he is back.)
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On July 01 2019 16:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 11:44 Anc13nt wrote:On July 01 2019 11:24 Charoisaur wrote:On July 01 2019 10:52 Amarillo Caballero wrote:On July 01 2019 10:06 BerserkSword wrote:On July 01 2019 09:28 AzAlexZ wrote:On July 01 2019 09:21 BerserkSword wrote:On July 01 2019 09:17 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:On July 01 2019 09:11 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 09:07 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
[quote]
At this point all top tier korean pros seem to be super out of shape, including Maru, and have been there for a while with sudden spikes of good play. Probably because there is someone to measure their stability against. Dark? Classic? Maru was at the top for over a year, Dark is stable for ages, similarly Classic. It's not like there's no one, but it's harder to be stable in a harsher environment. The 2018 for Inno was weird, but now he appears to be in the stable mode again. What is more worrisome are the deep falls of some players(e.g. Rogue). Maru isn't playing much to judge his form per se, sadly. Nah they’ve been losing quite a lot of series randomly, this is not even close to being stable. Maru had a solid run in 2018, but that was 6 months ago and since then he played a few of really sloppy games. Serral just got demolished by stats and lost a series to neeb at wesg. Serral lost a premier tournament to reynor. Edit Forgot about soo at iem and innovation x2 Stats and Neeb has the best PvZ's in the world, Inno is a beast when he decides to be one, soO's win was foretold in Ancient Egyptian and Chinese times, and predicted in the Inca and Mayan cultures and Reynor was, well, vengeful... Now Serral wins two tournaments in a row, so yeah Not taking away from Stats, Neeb, Innovation, Soo, and Reynor, as they range from Code S caliber players to some of the greatest players of all time, but it shows that Serral is hardly "stable" if you want to compare him to the other elite Koreans. Nobody wins everything, and the Korean scene is brutal compared to what Serral competes in. Juggernauts like Classic, Innovation, Rogue, Stats and Maru get knocked out before the finals simply because they have to face elite opponent after elite opponent. All I'm saying is that even if you want to consider Serral the best player on the planet (and I don't believe he is but that's another conversation), you cant say that the elite koreans are out of shape just because they are constantly put through the meat grinder that is Korean SC2 while Serral just farms wins against foreigners for the most part So I looked it up because I was bored, going back to Jan 1 2018 Serral is 29-6 in offline BoX series against Korean players. That kind of dominance is pretty much unheard of. For comparison in that time frame Maru is 43-19 against Korean players. Dark is 48-20 (and 0-3 against Serral). Rogue was 26-6 at the end of 2017 and 4 of those losses were in SSL challenger where he didn't play serious. In terms of win rates, his peak isn't much different from Inno or Rogue's (the other 2 highest of LotV; Maru had better run but weaker win rates) but he was more clutch than Inno or Rogue and that may have been why his match win rate was so high. Edit: Parrek, I couldn't find the time period but he won 81/118 sets and went 28-5 in matches (against Koreans offline) from IEM Shanghai to IEM Katowice. Admittedly it's not really fair to compare that to Serral in 2018 because Serral peaked in the later half of the year and if you only looked at that his match winrate against Korean offline would be 100%. That's true but it's also not fair to compare Serral's record vs koreans in one year to that of top koreans in one year because top koreans play way more matches vs koreans which leads to a way bigger sample size.
Sure it's a bigger sample size, but Serral still plays enough to be relevant. It's not like he plays like 3 matches a year vs Koreans.
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The context that should be given about Serral's winrate isn't really the sample size, it's the fact his Korean opposition is way tougher than what other players meet, ffs on HSC he played vs Stats/soO/TYX2, if he was doing GSL Ro32 or Olimo League his winrate would be higher.
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EPT
