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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51452 Posts
 GSL Season 2Streams & CastersFormat
Map Pool SemifinalsResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51452 Posts
Poll: Hurricane vs Dark Dark Wins (21) Hurricane Wins (6) 27 total votes Your vote: Hurricane vs Dark | ||
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TameNaken
Australia361 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On June 15 2019 11:25 TameNaken wrote: Dark is going to break Maru's record for fastest GSL semifinals 4-0 slap. If he loses here he'll also match Maru's record for most GSL ro4 losses. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17601 Posts
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mpmaley86
115 Posts
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Moonerz
United States442 Posts
Hopefully we get some good games tonight though | ||
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
Hurricane 4-3 Dark Soultrain for the wiiiiiiiiiiiin!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
Waxangel
United States33171 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:07 Waxangel wrote: I'm here for the riot We all are brother. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2019 12:48 ByuuN wrote: Believe in Protoss boys Hurricane 4-3 Dark Soultrain for the wiiiiiiiiiiiin!!!!!!!!!!!! no zerg in final for 2 years btw | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
Edit: Hurricane would definitely be in a good spot if he has sending his DTs after drones. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33171 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17601 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
I feel like a player like dark will have less economy and a much later broodlords than macro players like serral. Its pointless to even base the play around harass against dark since he doesnt make more than 45 drones for long time neways. Dont commit 2 archons and 1 warp prism to harass early, no warp prism immortal harass nothing that can be risky if you lose all. Just slowly get a super deathball defensively and hit right before broods. Best plan against dark. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:27 Morbidius wrote: I think Nydus will be the next big complaint. Its recalls+ Warp prism on steroids and the cost reductions are really encouraging zergs to master it for more than allins. which is gud because this structure s been used for all in and cheese for way too long even davey couldnt get rid of its main usage | ||
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Waxangel
United States33171 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:31 starkiller123 wrote: How could anyone say they like that build lol he got free advantage against Patience when he went Nexus first—maybe he had a read on Turbo Cruise  | ||
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Carminedust
487 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:32 seemsgood wrote: which is gud because this structure s been used for all in and cheese for way too long even davey couldnt get rid of its main usage Its scary as hell, but i think its kinda in check because broods can't get in. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:33 Morbidius wrote: Its scary as hell, but i think its kinda in check because broods can't get in. I wonder if you can send broodlings through the nydus... | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:35 starkiller123 wrote: I wonder if you can send broodlings through the nydus... No. Temporary units can't go in. | ||
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starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
Rip the dream is dead | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
Blizzard keeps taking the FUN out of this game.Would be kinda cool to see someone cast a lot of infested terrans on top of the nydus and send them to attack a base. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:30 Snakestyle11 wrote: I feel like hurricane should just play super safe with late third to seem like its all in but then play super defensive until well balanced super ground unit army and hit right before broodlords. I feel like a player like dark will have less economy and a much later broodlords than macro players like serral. Its pointless to even base the play around harass against dark since he doesnt make more than 45 drones for long time neways. Dont commit 2 archons and 1 warp prism to harass early, no warp prism immortal harass nothing that can be risky if you lose all. Just slowly get a super deathball defensively and hit right before broods. Best plan against dark. completely disagree just because Dark does not play macro games as frequently as Serral and Rogue, doesn't mean he can't do it. He is a very flexible player and can be a macro beast if it comes down to it... and if i were hurricane i wouldnt want to rely on macro games in PvZ where Zerg gets out of control Dark often stops making drones because he's very good at reacting to what the opponent is doing. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
zerg players : hold my fucking moutain dew | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:38 Morbidius wrote: Blizzard keeps taking the FUN out of this game.Would be kinda cool to see someone cast a lot of infested terrans on top of the nydus and send them to attack a base. Blizz. is the only thing preventing hallucinated colossi in Nydus from becoming meta. edit: Hurricane's efforts at getting rid of the overseer in his main are really lackluster. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36949 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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sOvrn
United States678 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:51 Morbidius wrote: Hurricane is brutally outclassed here. Agreed. I think he did that cheese game 2 just because he doesn't like the map. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2019 13:50 IshinShishi wrote: not even close guess no one will ever question about dark s macro again | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
 and scout last from hurricane hahahah what is this 2011?And dark destroyed hurricane once again O_O. | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
One funny strategy that I haven't seen is a while is to blanket them with forcefields so that they can't unburrow, but Hurricane didn't have enough sentries for that. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Burrow roach is more style points. One funny strategy that I haven't seen is a while is to blanket them with forcefields so that they can't unburrow, but Hurricane didn't have enough sentries for that. he didnt expect burrow upgrade also. thats why there was no observer in position | ||
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TentativePanda
United States800 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:02 fastr wrote: This series encompasses everything that's wrong with the current state of balance. A patchtoss getting absolutely manhandled by a chad zerg. Infestors might be OP but Dark is destroying him with early aggressions while Hurricane has donated more warp prisms than Chad 'Colossus donating' Jones, what a shit show Lmao I appreciate this post a lot. Honestly in recent history the balance/state of the game was really good. I think something people overlook often is that players win by optimizing strats that often abuse units to the extreme and result in sorta "cheap" strategies. You kinda have to purposefully change the meta to produce more entertaining matches. I do enjoy the knowledge of the game displayed by pros to some extent though. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:04 seemsgood wrote: he didnt expect burrow upgrade also. thats why there was no observer in position Clearly showing less preparedness than players had during the highest skilled era*: *hybrid proleague that is | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
Zerg: All-in before protoss can all-in. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33171 Posts
Dark wasn't being aggressive to stop Hurricane's all-ins, he was afraid of his macro  | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33171 Posts
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Psychotikah
Canada101 Posts
Let's get this GSL trophy! | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3090 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
I hope Dark vs Trap will be good. Historically Trap has done well against Dark, but recently his PvZ has been more iffy. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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fastr
France901 Posts
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agsub
Singapore368 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:23 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Welp. Not the right composition Hurricane. I hope Dark vs Trap will be good. Historically Trap has done well against Dark, but recently his PvZ has been more iffy. not right composition not right position not right storm usage | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
Protoss armies just evaporate if the zerg has the right composition. Give zerg its creep and queen back and call it a day | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:23 seemsgood wrote: not right composition not right position not right storm usage Well I don't think there was a right storm usage given that there were 19 lurkers and each lurker has 200 hp. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
storm use was irrelevant | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant what about many immortals and archons ? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant Enough immortals can also work. | ||
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Snakestyle11
191 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant Nah just have billions immortals and get a few disruptors once ur really high supply. I dont think hurricane had many immortals at all for multiple reasons. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
in low numbers they work but against a 5 base zerg that can morph in 19 lurkers at once it's useless. dark is smart and doesnt go lurkers in low numbers | ||
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yoshi245
United States2969 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant Hurricane had no economy compared to Dark, he also had a really bad comp. Zealot/Immo/Archon can defeated lurker comps. | ||
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
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Aesto
44 Posts
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
immortals dont handle a composition with a critical mass of lurkers just like how at high enough numbers siege tanks can fight immortals. immortals are slower and more expensive than lurkers. lurkers range of 10 shreds anything protoss can throw at it | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:28 BerserkSword wrote: in low numbers they work but against a 5 base zerg that can morph in 19 lurkers at once it's useless. dark is smart and doesnt go lurkers in low numbers 5 bases are too much.unless protoss/terran is equal on expand getting overwhelmed by zerg eco is working as intended.thats how zerg works | ||
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Psychonian
United States2322 Posts
GGs to dark though, and Trap vs Dark should be an interesting match | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:36 seemsgood wrote: 5 bases are too much.unless protoss/terran is equal on expand getting overwhelmed by zerg eco is working as intended.thats how zerg works yes i understand that part. I was just referring to your post that about the storm usage and comp doesnt matter how good hurricane's storm usage wouldve been or how good his ground comp was. there's virtually nothing ground toss could do against a high econ zerg that just busted out 19 lurkers the splash and range is just absurd compared to what protoss ground armies can do in return | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:35 BerserkSword wrote: i want to see a Pro tournament replay where protoss can use a ground army to beat a lurker death ball immortals dont handle a composition with a critical mass of lurkers just like how at high enough numbers siege tanks can fight immortals. immortals are slower and more expensive than lurkers. lurkers range of 10 shreds anything protoss can throw at it Here: This isn't super-recent and immortals do cost 25 minerals more now, but this is the best example of immortal vs lurker play I could think of/find without too much thought. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:58 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlnYOeqtJI4 This isn't super-recent and immortals do cost 25 minerals more now, but this is the best example of immortal vs lurker play I could think of/find without too much thought. that's not a a lurker death ball that's 12 lurkers, 5 hydras, and a few lings, vs 14 immortals, 4 archons, 5 high templar, and a few zealots Dark took the bulk of his hydras away from his lurker army to attack dear's base. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:23 seemsgood wrote: not right composition not right position not right storm usage He saw lurkers on the bottom left of the map. Why the fuck would he push thru the middle letting him burrow between his 3rd and 4th? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2019 15:16 BerserkSword wrote: that's not a a lurker death ball that's 12 lurkers, 5 hydras, and a few lings, vs 14 immortals, 4 archons, 5 high templar, and a few zealots Dark took the bulk of his hydras away from his lurker army to attack dear's base. I could find other games but there's no real point since you'd quibble about it not being perfect immortal vs lurker monobattles. Doesn't make your statements any less false. On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On June 15 2019 14:26 BerserkSword wrote: the only real way for protoss to beat lurkers is by going tempest/carrier storm use was irrelevant Hahahahahaha what | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I can't help but stress once more how ridicolous it would be to have a Zerg champ after entire months of people crying about Protoss being op(again, all this overwhelming Protoss presence in the playoffs generates a non mirror final). I am tempted to root for Trap hoping to witness to the birth of a new star, even if it would be time for a Zerg to win Code S in LoTV. | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
I can't help but stress once more how ridicolous it would be to have a Zerg champ after entire months of people crying about Protoss being op(again, all this overwhelming Protoss presence in the playoffs generates a non mirror final). You realize that based on the principle of sample size, 5 protoss in ro8 or 3 protoss in ro4 are more meaningful statistics than whoever ends up winning or making the finals? This is the same tired argument protoss apologists made for all of 2018 when protoss was already OP yet Maru won 3 GSL, giving birth to the "just play like Maru" meme. So the new meme is gonna be "just play like Dark" now? | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:01 Xain0n wrote: Trap vs Dark is the best final we could get; I fail to see why everyone is convinced Dark is going to win this while Classic would have been the favourite to take it I can't help but stress once more how ridicolous it would be to have a Zerg champ after entire months of people crying about Protoss being op(again, all this overwhelming Protoss presence in the playoffs generates a non mirror final). I am tempted to root for Trap hoping to witness to the birth of a new star, even if it would be time for a Zerg to win Code S in LoTV. The whole ''everyone has a plan until they get 12 pooled'' is great for players worse than you, but its very risky against good players. Classic certainly would not get behind Dark from these attacks(hurricane even misplaced a pylon that should power 2 gateways in Cobalt, didn't use hold position and let Dark bait his Zealot out) and you can see in his series against Classic from last GSL that he respects Classic too much to try this shit. Now the question is: Is Trap another Classic or is he a patchtoss like Hurricane? I don't want Zerg to win GSL again, and its not because i hate the race. I wan't Life's 2015 win to stay there like a gravestone to remind everyone who the best Zerg is. So everytime people say ''There is no Zerg champion for X years'' they all have to remember the one they pretend to forget. 4 years later and none of the pretenders can do what he did. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:10 fastr wrote: You realize that based on the principle of sample size, 5 protoss in ro8 or 3 protoss in ro4 are more meaningful statistics than whoever ends up winning or making the finals? This is the same tired argument protoss apologists made for all of 2018 when protoss was already OP yet Maru won 3 GSL, giving birth to the "just play like Maru" meme. So the new meme is gonna be "just play like Dark" now? I realize that a truly op race is going to have a very high global win ratio overall and that it is going to completely dominate tournaments, generating a lot of mirror finals. We can discuss Protoss being op now(I don't think that's the case but it's undeniable they look like the strongest race, in GSL at least), there is no way they already were in 2018. The hate against Protoss surprises me because it does not have solid foundations, I have played and followed many RTS and I have seen true imbalance and definitely it is not what we are experiencing at the moment(look no further than GoMTvT). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:18 Morbidius wrote: The whole ''everyone has a plan until they get 12 pooled'' is great for players worse than you, but its very risky against good players. Classic certainly would not get behind Dark from these attacks(hurricane even misplaced a pylon that should power 2 gateways in Cobalt, didn't use hold position and let Dark bait his Zealot out) and you can see in his series against Classic from last GSL that he respects Classic too much to try this shit. Now the question is: Is Trap another Classic or is he a patchtoss like Hurricane? I don't want Zerg to win GSL again, and its not because i hate the race. I wan't Life's 2015 win to stay there like a gravestone to remind everyone who the best Zerg is. So everytime people say ''There is no Zerg champion for X years'' they all have to remember the one they pretend to forget. 4 years later and none of the pretenders can do what he did. It wouldn't be smart for Dark to undervalue one player he already holds a losing record against. Trap was already on the rise before last patch:he reached ro4 in Season 1, unlike Hurricane who crashed 0-2 out of ro32. Dark can't end his career without a Code S title, I'm just not sure I'd prefer he would be the one winning this season. I don't think that anyone can forget that Life was the best Zerg. | ||
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fastr
France901 Posts
On June 15 2019 17:22 Xain0n wrote: I realize that a truly op race is going to have a very high global win ratio overall and that it is going to completely dominate tournaments, generating a lot of mirror finals. We can discuss Protoss being op now(I don't think that's the case but it's undeniable they look like the strongest race, in GSL at least), there is no way they already were in 2018. The hate against Protoss surprises me because it does not have solid foundations, I have played and followed many RTS and I have seen true imbalance and definitely it is not what we are experiencing at the moment(look no further than GoMTvT). There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). I am saying that Protoss are not broken, I have never mentioned perfect balance while instead bringing you examples of what happens when one race is truly overpowered(many mirror finals and so on). GSL being extremely Protoss heavy this year is the reason for that top 8 representation, 7/31 Protoss were in Super Tournament alone(which had a very wacky ro8 composition just as much as IEM Katowice); as for win percentage I am referring to Aligulac: Protoss in 2019 had more than 50% overall and, on 13 reports, went above 55% twice(in PvZ) while going as low as 41% in PvZ in one of them. Protoss would surely benefit of balance changes lowering their flexibility in all-ins and timing pushes while strenghtening back their late game options; they are in a good spot right now if they end the game early(and they have the tools to do so) but 53% of people on TL believing they are "too strong" is pure mass hysteria. | ||
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Akio
Finland1838 Posts
Also besides 13/12 game, Dark really smashed Hurricane. Maybe first zerg Code S champ since 2015? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). Honestly, don"t waste your time on him. It's pointless. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
So we loaded the vod for semis and it is less than two hours. Considering the classic GSL downtime it looked like a quick 4-0. So first game, dark wins, great. Second game, what the fuck? Turns out PvZ is not a very drawn-out matchup these days Now I really hope for Dark to win to maintain the continuous fallacy of "protoss can't be OP, look they haven't won a GSL in ages". | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
 On June 15 2019 14:35 BerserkSword wrote: i want to see a Pro tournament replay where protoss can use a ground army to beat a lurker death ball immortals dont handle a composition with a critical mass of lurkers just like how at high enough numbers siege tanks can fight immortals. immortals are slower and more expensive than lurkers. lurkers range of 10 shreds anything protoss can throw at it Disruptors? It's the classic response right? Pheonix can also work with Immortals/storm if there isn't a lot of hydras (lift a bunch of lurkers, storm the hydra, rush in with immortals) | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 15 2019 19:10 opisska wrote: Wow, 6 pages for a GSL semis, this is truly the darkest timeline. So we loaded the vod for semis and it is less than two hours. Considering the classic GSL downtime it looked like a quick 4-0. So first game, dark wins, great. Second game, what the fuck? Turns out PvZ is not a very drawn-out matchup these days Now I really hope for Dark to win to maintain the continuous fallacy of "protoss can't be OP, look they haven't won a GSL in ages". Has anyone ever said that? Classic just won Super Tournament, and the last non Terran winning a Code S was Stats(more than two years ago). | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:59 Akio wrote: Why does Tasteless keep saying sunken cost fallacy instead of sunk? Also besides 13/12 game, Dark really smashed Hurricane. Maybe first zerg Code S champ since 2015? It's actually the spine cost fallacy now, and it has been since WoL. I think Dark knew how to put on pressure and that Hurricane wouldn't be able to take it. Some stuff had me really grieving, like the zealot mismicro in that wall, but a lot of it felt like Dark was able to keep Hurricane contained, get up a base, and be ahead all game in army, tech, workers, map control, and upgrades. While I enjoy the PvP games, it'll be fun to see a PvZ final! | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). Proportion arguments are problematic when Terran are underrepresented in the highest levels of the Circuit and Zerg are underrepresented in the highest levels of Korea and have been for years and are unrelated to the state of balance. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24279 Posts
On June 15 2019 18:12 fastr wrote: There are 3 mirrors and 3 non mirrors matchups in sc2, so 6 in total. 1/6=0.166. Assuming perfect balance, that's a 17% chance at best to see a PvP final. So something that has a 17% chance of happening hasn't happened yet this year and it's proof for you that balance is fine? That's a very weak argument. Let's take a slightly more relevant sample size. There has been 8 premier tournaments in sc2 in 2019. Let's talk ro8 because that's where the cash prize really starts to matter for the players. We could look at ro16 or ro32 and find similar results but I don't have time for it now. So if we look at the top 8 of those 8 premier tournaments, we're looking at 64 players. Assuming perfect balance, we should have about 21 players of each race. Now let's count the protoss. There are 31. That's right, protoss should account for 33% of the top 8, yet they account for 48%, almost half. Does that sound like "very high global win ratio" to you? At what point the protoss apologists admit that there's something wrong with the current state of the game? 50%? 60%? 100%? On a side note, similar trends have appeared on ladder for the last few months, where protoss regularly makes 40% of the population in GM on the 3 major servers I have no resentment towards protoss players, I do have it for those refusing to look at the data (your kind) and those who have the ability to fix it yet are nowhere to be found (the balance team). You have to fix a lot though and they’ve been reticent to do this. I’d be happy with something more radical, people just want to neuter Protoss because they are annoyed by the race. They’re easier to play to a certain level, there is less mileage you can get out of them at the very highest level, mechanically anyway. The rotating book of Protoss bullshit is basically necessary for Protoss to be relevant at the highest level. Which annoys me as a viewer, but also as a Protoss player because stylistically relying on all-ins and weird mindgames isn’t really how I like to play. Your data is correct but it’s only a part of the picture IMO, it assumes equivalent skill across the player base of each race. I’d be interested to see how matchups went vs Aligulac ratings for example, if matchups are generally going with the Aligulac prediction, or Aligulac is frequently getting it wrong, and what matchups that occurs in. Of course Aligulac isn’t perfect but it’s the closest rating tool we have than going off intuition. Ladder I think is always going to skew Protoss by design because it’s ladder and you play a lot of different opponents in Bo1s irregularly. You can have a few all-ins for each matchup and just execute them, whereas a ladder Zerg has to learn how to recognise and respond to a whole multitude of them. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24279 Posts
On June 15 2019 19:37 Blazinghand wrote: It's actually the spine cost fallacy now, and it has been since WoL. I think Dark knew how to put on pressure and that Hurricane wouldn't be able to take it. Some stuff had me really grieving, like the zealot mismicro in that wall, but a lot of it felt like Dark was able to keep Hurricane contained, get up a base, and be ahead all game in army, tech, workers, map control, and upgrades. While I enjoy the PvP games, it'll be fun to see a PvZ final! I need to see more Dark games in this matchup for sure. With herO I felt herO made some really stupid mistakes, Hurricane made some too, but this series it definitely felt Dark was forcing errors rather than relying on his opponent doing something wrong. I’m trying to figure out if Dark is figuring out how to interrupt the Protoss flow and delay those sharp timings enough that Protoss players have to transition away from their original gameplans, then Dark powers hardcore and if this is a reliable way to play the matchup from the Zerg side. Hoping both Trap and Dark bring their A game for the finals for sure. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
In regard to the daily balance discussion: I have to say I dread the day an absolute mechanical beast gets his hands on protoss, I think the sky is the limit when someone manages to control those disruptors and stalkers masterfully. So much potential to dictate the pace of the game. Until thats the case I don´t really think big changes are needed, its just that with the nature of the races it always looks silliest when protoss is on top of the pyramid. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 15 2019 15:46 ZigguratOfUr wrote: I could find other games but there's no real point since you'd quibble about it not being perfect immortal vs lurker monobattles. Doesn't make your statements any less false. nice job taking that one post out of context it has nothing to do with lurker vs immortal monobattles lol? obviously 14 immortals + 46 supply of support is going to beat 12 lurkers + 20 supply of support. show me something where a lurker deathball like darks loses to a protoss ground army just accept the fact that my statement is correct, you and couldnt find any game to prove otherwise. there's nothing wrong with that On June 15 2019 19:12 Nakajin wrote: Booh, Dark killed the fun Disruptors? It's the classic response right? Pheonix can also work with Immortals/storm if there isn't a lot of hydras (lift a bunch of lurkers, storm the hydra, rush in with immortals) disruptors are actually bad vs Lurkers phoenix immortal storm isnt a thing. it's too gas expensive to be able to beat lurker hydra ling | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 16 2019 00:41 BerserkSword wrote: nice job taking that one post out of context it has nothing to do with lurker vs immortal monobattles lol? obviously 14 immortals + 46 supply of support is going to beat 12 lurkers + 20 supply of support. show me something where a lurker deathball like darks loses to a protoss ground army just accept the fact that my statement is correct, you and couldnt find any game to prove otherwise. there's nothing wrong with that disruptors are actually bad vs Lurkers phoenix immortal storm isnt a thing. it's too gas expensive to be able to beat lurker hydra ling Sure dude. Check out Game 4. I wonder what technicality you'll use to claim it wasn't a lurker deathball. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 16 2019 01:41 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Sure dude. Check out Game 4. https://youtu.be/tQCwwFtCCTo?t=1674 I wonder what technicality you'll use to claim it wasn't a lurker deathball. Game 4 just proves my point. First engagement with high lurker count - rogue lets zest kill all his non lurker units for free (at least 10 hydras and a good amount of lings) and rogue's 15 or so lurkers (some of which are weakened by storms) still destroy 8 immortals, 2 archons, and a couple of zealots. so equal supply of lurkers alone kills equal supply of their supposed hard counters the final engagement was 12 lurkers vs 8 immortals and 6 archons. obviously if you bum rush 36 supply of lurkers with 32 supply of immortals, 24 supply of archons, and with chargelots pouring in after, the lurkers will lose replace with a deathball of 19 lurkers and double digit hydras and see what happens to the protoss army | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 16 2019 00:28 kyllinghest wrote: No player looks better than Dark does when he is winning. Completely dominating opponents! I have an inkling the grand finals are gonna be awesome,and whoever wins will have played a fantastic season! In regard to the daily balance discussion: I have to say I dread the day an absolute mechanical beast gets his hands on protoss, I think the sky is the limit when someone manages to control those disruptors and stalkers masterfully. So much potential to dictate the pace of the game. Until thats the case I don´t really think big changes are needed, its just that with the nature of the races it always looks silliest when protoss is on top of the pyramid. Lol Typical disrespect towards the Protoss greats Acting like mechanical beasts have never touched the race | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On June 16 2019 03:25 BerserkSword wrote: Lol Typical disrespect towards the Protoss greats Acting like mechanical beasts have never touched the race This was not at all meant as a disrespect towards players of any race, it was my thoughts on the future of SC2. I really do think there will come faster and more precise players, giving us even greater games in the future. Its possible to say Nadal is the best on clay without that being disrespectful to Bjørn Borg. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24279 Posts
On June 16 2019 03:49 kyllinghest wrote: This was not at all meant as a disrespect towards players of any race, it was my thoughts on the future of SC2. I really do think there will come faster and more precise players, giving us even greater games in the future. Its possible to say Nadal is the best on clay without that being disrespectful to Bjørn Borg. I don’t think it’s possible without some pretty big changes It feels the current crop have pushed as far as they can, or at least close to it, at least mechanically. I think this is why you have a bunch of Protoss who are pretty similarly good mechanically, what differentiates them is more style and strategy. There’s a clear gap, purely mechanically between the very best Zergs and Terrans than the next tier of players, that just doesn’t really feel is there so much with Protoss. Stalkers have too low DPS and melt too quickly as engagements scale in size for us to really see anything more than we’ve seen in SC2 history. There’s not really anywhere to go with stuff like blink micro I can see Protoss potential in some areas, for example people turning off charge on autocast when they’re doing worker harass, as it drags them away from worker lines Aside from that I could see some growth in terms of compositions that are fragile but really powerful and require incredible control, but could be potent if mastered. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On June 16 2019 04:07 Wombat_NI wrote: It feels the current crop have pushed as far as they can, or at least close to it, at least mechanically. I think this is why you have a bunch of Protoss who are pretty similarly good mechanically, what differentiates them is more style and strategy. There’s a clear gap, purely mechanically between the very best Zergs and Terrans than the next tier of players, that just doesn’t really feel is there so much with Protoss. Stalkers have too low DPS and melt too quickly as engagements scale in size for us to really see anything more than we’ve seen in SC2 history. There’s not really anywhere to go with stuff like blink micro I can see Protoss potential in some areas, for example people turning off charge on autocast when they’re doing worker harass, as it drags them away from worker lines Aside from that I could see some growth in terms of compositions that are fragile but really powerful and require incredible control, but could be potent if mastered. My thoughts on the stalkers are mostly about the ability to control the early game and therefore dictate the pace of the game. I believe there are loads of stuff that can be done marginally better here, like targetfire with a group within the group etc, and together it will snowball. Would take an absolute sick player though, but new talent will emerge. The thing I think will make protoss strong in the future is what you write about in your last sentence. Especially the disruptor has nearly endless potential, in my opinion. I guess only time will tell. For now I think we´re in for one heck of a final! | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 16 2019 02:38 BerserkSword wrote: Game 4 just proves my point. First engagement with high lurker count - rogue lets zest kill all his non lurker units for free (at least 10 hydras and a good amount of lings) and rogue's 15 or so lurkers (some of which are weakened by storms) still destroy 8 immortals, 2 archons, and a couple of zealots. so equal supply of lurkers alone kills equal supply of their supposed hard counters the final engagement was 12 lurkers vs 8 immortals and 6 archons. obviously if you bum rush 36 supply of lurkers with 32 supply of immortals, 24 supply of archons, and with chargelots pouring in after, the lurkers will lose replace with a deathball of 19 lurkers and double digit hydras and see what happens to the protoss army Yeah this was a complete waste of time. I can give you a game where Protoss uses a ground army to beat a lurker deathball. But nothing's going to convince you if your "counter-argument" is: "What if zerg magically got an extra half-dozen lurkers and a dozen hydras?" | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 16 2019 04:38 kyllinghest wrote: My thoughts on the stalkers are mostly about the ability to control the early game and therefore dictate the pace of the game. I believe there are loads of stuff that can be done marginally better here, like targetfire with a group within the group etc, and together it will snowball. Would take an absolute sick player though, but new talent will emerge. The thing I think will make protoss strong in the future is what you write about in your last sentence. Especially the disruptor has nearly endless potential, in my opinion. I guess only time will tell. For now I think we´re in for one heck of a final! do not count out the adept.one unit could singlehandedly change how protoss should be played until uncle blizz messed with zealot and Colossus and thus, players are back to deathball style again but this really limits the micro potential of one player | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24279 Posts
On June 16 2019 04:38 kyllinghest wrote: My thoughts on the stalkers are mostly about the ability to control the early game and therefore dictate the pace of the game. I believe there are loads of stuff that can be done marginally better here, like targetfire with a group within the group etc, and together it will snowball. Would take an absolute sick player though, but new talent will emerge. The thing I think will make protoss strong in the future is what you write about in your last sentence. Especially the disruptor has nearly endless potential, in my opinion. I guess only time will tell. For now I think we´re in for one heck of a final! I don’t think it’s possible with Stalkers, I think we’ll maybe see marginal improvements They just don’t scale with how the game works. Early to midgame PvP you see pretty insane micro frequently, using all sorts of different units, top Protoss players are capable of it. Bigger engagements, especially against other races, stuff just melts way way too fast to do much but roughly position and blink As you say I think there’s room for some real high skill compositions, but I’m not sure if they’ll be explored anytime soon because they just might be too difficult to do reliably, or worth it to gain an edge. Disruptors especially feel they have such potential, if someone could continually cycle disruptor shots, never be on cooldown, and ferry them around in a prism to compensate for their weaknesses, while controlling other units. Which would be absolutely sick if someone could do it really well, but the potential for things to go wrong is really high too. | ||
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2019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S
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