EPTIn regard to the daily balance discussion: I have to say I dread the day an absolute mechanical beast gets his hands on protoss, I think the sky is the limit when someone manages to control those disruptors and stalkers masterfully. So much potential to dictate the pace of the game. Until thats the case I don´t really think big changes are needed, its just that with the nature of the races it always looks silliest when protoss is on top of the pyramid.
[GSL 2019] Season 2 - Semifinals Day 2 - Page 7
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
In regard to the daily balance discussion: I have to say I dread the day an absolute mechanical beast gets his hands on protoss, I think the sky is the limit when someone manages to control those disruptors and stalkers masterfully. So much potential to dictate the pace of the game. Until thats the case I don´t really think big changes are needed, its just that with the nature of the races it always looks silliest when protoss is on top of the pyramid. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 15 2019 15:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I could find other games but there's no real point since you'd quibble about it not being perfect immortal vs lurker monobattles. Doesn't make your statements any less false. nice job taking that one post out of context it has nothing to do with lurker vs immortal monobattles lol? obviously 14 immortals + 46 supply of support is going to beat 12 lurkers + 20 supply of support. show me something where a lurker deathball like darks loses to a protoss ground army just accept the fact that my statement is correct, you and couldnt find any game to prove otherwise. there's nothing wrong with that On June 15 2019 19:12 Nakajin wrote: Booh, Dark killed the fun  Disruptors? It's the classic response right? Pheonix can also work with Immortals/storm if there isn't a lot of hydras (lift a bunch of lurkers, storm the hydra, rush in with immortals) disruptors are actually bad vs Lurkers phoenix immortal storm isnt a thing. it's too gas expensive to be able to beat lurker hydra ling | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 16 2019 00:41 BerserkSword wrote: nice job taking that one post out of context it has nothing to do with lurker vs immortal monobattles lol? obviously 14 immortals + 46 supply of support is going to beat 12 lurkers + 20 supply of support. show me something where a lurker deathball like darks loses to a protoss ground army just accept the fact that my statement is correct, you and couldnt find any game to prove otherwise. there's nothing wrong with that disruptors are actually bad vs Lurkers phoenix immortal storm isnt a thing. it's too gas expensive to be able to beat lurker hydra ling Sure dude. Check out Game 4. I wonder what technicality you'll use to claim it wasn't a lurker deathball. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 16 2019 01:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Sure dude. Check out Game 4. https://youtu.be/tQCwwFtCCTo?t=1674 I wonder what technicality you'll use to claim it wasn't a lurker deathball. Game 4 just proves my point. First engagement with high lurker count - rogue lets zest kill all his non lurker units for free (at least 10 hydras and a good amount of lings) and rogue's 15 or so lurkers (some of which are weakened by storms) still destroy 8 immortals, 2 archons, and a couple of zealots. so equal supply of lurkers alone kills equal supply of their supposed hard counters the final engagement was 12 lurkers vs 8 immortals and 6 archons. obviously if you bum rush 36 supply of lurkers with 32 supply of immortals, 24 supply of archons, and with chargelots pouring in after, the lurkers will lose replace with a deathball of 19 lurkers and double digit hydras and see what happens to the protoss army | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 16 2019 00:28 kyllinghest wrote: No player looks better than Dark does when he is winning. Completely dominating opponents! I have an inkling the grand finals are gonna be awesome,and whoever wins will have played a fantastic season! In regard to the daily balance discussion: I have to say I dread the day an absolute mechanical beast gets his hands on protoss, I think the sky is the limit when someone manages to control those disruptors and stalkers masterfully. So much potential to dictate the pace of the game. Until thats the case I don´t really think big changes are needed, its just that with the nature of the races it always looks silliest when protoss is on top of the pyramid. Lol Typical disrespect towards the Protoss greats Acting like mechanical beasts have never touched the race | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On June 16 2019 03:25 BerserkSword wrote: Lol Typical disrespect towards the Protoss greats Acting like mechanical beasts have never touched the race This was not at all meant as a disrespect towards players of any race, it was my thoughts on the future of SC2. I really do think there will come faster and more precise players, giving us even greater games in the future. Its possible to say Nadal is the best on clay without that being disrespectful to Bjørn Borg. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 16 2019 03:49 kyllinghest wrote: This was not at all meant as a disrespect towards players of any race, it was my thoughts on the future of SC2. I really do think there will come faster and more precise players, giving us even greater games in the future. Its possible to say Nadal is the best on clay without that being disrespectful to Bjørn Borg. I don’t think it’s possible without some pretty big changes It feels the current crop have pushed as far as they can, or at least close to it, at least mechanically. I think this is why you have a bunch of Protoss who are pretty similarly good mechanically, what differentiates them is more style and strategy. There’s a clear gap, purely mechanically between the very best Zergs and Terrans than the next tier of players, that just doesn’t really feel is there so much with Protoss. Stalkers have too low DPS and melt too quickly as engagements scale in size for us to really see anything more than we’ve seen in SC2 history. There’s not really anywhere to go with stuff like blink micro I can see Protoss potential in some areas, for example people turning off charge on autocast when they’re doing worker harass, as it drags them away from worker lines Aside from that I could see some growth in terms of compositions that are fragile but really powerful and require incredible control, but could be potent if mastered. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On June 16 2019 04:07 Wombat_NI wrote: It feels the current crop have pushed as far as they can, or at least close to it, at least mechanically. I think this is why you have a bunch of Protoss who are pretty similarly good mechanically, what differentiates them is more style and strategy. There’s a clear gap, purely mechanically between the very best Zergs and Terrans than the next tier of players, that just doesn’t really feel is there so much with Protoss. Stalkers have too low DPS and melt too quickly as engagements scale in size for us to really see anything more than we’ve seen in SC2 history. There’s not really anywhere to go with stuff like blink micro I can see Protoss potential in some areas, for example people turning off charge on autocast when they’re doing worker harass, as it drags them away from worker lines Aside from that I could see some growth in terms of compositions that are fragile but really powerful and require incredible control, but could be potent if mastered. My thoughts on the stalkers are mostly about the ability to control the early game and therefore dictate the pace of the game. I believe there are loads of stuff that can be done marginally better here, like targetfire with a group within the group etc, and together it will snowball. Would take an absolute sick player though, but new talent will emerge. The thing I think will make protoss strong in the future is what you write about in your last sentence. Especially the disruptor has nearly endless potential, in my opinion. I guess only time will tell. For now I think we´re in for one heck of a final! | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 16 2019 02:38 BerserkSword wrote: Game 4 just proves my point. First engagement with high lurker count - rogue lets zest kill all his non lurker units for free (at least 10 hydras and a good amount of lings) and rogue's 15 or so lurkers (some of which are weakened by storms) still destroy 8 immortals, 2 archons, and a couple of zealots. so equal supply of lurkers alone kills equal supply of their supposed hard counters the final engagement was 12 lurkers vs 8 immortals and 6 archons. obviously if you bum rush 36 supply of lurkers with 32 supply of immortals, 24 supply of archons, and with chargelots pouring in after, the lurkers will lose replace with a deathball of 19 lurkers and double digit hydras and see what happens to the protoss army Yeah this was a complete waste of time. I can give you a game where Protoss uses a ground army to beat a lurker deathball. But nothing's going to convince you if your "counter-argument" is: "What if zerg magically got an extra half-dozen lurkers and a dozen hydras?" | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 16 2019 04:38 kyllinghest wrote: My thoughts on the stalkers are mostly about the ability to control the early game and therefore dictate the pace of the game. I believe there are loads of stuff that can be done marginally better here, like targetfire with a group within the group etc, and together it will snowball. Would take an absolute sick player though, but new talent will emerge. The thing I think will make protoss strong in the future is what you write about in your last sentence. Especially the disruptor has nearly endless potential, in my opinion. I guess only time will tell. For now I think we´re in for one heck of a final! do not count out the adept.one unit could singlehandedly change how protoss should be played until uncle blizz messed with zealot and Colossus and thus, players are back to deathball style again but this really limits the micro potential of one player | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 16 2019 04:38 kyllinghest wrote: My thoughts on the stalkers are mostly about the ability to control the early game and therefore dictate the pace of the game. I believe there are loads of stuff that can be done marginally better here, like targetfire with a group within the group etc, and together it will snowball. Would take an absolute sick player though, but new talent will emerge. The thing I think will make protoss strong in the future is what you write about in your last sentence. Especially the disruptor has nearly endless potential, in my opinion. I guess only time will tell. For now I think we´re in for one heck of a final! I don’t think it’s possible with Stalkers, I think we’ll maybe see marginal improvements They just don’t scale with how the game works. Early to midgame PvP you see pretty insane micro frequently, using all sorts of different units, top Protoss players are capable of it. Bigger engagements, especially against other races, stuff just melts way way too fast to do much but roughly position and blink As you say I think there’s room for some real high skill compositions, but I’m not sure if they’ll be explored anytime soon because they just might be too difficult to do reliably, or worth it to gain an edge. Disruptors especially feel they have such potential, if someone could continually cycle disruptor shots, never be on cooldown, and ferry them around in a prism to compensate for their weaknesses, while controlling other units. Which would be absolutely sick if someone could do it really well, but the potential for things to go wrong is really high too. | ||
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