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[GSL 2019] Super Tournament 1 - Championship Sunday - Page…

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Tyrhanius
Profile Joined April 2011
France947 Posts
April 21 2019 17:23 GMT
#421
On April 22 2019 01:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 01:23 Tyrhanius wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ?

It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard.

Is that even the trend really?

Maru’s vZ is obviously great, better than his vP? I can’t reallt comment haven’t seen enough recently, I’ve heard others say Gumigod’s best matchup is vT

Or just watch games rather than judge things purely on results? Gumiho is top 5 in my favourite SC2 players ever, love the guy, he absolutely should not have beaten Dark in that series, Dark absolutely choked/threw games in that series.

And one of the games he did take was actually one that went to real lategame and he played it out really really well

Open aligulac, Maru is 2840 vs P, 2931 vs T, and 3126 vs Z...
Gumiho 2834 vs Z and 2751 vs T.
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
April 21 2019 17:33 GMT
#422
On April 22 2019 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 01:40 Wombat_NI wrote:
On April 22 2019 01:23 Tyrhanius wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ?

It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard.

Is that even the trend really?

Maru’s vZ is obviously great, better than his vP? I can’t reallt comment haven’t seen enough recently, I’ve heard others say Gumigod’s best matchup is vT

Or just watch games rather than judge things purely on results? Gumiho is top 5 in my favourite SC2 players ever, love the guy, he absolutely should not have beaten Dark in that series, Dark absolutely choked/threw games in that series.

And one of the games he did take was actually one that went to real lategame and he played it out really really well

Open aligulac, Maru is 2840 vs P, 2931 vs T, and 3126 vs Z...
Gumiho 2834 vs Z and 2751 vs T.


Protoss opponent at the moment have relevantly lower mmr on average, so vT and vZ scores are expected to be
higher.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
April 21 2019 17:50 GMT
#423
I’m looking at Maru’s GSL runs again, he’s beating Zergs he’s clearly better than largely, but he’s sweeping or maybe dropping a map (or two) against the best Protoss pretty consistently

Generally speaking.

From what I can gather Aligulac does a great job in crunching data, but they don’t have enough data now so it’s wonky someone’s.

According to Aligulac Maru currently is better vZ right now by about 230 points than Innovation’s peakvZ. I mean there’s just no way that’s right

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
burnturn
Profile Joined December 2015
United States59 Posts
April 21 2019 18:03 GMT
#424
On April 21 2019 21:19 BerserkSword wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 21 2019 21:08 Elentos wrote:
Old man title defense
On April 21 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:54 Fango wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:52 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:48 Fango wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:47 Morbidius wrote:
Gumiho control didn't even look top 10 in this series. Its like Artosis said, you can give him a 10 for his strategies but his micro is like a 5.

Considering it took a colossal throw from Dark for Gumiho to make the ro8, making the finals was still pretty good for him.


i dont think dark was the favorite there. gumiho's TvZ is nuts

i had gumiho winning

Dark is the best ZvT in the world by far. He played well below his usual standards in the match and it still took a massive throw for him to lose.



based on what?

as far as i remember, in the past year the only elite terran he's faced is maru and lost every single time.

otherwise he's just had success against the bunny's and alive's

He regularly beats every Korean Terran except for Maru and ByuN. He's the #1 nemesis of GuMiho, TY and INnoVation.


I am talking about recent play

last year he's only faced Maru, bunny, and alive in premier tournaments

Show nested quote +
On April 21 2019 21:12 Charoisaur wrote:
On April 21 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:54 Fango wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:52 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:48 Fango wrote:
On April 21 2019 20:47 Morbidius wrote:
Gumiho control didn't even look top 10 in this series. Its like Artosis said, you can give him a 10 for his strategies but his micro is like a 5.

Considering it took a colossal throw from Dark for Gumiho to make the ro8, making the finals was still pretty good for him.


i dont think dark was the favorite there. gumiho's TvZ is nuts

i had gumiho winning

Dark is the best ZvT in the world by far. He played well below his usual standards in the match and it still took a massive throw for him to lose.



based on what?

as far as i remember, in the past year the only elite terran he's faced is maru and lost every single time.

otherwise he's just had success against the bunny's and alive's

Maru lost 1 TvZ series the entire year which was against Rogue whom he beat in both rematches.
Dark only barely lost to Maru at WESG and repeatedly beat Inno and TY


huh?

I dont recall Dark playing Maru at WESG. Dark got stomped by Maru at IEM though.

Dark hasnt played inno in a premier tournament in over a year iirc. Same with TY unless i missed a qualifiers or something


Maru vs. Dark was literally the finals, and some people thought it was one of the better finals of last year.
sOs is best
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
April 21 2019 18:10 GMT
#425
On April 22 2019 02:50 Wombat_NI wrote:
According to Aligulac Maru currently is better vZ right now by about 230 points than Innovation’s peakvZ. I mean there’s just no way that’s right


Keep in mind Maru recently went a full year without losing a TvZ series. From Katowice ro4 he lost 2-3 to Rogue to the next Katowice he lost 1-2 to Leenock.

I do think INno at his peak was nuts vs Z. But it's party because Maru plays so rarely, only the big events. His rating has slowly climbed and never dropped.

Also he lost over 100 points because of the 0-2 to Meomaika and 2-3 to Scarlett which is hilarious. Even though he 2-0'd Dark, 2-0'd Lambo, 4-1'd Impact, and 3-0'd Elazer during the same period.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55551 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-21 18:49:05
April 21 2019 18:44 GMT
#426
I've gone back and checked every Super Tournament and Code S in LotV. Here's what I found:

- 60 Ro16+ appearances by Zerg since 2016
- Zergs have been eliminated 59 times from Code S/Super Tournament in the Ro16 or onward
- Rogue is the sole gold medalist
- 12 eliminations have been in the ZvZ mirror
- ZvT has been the cause of elimination in 19 instances
- Protoss players have buried the hopes and dreams of Zergs 28 times
- 8 PvT finals, 3 PvZ, 1 TvT, 1 TvZ, 1 PvP

Maybe Terran isn't the sole main reason Zerg struggles in GSL-affiliated tournaments after all.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Topin
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Peru10081 Posts
April 21 2019 19:41 GMT
#427
gratz Classic! but i cant stop thinking Gumi should have won G_G
i would define my style between a mix of ByuN, Maru and MKP
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
April 21 2019 22:34 GMT
#428
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo


must be because of terran players are just way too good.ive noticed that each time terran players showed thier faces at the final they most likely won the tournament regardless of the balance
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
April 21 2019 22:42 GMT
#429
On April 22 2019 01:23 Tyrhanius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ?

It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard.

every top protosse cant beat terran also tho
early terran could be extremely bullshit for zerg in smalls map but super large maps also almost always guarantee zerg a hive
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
April 21 2019 23:05 GMT
#430
On April 22 2019 03:44 Elentos wrote:
I've gone back and checked every Super Tournament and Code S in LotV. Here's what I found:

- 60 Ro16+ appearances by Zerg since 2016
- Zergs have been eliminated 59 times from Code S/Super Tournament in the Ro16 or onward
- Rogue is the sole gold medalist
- 12 eliminations have been in the ZvZ mirror
- ZvT has been the cause of elimination in 19 instances
- Protoss players have buried the hopes and dreams of Zergs 28 times
- 8 PvT finals, 3 PvZ, 1 TvT, 1 TvZ, 1 PvP

Maybe Terran isn't the sole main reason Zerg struggles in GSL-affiliated tournaments after all.

It’s probably a bunch of factors that at least vaguely come into play.

Protoss have a bunch of really good players anyway. Also a bunch of players who all play rather differently, across the cheese to reactive macro gamut. Quite a hard gauntlet to run.

Zerg can obviously prepare too, but they’re generally trying to play reactively. Which is harder to do vs super optimised builds, sometimes tailored to specific maps and prepared and grinded out in advance for a single series. Conversely, while they do exist Zerg have fewer really technical all-ins that are easy to disguise in their repertoire. They can’t proxy buildings, and their aggression tends to be harder to transition out of if it fails.

Thin margins these days at the highest level, perhaps enough though to make that slight difference.

Conversely Zergs aren’t doing too badly in weekenders, where their opponents can’t prepare to the same degree.

'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-21 23:06:40
April 21 2019 23:05 GMT
#431
On April 22 2019 07:34 seemsgood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo


must be because of terran players are just way too good.ive noticed that each time terran players showed thier faces at the final they most likely won the tournament regardless of the balance


Lol those Zerg and Protoss scrubs can't be on par with all the Terran demigods, born to rule the world of StarCraft.
seemsgood
Profile Joined January 2016
5527 Posts
April 21 2019 23:21 GMT
#432
On April 22 2019 08:05 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 07:34 seemsgood wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo


must be because of terran players are just way too good.ive noticed that each time terran players showed thier faces at the final they most likely won the tournament regardless of the balance


Lol those Zerg and Protoss scrubs can't be on par with all the Terran demigods, born to rule the world of StarCraft.

well you can thank mary for dat
ayyyyyyy
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
April 21 2019 23:22 GMT
#433
On April 22 2019 08:21 seemsgood wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 08:05 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 07:34 seemsgood wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo


must be because of terran players are just way too good.ive noticed that each time terran players showed thier faces at the final they most likely won the tournament regardless of the balance


Lol those Zerg and Protoss scrubs can't be on par with all the Terran demigods, born to rule the world of StarCraft.

well you can thank mary for dat
ayyyyyyy


Holy Mary, the savior of Terran...
Jenia6109
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Russian Federation1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2019-04-22 11:47:29
April 22 2019 11:47 GMT
#434
(T)Maru > (P)Classic > (T)GuMiho > (P)Stats > (T)Maru
INnoVation TY Maru | Classic Stats Dear sOs Zest herO | Rogue Dark soO
BerserkSword
Profile Joined December 2018
United States2123 Posts
April 22 2019 17:07 GMT
#435
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players

the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill?

How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random?
TL+ Member
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
April 22 2019 18:33 GMT
#436
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players

the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill?

How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random?


It's not like Zerg players never advance over Terran after the groupstage and when finals are lost by a single map it seems hard to think there's a scheme behind(I guess Serral is allowed to lose a final after all); as for korean Zerg, Rogue is very clutch but he just mostly never gets to the final stage while Dark and soO are notorious kongs.
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
April 22 2019 20:58 GMT
#437
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players

the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill?

How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random?

You can't just go with who wins the tournaments, FFS at this tournament you can see a Terran in the finals, everything right, isn't it? At the same time we had 2 Terrans in RO16 one of whom was an invite... You simply can't look at wins, at least look at who's in the finals and if you want to go super cereal, then take away statistic anomalies(which basically means remove Maru and Serral out of the equation ATM). Which shifts the balance in a way you won't like.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
April 22 2019 21:47 GMT
#438
On April 23 2019 05:58 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players

the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill?

How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random?

You can't just go with who wins the tournaments, FFS at this tournament you can see a Terran in the finals, everything right, isn't it? At the same time we had 2 Terrans in RO16 one of whom was an invite... You simply can't look at wins, at least look at who's in the finals and if you want to go super cereal, then take away statistic anomalies(which basically means remove Maru and Serral out of the equation ATM). Which shifts the balance in a way you won't like.

True, although the real top top player tier is so limited, there are so few premiere tournaments that basically removing anyone would shift things to an appreciable degree

I posted my personal theory as to Zergs in Code S already this page so no need to reiterate it. As a Protoss player historically, but largely more an observer, who’s always tried to be pretty neutral, I don’t really think there are particularly big issues racially at present at the very, very highest levels of play anyway.

If there are issues there’s nothing really glaring as a problem that’s fixable in any kind of simple sense in terms of actually watching games vs looking at results, such as when blink was silly in PvT or whatever other similar example I could use
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
DieuCure
Profile Joined January 2017
France3713 Posts
April 22 2019 22:45 GMT
#439
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote:
Are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill?


Are you talking about World Championships or Olympics ?
TL+ Member
Athenau
Profile Joined March 2015
569 Posts
April 23 2019 00:14 GMT
#440
On April 23 2019 06:47 Wombat_NI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2019 05:58 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote:
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:
when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo



There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided.

WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event.
Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event.
BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event.
Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event.
WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event.

To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios.

The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG).


I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players

the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill?

How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random?

You can't just go with who wins the tournaments, FFS at this tournament you can see a Terran in the finals, everything right, isn't it? At the same time we had 2 Terrans in RO16 one of whom was an invite... You simply can't look at wins, at least look at who's in the finals and if you want to go super cereal, then take away statistic anomalies(which basically means remove Maru and Serral out of the equation ATM). Which shifts the balance in a way you won't like.

True, although the real top top player tier is so limited, there are so few premiere tournaments that basically removing anyone would shift things to an appreciable degree

I posted my personal theory as to Zergs in Code S already this page so no need to reiterate it. As a Protoss player historically, but largely more an observer, who’s always tried to be pretty neutral, I don’t really think there are particularly big issues racially at present at the very, very highest levels of play anyway.

If there are issues there’s nothing really glaring as a problem that’s fixable in any kind of simple sense in terms of actually watching games vs looking at results, such as when blink was silly in PvT or whatever other similar example I could use

I think Zerg unit design is, at least in part, to blame as well.

The most efficient Zerg units (lings, banes, hydras) are almost devoid of micro potential. In big fights you might pre-split and flank, and that's about it. You can send lings on runbys, but there's no real point in continually microing them once they get in, since you don't care about getting them out again. The most effective strategy with banes is to just blow your bank on morphing a huge number and overwhelming with brute force since banes are so supply efficient, and at that point any sort of small-scale unit micro is pointless. Hydras are units with decent range and speed (especially on creep) but have such a terrible damage-point that Zerg pros often don't bother to do the most basic stutter-stepping, even on creep.

Roaches and ravagers are in theory more amenable to micro, but in practice are so much less efficient in the mid-long term that there's no real point in trying to maximize the value you get out of them.

Mutas are, of course, a poster child for high skill-cap units, but the meta doesn't favor them in PvZ, though Koreans still ike them in TvZ, though even there they tend to get phased out much faster than in previous expansions because the mid-game is much shorter.

Injects have a crazy high skill-cap in theory, but if you don't need to hit 100% efficiency to saturate your income then it doesn't matter in practice, and in fact that's what we see. Every mid-tier foreign Zerg pro can macro well and cover the map in creep if they don't fuck up their early game, to the point where it's hard to distinguish them from the best Zergs under "normal" circumstances.

Lategame army control with a lot of spellcasters is another avenue for better Zergs to stand out (*cough* Dark), but if you have to hit the lategame first, which means the actual impact of being really good at lategame on tournament success is diluted by the pre-requisite of not dying before getting there.

TL;DR version: Zerg has fewer ways to stand out mechanically, and the high skill-cap things they do have turn out to matter less than they should due to both race design and the current metagame.

Protoss, on the other hand, is more mechanically challenging in LotV than you give them credit for. Some of the prism juggling shenanigans that the best Protoss players can do produce miraculous outcomes--the ability for Protoss players to properly position and split their gateway armies, cast forcefields and storms, and pickup-micro their power units is absolutely key in top-level PvZ, for example, and Korean Protoss are clearly a cut above their foreign counterparts there.

Terran, well, not much to say. They're the ranged glass cannon race, so every improvement in micro, multitasking, and general tactical savvy produces a corresponding bump in efficacy. Top terran players look untouchable when they're firing on cylinders and pathetic when they're not. That level of play doesn't appear to be achievable on a consistent basis, which is, IMO, why Terran players still do well in the GSL and suck at weekenders (having a week to prepare for each series and play in comfortable, familiar surroundings as opposed to flying all over the world, dealing with jet-lag, foreign food, illness, while having to mass games against unknown opponents).
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