EPT[GSL 2019] Super Tournament 1 - Championship Sunday - Page…
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Argonauta
Spain4900 Posts
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On April 21 2019 22:04 BerserkSword wrote: and his 2019 record against top terrans in the world 1-0 vs special 1-0 vs gumiho 2-1 vs ty 1-0 vs innovation monster zvT considering how T favored the matchup has been recently There's only been 1 month this year where Terran had a winrate of 50% or better against Zerg. This isn't exactly Fruitdealer beating Terrans when TvZ is 70-30. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 22:22 Elentos wrote: There's only been 1 month this year where Terran had a winrate of 50% or better against Zerg. This isn't exactly Fruitdealer beating Terrans when TvZ is 70-30. win rate among what population? i dont consider the ladder win rates listed on aligulac to be that relevant in any case, it doesnt detract from solar's ZvT record | ||
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M2
Bulgaria4090 Posts
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On April 21 2019 22:30 BerserkSword wrote: win rate among what population? i dont consider the ladder win rates listed on aligulac to be that relevant in any case, it doesnt detract from solar's ZvT record Aligulac doesn't use ladder data, only tournaments. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:09 Elentos wrote: Aligulac doesn't use ladder data, only tournaments. Every kind of tournament from japanese weekly cups to Code S; the supposed TvZ imbalance manifests itself at the highest level, in the latest stages of the games. | ||
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:17 Xain0n wrote: Every kind of tournament from japanese weekly cups to Code S; the supposed TvZ imbalance manifests itself at the highest level, in the latest stages of the games. With a sample size of what, maybe 10 games if we're generous? That's some sort of eye test judgement and less objective than it would be if I looked at the results of IEM Katowice and decided Terran was too weak. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:22 Elentos wrote: With a sample size of what, maybe 10 games if we're generous? That's some sort of eye test judgement and less objective than it would be if I looked at the results of IEM Katowice and decided Terran was too weak. It's supposed in fact and stenghtened by Inno's and Maru's word at WESG; TvZ, to me, seems healthy and well balanced(except maybe in the ultra late game). | ||
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Ivan6
3 Posts
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:27 Xain0n wrote: It's supposed in fact and stenghtened by Inno's and Maru's word at WESG; TvZ, to me, seems healthy and well balanced(except maybe in the ultra late game). And coincidentally at WESG neither of them won in the ultra late game. And Maru against a supposedly significantly worse player (no offense to Scarlett but I think calling her that is fair). Not to mention 98% of games end well before that point any way for either side. I think ZvT balance depends much more heavily on the map pools than PvT. There's map sizes and layouts that just favor one race over the other and Zerg is generally more prone to having their weaknesses exploited. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:35 Elentos wrote: And coincidentally at WESG neither of them won in the ultra late game. And Maru against a supposedly significantly worse player (no offense to Scarlett but I think calling her that is fair). I think ZvT balance depends much more heavily on the map pools than PvT. There's map sizes and layouts that just favor one race over the other and Zerg is generally more prone to having their weaknesses exploited. Well, the way Maru lost that game... It may very well be as you say, tho. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:09 Elentos wrote: Aligulac doesn't use ladder data, only tournaments. yea but which tournaments. sorry but online tournaments with masters level players are irrelevant. look at the statistics from GSL events (code S, super tournament), also the top levels of blizzcon, wesg, and iem | ||
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:55 BerserkSword wrote: yea but which tournaments. sorry but online tournaments with masters level players are irrelevant. look at the statistics from GSL events (code S, super tournament), also the top levels of blizzcon, wesg, and iem Well taking the offline qualifiers for Code S & Super Tournament into account as well I imagine outside of Code S and the WESG playoffs it's not too great for Terran. | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
2019 gsl code s 1 - TvZ is 51.6%, with terran winning whole thing 2018 super tournament 2 - TvZ 58.3% 2018 code s 3 - TvZ 50% with terran winning whole thing 2018 code s 2 - TvZ 59.6% with terran winning whole thing 2018 super tournament 1 - 2018 cose s 1 - TvZ 58.3% with terran winning the whole thing a zerg has not beaten a terran in the finals of a premier tournament since mid 2016. zerg has zero gsl code s championships in LotV even blizzcon serral, iem soo, and IEM scarlett, the three zergs to win caliber premier tournaments since 2018, did so without having to face a single elite terran en route to their championships. I'm not saying they wouldve lost to an elite terran but the fact of the matter is that when elite terrans are involved, zerg wins jack shit. when the best zerg players can steer clear of elite terrans they actually win | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22777 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:05 Elentos wrote: Well taking the offline qualifiers for Code S & Super Tournament into account as well I imagine outside of Code S and the WESG playoffs it's not too great for Terran. I think we need more data points. Maybe include something like Olimoleague, but remove players who haven’t qualified for a premier tournament for a year from the data? I think tournaments of the highest level are obviously important, there just aren’t really enough to judge balance alone. They also bring in other factors too, higher the stakes the more players choke, and a player throwing a game doesn’t necessarily mean the matchup is problematic. Ladder is too low-stakes, players experiment, hide their best builds, or do entertaining/troll builds for viewers. There are the relatively rare times when all you need to do is watch a few games and use your Starcraft brain to see something is absolutely broken, regardless of stats but that’s pretty rare | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote: when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided. WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event. Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event. BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event. Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event. WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event. To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios). The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG). | ||
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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote: There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided. WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event. Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event. BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event. Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event. WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event. To be honest, Code S is very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios. The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG). It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ? It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Korea as a whole is the most Terran stacked environment, too. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22777 Posts
On April 22 2019 01:23 Tyrhanius wrote: It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ? It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard. Is that even the trend really? Maru’s vZ is obviously great, better than his vP? I can’t reallt comment haven’t seen enough recently, I’ve heard others say Gumigod’s best matchup is vT Or just watch games rather than judge things purely on results? Gumiho is top 5 in my favourite SC2 players ever, love the guy, he absolutely should not have beaten Dark in that series, Dark absolutely choked/threw games in that series. And one of the games he did take was actually one that went to real lategame and he played it out really really well | ||
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