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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:23 seemsgood wrote: not right composition not right position not right storm usage He saw lurkers on the bottom left of the map. Why the fuck would he push thru the middle letting him burrow between his 3rd and 4th? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 15:16 BerserkSword wrote: that's not a a lurker death ball that's 12 lurkers, 5 hydras, and a few lings, vs 14 immortals, 4 archons, 5 high templar, and a few zealots Dark took the bulk of his hydras away from his lurker army to attack dear's base. I could find other games but there's no real point since you'd quibble about it not being perfect immortal vs lurker monobattles. Doesn't make your statements any less false. On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant Hahahahahaha what | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I can't help but stress once more how ridicolous it would be to have a Zerg champ after entire months of people crying about Protoss being op(again, all this overwhelming Protoss presence in the playoffs generates a non mirror final). I am tempted to root for Trap hoping to witness to the birth of a new star, even if it would be time for a Zerg to win Code S in LoTV. | ||
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fastr
France902 Posts
I can't help but stress once more how ridicolous it would be to have a Zerg champ after entire months of people crying about Protoss being op(again, all this overwhelming Protoss presence in the playoffs generates a non mirror final). You realize that based on the principle of sample size, 5 protoss in ro8 or 3 protoss in ro4 are more meaningful statistics than whoever ends up winning or making the finals? This is the same tired argument protoss apologists made for all of 2018 when protoss was already OP yet Maru won 3 GSL, giving birth to the "just play like Maru" meme. So the new meme is gonna be "just play like Dark" now? | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:01 Xain0n wrote: Trap vs Dark is the best final we could get; I fail to see why everyone is convinced Dark is going to win this while Classic would have been the favourite to take it I can't help but stress once more how ridicolous it would be to have a Zerg champ after entire months of people crying about Protoss being op(again, all this overwhelming Protoss presence in the playoffs generates a non mirror final). I am tempted to root for Trap hoping to witness to the birth of a new star, even if it would be time for a Zerg to win Code S in LoTV. The whole ''everyone has a plan until they get 12 pooled'' is great for players worse than you, but its very risky against good players. Classic certainly would not get behind Dark from these attacks(hurricane even misplaced a pylon that should power 2 gateways in Cobalt, didn't use hold position and let Dark bait his Zealot out) and you can see in his series against Classic from last GSL that he respects Classic too much to try this shit. Now the question is: Is Trap another Classic or is he a patchtoss like Hurricane? I don't want Zerg to win GSL again, and its not because i hate the race. I wan't Life's 2015 win to stay there like a gravestone to remind everyone who the best Zerg is. So everytime people say ''There is no Zerg champion for X years'' they all have to remember the one they pretend to forget. 4 years later and none of the pretenders can do what he did. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:10 fastr wrote: You realize that based on the principle of sample size, 5 protoss in ro8 or 3 protoss in ro4 are more meaningful statistics than whoever ends up winning or making the finals? This is the same tired argument protoss apologists made for all of 2018 when protoss was already OP yet Maru won 3 GSL, giving birth to the "just play like Maru" meme. So the new meme is gonna be "just play like Dark" now? I realize that a truly op race is going to have a very high global win ratio overall and that it is going to completely dominate tournaments, generating a lot of mirror finals. We can discuss Protoss being op now(I don't think that's the case but it's undeniable they look like the strongest race, in GSL at least), there is no way they already were in 2018. The hate against Protoss surprises me because it does not have solid foundations, I have played and followed many RTS and I have seen true imbalance and definitely it is not what we are experiencing at the moment(look no further than GoMTvT). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:18 Morbidius wrote: The whole ''everyone has a plan until they get 12 pooled'' is great for players worse than you, but its very risky against good players. Classic certainly would not get behind Dark from these attacks(hurricane even misplaced a pylon that should power 2 gateways in Cobalt, didn't use hold position and let Dark bait his Zealot out) and you can see in his series against Classic from last GSL that he respects Classic too much to try this shit. Now the question is: Is Trap another Classic or is he a patchtoss like Hurricane? I don't want Zerg to win GSL again, and its not because i hate the race. I wan't Life's 2015 win to stay there like a gravestone to remind everyone who the best Zerg is. So everytime people say ''There is no Zerg champion for X years'' they all have to remember the one they pretend to forget. 4 years later and none of the pretenders can do what he did. It wouldn't be smart for Dark to undervalue one player he already holds a losing record against. Trap was already on the rise before last patch:he reached ro4 in Season 1, unlike Hurricane who crashed 0-2 out of ro32. Dark can't end his career without a Code S title, I'm just not sure I'd prefer he would be the one winning this season. I don't think that anyone can forget that Life was the best Zerg. | ||
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fastr
France902 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:22 Xain0n wrote: I realize that a truly op race is going to have a very high global win ratio overall and that it is going to completely dominate tournaments, generating a lot of mirror finals. We can discuss Protoss being op now(I don't think that's the case but it's undeniable they look like the strongest race, in GSL at least), there is no way they already were in 2018. The hate against Protoss surprises me because it does not have solid foundations, I have played and followed many RTS and I have seen true imbalance and definitely it is not what we are experiencing at the moment(look no further than GoMTvT). There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). I am saying that Protoss are not broken, I have never mentioned perfect balance while instead bringing you examples of what happens when one race is truly overpowered(many mirror finals and so on). GSL being extremely Protoss heavy this year is the reason for that top 8 representation, 7/31 Protoss were in Super Tournament alone(which had a very wacky ro8 composition just as much as IEM Katowice); as for win percentage I am referring to Aligulac: Protoss in 2019 had more than 50% overall and, on 13 reports, went above 55% twice(in PvZ) while going as low as 41% in PvZ in one of them. Protoss would surely benefit of balance changes lowering their flexibility in all-ins and timing pushes while strenghtening back their late game options; they are in a good spot right now if they end the game early(and they have the tools to do so) but 53% of people on TL believing they are "too strong" is pure mass hysteria. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
Also besides 13/12 game, Dark really smashed Hurricane. Maybe first zerg Code S champ since 2015? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). Honestly, don"t waste your time on him. It's pointless. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
So we loaded the vod for semis and it is less than two hours. Considering the classic GSL downtime it looked like a quick 4-0. So first game, dark wins, great. Second game, what the fuck? Turns out PvZ is not a very drawn-out matchup these days  Now I really hope for Dark to win to maintain the continuous fallacy of "protoss can't be OP, look they haven't won a GSL in ages". | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
 On June 15 2019 14:35 BerserkSword wrote: i want to see a Pro tournament replay where protoss can use a ground army to beat a lurker death ball immortals dont handle a composition with a critical mass of lurkers just like how at high enough numbers siege tanks can fight immortals. immortals are slower and more expensive than lurkers. lurkers range of 10 shreds anything protoss can throw at it Disruptors? It's the classic response right? Pheonix can also work with Immortals/storm if there isn't a lot of hydras (lift a bunch of lurkers, storm the hydra, rush in with immortals) | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 19:10 opisska wrote: Wow, 6 pages for a GSL semis, this is truly the darkest timeline. So we loaded the vod for semis and it is less than two hours. Considering the classic GSL downtime it looked like a quick 4-0. So first game, dark wins, great. Second game, what the fuck? Turns out PvZ is not a very drawn-out matchup these days Now I really hope for Dark to win to maintain the continuous fallacy of "protoss can't be OP, look they haven't won a GSL in ages". Has anyone ever said that? Classic just won Super Tournament, and the last non Terran winning a Code S was Stats(more than two years ago). | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25559 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:59 Akio wrote: Why does Tasteless keep saying sunken cost fallacy instead of sunk? Also besides 13/12 game, Dark really smashed Hurricane. Maybe first zerg Code S champ since 2015? It's actually the spine cost fallacy now, and it has been since WoL. I think Dark knew how to put on pressure and that Hurricane wouldn't be able to take it. Some stuff had me really grieving, like the zealot mismicro in that wall, but a lot of it felt like Dark was able to keep Hurricane contained, get up a base, and be ahead all game in army, tech, workers, map control, and upgrades. While I enjoy the PvP games, it'll be fun to see a PvZ final! | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). Proportion arguments are problematic when Terran are underrepresented in the highest levels of the Circuit and Zerg are underrepresented in the highest levels of Korea and have been for years and are unrelated to the state of balance. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26740 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). You have to fix a lot though and they’ve been reticent to do this. I’d be happy with something more radical, people just want to neuter Protoss because they are annoyed by the race. They’re easier to play to a certain level, there is less mileage you can get out of them at the very highest level, mechanically anyway. The rotating book of Protoss bullshit is basically necessary for Protoss to be relevant at the highest level. Which annoys me as a viewer, but also as a Protoss player because stylistically relying on all-ins and weird mindgames isn’t really how I like to play. Your data is correct but it’s only a part of the picture IMO, it assumes equivalent skill across the player base of each race. I’d be interested to see how matchups went vs Aligulac ratings for example, if matchups are generally going with the Aligulac prediction, or Aligulac is frequently getting it wrong, and what matchups that occurs in. Of course Aligulac isn’t perfect but it’s the closest rating tool we have than going off intuition. Ladder I think is always going to skew Protoss by design because it’s ladder and you play a lot of different opponents in Bo1s irregularly. You can have a few all-ins for each matchup and just execute them, whereas a ladder Zerg has to learn how to recognise and respond to a whole multitude of them. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26740 Posts
On June 15 2019 19:37 Blazinghand wrote: It's actually the spine cost fallacy now, and it has been since WoL. I think Dark knew how to put on pressure and that Hurricane wouldn't be able to take it. Some stuff had me really grieving, like the zealot mismicro in that wall, but a lot of it felt like Dark was able to keep Hurricane contained, get up a base, and be ahead all game in army, tech, workers, map control, and upgrades. While I enjoy the PvP games, it'll be fun to see a PvZ final! I need to see more Dark games in this matchup for sure. With herO I felt herO made some really stupid mistakes, Hurricane made some too, but this series it definitely felt Dark was forcing errors rather than relying on his opponent doing something wrong. I’m trying to figure out if Dark is figuring out how to interrupt the Protoss flow and delay those sharp timings enough that Protoss players have to transition away from their original gameplans, then Dark powers hardcore and if this is a reliable way to play the matchup from the Zerg side. Hoping both Trap and Dark bring their A game for the finals for sure. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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