EPT
Super Tournament 1
Streams & Casters
Format
- Single-elimination bracket.
- Round of 16: Bo5.
- Quarterfinals: Bo5.
- Semifinals: Bo5.
- Finals: Bo7.
Map Pool
Championship Sunday
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2106.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2322.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1101.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/680.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/noimage.jpg)
Results
CSS: FO-nTTaX
Awesomeness: Panda
Banner: GSL
[GSL 2019] Super Tournament 1 - Championship Sunday
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Map Pool CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
|
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Poll: GSL Super Tournament Champion GuMiho (27) Classic (13) sOs (11) PartinG (3) 54 total votes Your vote: GSL Super Tournament Champion | ||
|
Alarak89
United States882 Posts
PvP between sOs and Classic should be the highest level Rakshir which make mirror matches less boring. | ||
|
LennX
4553 Posts
| ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
 GuMiho 3-1  PartinGsOs 1-3 ClassicGuMiho 4-1 ClassicI hope Gumi trolls and wrecks face with lots of mech after saying it should be used sparingly. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On April 21 2019 15:02 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: GuMiho 3-1 PartinGsOs 1-3 ClassicGuMiho 4-1 ClassicI hope Gumi trolls and wrecks face with lots of mech after saying it should be used sparingly. but if Gumiho wins then how do we complain about balance? | ||
|
Anlo
Sweden485 Posts
If it's a Gumiho - Classic finals I'll be happy whoever wins though. | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
| ||
|
JabuSeika
United States607 Posts
But Classic is pretty strong. | ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
| ||
|
t5Fab
183 Posts
GuMiho 3-2 PartinGClassic 3-2 sOsGuMiho 4-2 ClassicBut! If sos beats classic: sOs 4-2 GuMihosOs has great PvT If parting beats gumiho: PartinG 4-3 ClassicYou can't stop someone who plays protoss from his soul If the final is parting Vs sOs: sOs 4-3 PartinGClownFiesta final crowns the best cluster fucker You heard it here first | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
| ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
Fantasy, TY, Stats and soO have to be somewhere near the top right? Anyone else I'm missing? | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:08 pdd wrote: Random question, of the active SC2 players, who were the best in Brood War (in terms of achievements and records)? Fantasy, TY, Stats and soO have to be somewhere near the top right? Anyone else I'm missing? Maybe INnoVation? Though my BW knowledge is pretty lackluster. I think he was starting to be pretty good before the switch to SC2. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
 | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:13 Durnuu wrote: Maybe INnoVation? Though my BW knowledge is pretty lackluster. I think he was starting to be pretty good before the switch to SC2. what about Classic? herO? were they very good in BW? | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Crocolisk Dundee
870 Posts
| ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:08 pdd wrote: Random question, of the active SC2 players, who were the best in Brood War (in terms of achievements and records)? Fantasy, TY, Stats and soO have to be somewhere near the top right? Anyone else I'm missing? Fantasy, no contest. He was the best terran in the world in BW when he switched. | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:08 pdd wrote: Random question, of the active SC2 players, who were the best in Brood War (in terms of achievements and records)? Fantasy, TY, Stats and soO have to be somewhere near the top right? Anyone else I'm missing? Fantasy bar none. 3-0'd Flash just before coming over to sc2 as I recall | ||
|
Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:20 Morbidius wrote: Fantasy, no contest. He was the best terran in the world in BW when he switched. wonder did he regret that decision | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
He's said he prefers SC2 to BW despite how much better he was at the latter | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
Idk, he came back to SC2 instead of BW when he finished military, maybe he wants to accomplish something in SC2 and already feels he proved himself in BW. He would certainly get a lot more money if he just streamed BW. | ||
|
NExt
Australia1651 Posts
- Tasteless | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:30 seemsgood wrote: i don't think his blink opening even works if only used for defending Gumiho's builds are certainly a counter to them | ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
| ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
SHODAN
United Kingdom1119 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
Meeii
155 Posts
| ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:31 Fango wrote: Gumiho's builds are certainly a counter to them literrally 200IQ .NA players would call it maphacker | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
Waxangel
United States33416 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
| ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
But maybe not do a build that forces a micro battle with Parting. That's what he's best at. | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
| ||
|
AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:39 sneakyfox wrote: Don't you have to suicide a couple of cyclones to get the prism? if you do that then the stalkers and the immortal will just overpower the rest of the cyclones | ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:39 sneakyfox wrote: Don't you have to suicide a couple of cyclones to get the prism? yea, either go back or suicide, no other way about it | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:40 IshinShishi wrote: yea, either go back or suicide, no other way about it That wasn't really a "micro battle", the moment that prism came out you all should know that gumi had almost no chance vs any semi decent toss | ||
CynicalDeath
Italy3410 Posts
| ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I don't agree with Artosis at all. People have not caught up to prime PartinG in micro. Mfer was lethal with blink stalkers He was very good at knowing when to go in with what units. He had more confidence in stalkers than anyone else. But in terms of actual blink/prism micro? I dunno most top pros are pretty good at it now | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I don't agree with Artosis at all. People have not caught up to prime PartinG in micro. Mfer was lethal with blink stalkers Nah, ByuN is best micro player of all time. | ||
|
Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
| ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
| ||
|
TerranOwnsAll
359 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
Happy had the best mirco, but his macro was utter crap. | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:49 Elentos wrote: PartinG's builds are very poorly optimized. Agreed, and that 12 pylon 13 gate opening has to delay the cc to be worth it imo | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
Classic usually beats sOs though, so it's looking like the Terrans are taking it home after all. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:45 Die4Ever wrote: I just remembered that Gumiho was in the GSL ro16 group with TY, Rogue, and soO... harsh group winning this tournament would be a perfect excuse to bomb out.lets gooooooo gumigoat | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
True. BYUN is the Goat player in term of micro skill. No one can be compared. Reaper nerf is probably the action taken due to his micro accomplishment. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:49 pdd wrote: How does Gumiho keep finding this weird timing attacks that make his opponents look like amateurs? gumiho s timing attack is now on bar with forgg s timing attack in TvT | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:50 Noonius wrote: Happy had the best mirco, but his macro was utter crap. Dream was around his level too but I agree, Happy's micro was and is special, in war3, it's such a beauty. But yes, he is predictable and his game sense was not that great, on sc2, it's problematic. Edit : for zerg players tho, Life with zerglings was doing miracles but it's a bit different. | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:53 swarminfestor wrote: True. BYUN is the Goat player in term of micro skill. No one can be compared. Reaper nerf is probably the action taken due to his micro accomplishment. Byun himself said Maru had better micro, for me they are both on a level of their own | ||
|
blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
| ||
|
blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:55 stilt wrote: Dream was around his level too but I agree, Happy's micro was and is special, in war3, it's such a beauty. But yes, he is predictable and his game sense was not that great, on sc2, it's problematic. Happy just never built scvs so it didn't matter how well he micro'd, he was never as far ahead as he should've been. | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:56 blooblooblahblah wrote: Happy just never built scvs so it didn't matter how well he micro'd, he was never as far ahead as he should've been. Not insanely hard to have good micro if you don't do anything else... | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:55 blooblooblahblah wrote: Overall, Byun is probably the best but it still bugs me that he could never split marines ByuN was the best solely with reapers. The fact he struggled to control big armies even in his prime should take him straight out of the micro GOAT discussion imo. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
 | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:57 Ej_ wrote: Not insanely hard to have good micro if you don't do anything else... Yes sure, it's pretty easy to replicate his micro and wc3 is an easy game. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:02 stilt wrote: Yes sure, it's pretty easy to replicate his micro and wc3 is an easy game. No it isn’t though | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:02 stilt wrote: Yes sure, it's pretty easy to replicate his micro and wc3 is an easy game. What I'm saying is that you will obviously be better at 1 aspect of the game if you disregard others, which is especially evident in a game like Starcraft 2 where economy management is very important and plays a large role in winning the games. However, you can disregard that and give me another passive-aggressiave hyperbole that refers to Happy's skills in a completely different game, be my guest. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 17:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: I don't agree with Artosis at all. People have not caught up to prime PartinG in micro. Mfer was lethal with blink stalkers Personally I think herO at his peak had better micro than PartinG | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:05 Ej_ wrote: What I'm saying is that you will obviously be better at 1 aspect of the game if you disregard others, which is especially evident in a game like Starcraft 2 where economy management is very important and plays a large role in winning the games. However, you can disregard that and give me another passive-aggressiave hyperbole that refers to Happy's skills in a completely different game, be my guest. Don't really know how you can said he particulary disregarded the macro management aspect, proof for this would be hard to bring imo, especially when the few wc3 players who spoke about it all said they were progressing/focusing on macro. As for happy's macro management, he scew up some times by getting supply blocked but the "forgot to build vcs" is a ridiculous statement, actually I would say his macro was fine as a lot of protoss were QQing about his mass orbital style in late game. Anyway, you don't get top GM while forgetting such fundamental asects of the game. Happy was super predictable and was relying on his overall mechanics to win, this approach works better on wc3 than sc2 tho. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:11 Charoisaur wrote: Personally I think herO at his peak had better micro than PartinG Nah PartinG edges out herO I think. He was smarter in terms of how to use units optimally and knowing when to go in/out. | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:14 stilt wrote: Don't really know how you can said he particulary disregarded the macro management aspect, proof for this would be hard to bring imo, Watch any given Happy game in SC2 and look at the rate at which he produces workers. God awful compared to other Terrans with worse micro. This is not some myth. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
classicuu | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Kopernikus
Germany27 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
TerranOwnsAll
359 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:00 Durnuu wrote: Guys I was joking when I said ByuN had the best micro Tastosis meme not stronk enuff | ||
|
Alarak89
United States882 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:18 seemsgood wrote: not gonna lie very good PvP game This tournament they're pretty good on average. I don't think that's normal though, pretty sure they still are terrible usually. | ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:21 IshinShishi wrote: im kind of upsed that sOs just rolled over and died there at the end without doing anything, felt like I was watching a brain fart after such brilliance. yeah that wasn't very clutch | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:25 Ej_ wrote: Glad to see 2 gateway forge is yet to win a single broadcasted game. The new shitty ravager build | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:20 HolydaKing wrote: This tournament they're pretty good on average. I don't think that's normal though, pretty sure they still are terrible usually. ZvZ and PvP could be potentially better than TvT but sadly 99% players refuse to stop using the great book of bullshit for mirror match up | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
| ||
|
Uolokio
5 Posts
| ||
|
skdsk
138 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:33 Wombat_NI wrote: Also is sOs the most underrated SC2 player? If anything he's closer to the opposite. Hasn't won a tournament since 2015 but people look at him like he's still at the level he was then. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:35 Elentos wrote: If anything he's closer to the opposite. Hasn't won a tournament since 2015 but people look at him like he's still at the level he was then. also historically his current opponent is a much better example of an underrated player | ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:31 skdsk wrote: blizz needs to fix protoss these pvp games, shows everything whats wrong with them, every game is basically 1base allin.. I rarely see games of this mu but sOs is really special tho | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:37 Penev wrote: also historically his current opponent is a much better example of an underrated player Ah yes, the GSL, SSL, IEM and Super Tournament champion that will never ever come up in discussion for greatest Protoss players. | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:35 Elentos wrote: If anything he's closer to the opposite. Hasn't won a tournament since 2015 but people look at him like he's still at the level he was then. 2 Code S 2nd places 1 GSL ST 2nd place 1 IEM 2nd place It's not like he's been that bad from 2015 | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:35 Elentos wrote: If anything he's closer to the opposite. Hasn't won a tournament since 2015 but people look at him like he's still at the level he was then. Back then he was up and down as well and since 2015 he's made 2 GSL finals. Something he never accomplished even back in HotS. and he has won a tournament:  IEM Season X - Taipei | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:35 Elentos wrote: If anything he's closer to the opposite. Hasn't won a tournament since 2015 but people look at him like he's still at the level he was then. Have many people? But I meant more historically, I mean versus what he’s won he’s rarely mentioned, often people who’ve won less or less big than him are frequently put ahead of him in great lists and whatnot | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:39 Wombat_NI wrote: Have many people? But I meant more historically, I mean versus what he’s won he’s rarely mentioned, often people who’ve won less or less big than him are frequently put ahead of him in great lists and whatnot I think Artosis put it the best: Most people underestimate sOs and his fans overestimate him | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:38 deacon.frost wrote: 2 Code S 2nd places 1 GSL ST 2nd place 1 IEM 2nd place It's not like he's been that bad from 2015 That IEM 2nd place isn't that impressive considering he was 50% of the Korean attendance (and let Scarlett win). The other results are good but except that the last Super Tournament he always looked pretty bad even when he made deep runs. In 2015 he actually looked brilliant. And that is beside the fact that for the first 1 1/2 years of LotV sOs did the same build every PvT and people still gave him credit for being the smartest player alive. | ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:39 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Back then he was up and down as well and since 2015 he's made 2 GSL finals. Something he never accomplished even back in HotS. and he has won a tournament: https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/IEM_Season_X_-_Taipei Every HSC is better than this so I disregard it. | ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
stilt
France2749 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:42 Elentos wrote: That IEM 2nd place isn't that impressive considering he was 50% of the Korean attendance (and let Scarlett win). The other results are good but except that the last Super Tournament he always looked pretty bad even when he made deep runs. In 2015 he actually looked brilliant. And that is beside the fact that for the first 1 1/2 years of LotV sOs did the same build every PvT and people still gave him credit for being the smartest player alive. He was so close of beating inno, leading the serie then losing it 3-4... He is not the super clueth player in weekender but still. | ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
e: holy shit that must be the most compressed Code S season ever | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:50 sneakyfox wrote: Wait the GSL groups are here?! e: whole shit that must be the most compressed Code S season ever Only the schedule I think. They need the final results of this tournament for seeding I believe. | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
last official match they played was in november last year (3-0 gumiho) | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:02 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Gumiho coming for his 2nd premiere I hope so. Wouldn't mind a Classic win though. | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
GSL S2: RENAISSANCE GSL S3: REEEEEEEEEEE | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:38 Elentos wrote: Ah yes, the GSL, SSL, IEM and Super Tournament champion that will never ever come up in discussion for greatest Protoss players. I've said this before but Classic is easily the best all-round protoss. He just isn't the absolute best at anything which is why people forget about him. He has superb micro, but herO and PartinG are more famous for it. He has seriously smart and creative builds, but sOs and Has exist. He's really consistant in tournaments, but Stats is more consistant. He's been pretty dominant at times when he's won, but not Zest or Dear level where they looked like the best in the world. He's won big tournaments but not as many as sOs or Zest Even when he broke out in 2014/2015, he was so underrated but overshadowed by guys like Zest, Dear, and Rain. | ||
|
Waxangel
United States33416 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:04 Fango wrote: I've said this before but Classic is easily the best all-round protoss. He just isn't the absolute best at anything which is why people forget about him. He has superb micro, but herO and PartinG are more famous for it. He has seriously smart and creative builds, but sOs and Has exist. He's really consistant in tournaments, but Stats is more consistant. He's been pretty dominant at times when he's won, but not Zest or Dear level where they looked like the best in the world. Even when he broke out in 2014/2015, he was so underrated but overshadowed by guys like Zest, Dear, and Rain. Stats is the best all around protoss  | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:03 Elentos wrote: GSL S3: REEEEEEEEEEE Well, if Serral wins GSL vs The World again, I wouldn't doubt that | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 18:42 Elentos wrote: That IEM 2nd place isn't that impressive considering he was 50% of the Korean attendance (and let Scarlett win). The other results are good but except that the last Super Tournament he always looked pretty bad even when he made deep runs. In 2015 he actually looked brilliant. And that is beside the fact that for the first 1 1/2 years of LotV sOs did the same build every PvT and people still gave him credit for being the smartest player alive. If everything falls into his plan it looks brilliant, otherwise it's looking stupid, that's how sOs work. (e.g. the blink DTs vs ByuN, if that fails he looks like an idiot) | ||
|
DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
| ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
He won the the last Super Tournament, got 2nd place in Code S and highly probable to win this tournament too. | ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
Absolutely. It's not even close. | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
That would be why he's the most consistent. But Classic has the highest range of all Protoss players I think. His cheese game goes off a deeper end than Stats'. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Best protoss =/= best all round protoss. Classic has much more variety in his play and is better at aggressive builds. | ||
|
DBooN
Germany2727 Posts
| ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:14 Durnuu wrote: What sets Classic apart from other protosses is obviously his chin stats used to have one too protoss alroundnessness is all in the chin | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:15 Morbidius wrote: Are Tastosis forbidden to mention SSL or OSL? Because they never talk about the titles the players won in these leagues. The entire community forgets about those leagues. | ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:13 Elentos wrote: That would be why he's the most consistent. But Classic has the highest range of all Protoss players I think. His cheese game goes off a deeper end than Stats'. Yea I agree, Classic excels at preparation and at a variety of strategies. But that's not all there is to starcraft. There's micro, macro, defense, multitasking etc etc. Factor all that in and Stats is number one. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:17 sneakyfox wrote: Yea I agree, Classic excels at preparation and at a variety of strategies. But that's not all there is to starcraft. There's micro, macro, defense, multitasking etc etc. Factor all that in and Stats is number one. Is Stats really the number one protoss at all of that? I wouldn't say so. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:20 Fango wrote: Is Stats really the number one protoss at all of that? I wouldn't say so. No for sure, not number one at each thing. But on average he's number one, hence best all-round protoss. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:26 sneakyfox wrote: Finally a colossus Calm down Artosis | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
atrox_
United Kingdom1710 Posts
| ||
|
skdsk
138 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
Kazi25
Philippines236 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
He was always right. Of course he should have added that you need to build them with +3 attack. That's how you win early game as toss | ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
That's 60 marines he didn't have. | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
| ||
|
Waxangel
United States33416 Posts
| ||
|
gophersnake
48 Posts
| ||
|
Uolokio
5 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:30 IshinShishi wrote: gumiho has foreign level bio control I mean No. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Cause I feel like it's been his "last shot" for about 6 months now | ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:30 ilikeredheads wrote: lol literally stormed to death No. His macro slipped. | ||
|
Agh
United States982 Posts
| ||
|
skdsk
138 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:30 IshinShishi wrote: gumiho has foreign level bio control and this is what happens when a foreign terran plays vs toss, they lose with up to 50 more army supply lol sure | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:29 IshinShishi wrote: Maru would never lose that game. Yeah Maru wouldn't have lost the engagements to storms, and even if he did would never float thousands of resources when not close to max. That was Gumi's game to lose but well done to Classic for playing almost flawlessly since he got behind | ||
|
youaremysin
119 Posts
Classic had a sloppy early mid but he played almost flawlessly after that | ||
|
InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:30 Waxangel wrote: who's GuMiho trying to impress by face-tanking all those storms I'd face tank storms too if my opponent was under 100 supply | ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:31 Agh wrote: wp by classic but 2k/1k from gumiho was a little unacceptable 3000+ | ||
|
Toua
Denmark318 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:31 Nakajin wrote: By the way, when does Classic actually goes to the army? Cause I feel like it's been his "last shot" for about 6 months now Pretty sure that it is after this year | ||
|
litLikeBic
Canada105 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:29 IshinShishi wrote: Maru would never lose that game. funny, maru lost to stats while gumi 3-0'd him and made stats look like a chump | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:32 Fango wrote: Yeah Maru wouldn't have lost the engagements to storms, and even if he did would never float thousands of resources when not close to max. That was Gumi's game to lose but well done to Classic for playing almost flawlessly since he got behind Most top Terrans wouldn't lose that game. They'd add a lot of liberators and Classic would be in a hopeless situation. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:30 IshinShishi wrote: gumiho has foreign level bio control and this is what happens when a foreign terran plays vs toss, they lose with up to 50 more army supply He doesn't have Maru level bio control. In fact he said himself he plays mech and uses creative builds specifically because his mechanics are behind other kr terrans. But he's still better than any foreigner. | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:33 litLikeBic wrote: funny, maru lost to stats while gumi 3-0'd him and made stats look like a chump To be fair Stats preapared really well vs Maru, but then he couldn't prepare vs Gumiho in a day. | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:35 Argonauta wrote: To be fair Stats preapared really well vs Maru, but then he couldn't prepare vs Gumiho in a day. Stats had to improvise most of the series against Maru because Maru suddenly played mech. But Stats also played pretty poorly against GuMiho by comparison. | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:33 litLikeBic wrote: funny, maru lost to stats while gumi 3-0'd him and made stats look like a chump Well Stats didn't play near as well vs Gumi as he did vs Maru. He looked lost and kept dying to armies he didn't see push out. I don't think Gumi is close to capable of winning that Port Alexander game that Maru won against Stats either. | ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
e: Guminot | ||
|
gophersnake
48 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
Die4Ever
United States17676 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
| ||
|
zestzorb
Thailand776 Posts
| ||
|
gophersnake
48 Posts
| ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:39 Fango wrote: Well Stats didn't play near as well vs Gumi as he did vs Maru. He looked lost and kept dying to armies he didn't see push out. I don't think Gumi is close to capable of winning that Port Alexander game that Maru won against Stats either. It's Port Aleksander, don't copy Afreeca's misspelling | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:43 gophersnake wrote: Someone tell this kid that tanks can move into siege mode Someone tell this kid dps is higher unseiged | ||
|
LennX
4553 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:36 Elentos wrote: Stats had to improvise most of the series against Maru because Maru suddenly played mech. But Stats also played pretty poorly against GuMiho by comparison. Stats prepared 2 good cheeses vs Maru in game 1 and 4 | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
| ||
|
Xitah
49 Posts
| ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
| ||
|
ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:43 gophersnake wrote: Someone tell this kid that tanks can move into siege mode To have everything in siege mode would have been worse with zealots and archons on top of him. | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
| ||
|
Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
Although I do feel that once the chargelots were gone at about 1/3 point of the engagement, Gumiho should have seiged up at least half the tanks... | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:44 pdd wrote: Why didn't Gumiho siege on the high ground? Then it wouldn§t be a throw. | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:44 Argonauta wrote: Stats prepared 2 good cheeses vs Maru in game 1 and 4 He didn't cheese in any of the first 4 games. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:43 IshinShishi wrote: its just sad that gumi outplays classic the entire game and just gets bopped every main engagement despite a considerable to huge lead, feels completely hopeless tbh That's what happens when you play terran | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:44 Penev wrote: alright gumi, now without the throw Looks like a BO loss now, well called. | ||
|
ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:43 IshinShishi wrote: its just sad that gumi outplays classic the entire game and just gets bopped every main engagement despite a considerable to huge lead, feels completely hopeless tbh tvp in a nutshell | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
If you play Terran better you don't get bopped in every fight. Standing in every psistorm in game 1 for maximum damage was a choice, not an obligation! | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:48 Elentos wrote: If you play Terran better you don't get bopped in every fight. Standing in every psistorm in game 1 for maximum damage was a choice, not an obligation! I meant the outplaying the opponent for the whole game only to mess the fight and lose. Much easier to do with T and P or Z Edit: watching foreign TvP and TvZ it feels like almost every game. | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:50 deacon.frost wrote: Lol, now it looks like a BO loss into BO loss of Classic, WTF? :D Nobody expects the 1 base all-in with stim | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:46 Elentos wrote: He didn't cheese in any of the first 4 games. My bad! he didnt cheesed first one, he defended Maru early pressure by prepping according what he saw vs Classic | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Ridicolous, this happens when your control during fights is awful. | ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:50 deacon.frost wrote: Lol, now it looks like a BO loss into BO loss of Classic, WTF? :D no Classic is too good | ||
|
ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
| ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
| ||
|
Doublemint
Austria8544 Posts
| ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
sigh | ||
|
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:53 Noonius wrote: I have never seen someone choke so perfectly Maybe focus on Classic's manly play in stead of gumi's mistakes? It's healthier for you, and more enjoyable for the forum. | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
| ||
|
IMPrime
United States715 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:51 Argonauta wrote: My bad! he didnt cheesed first one, he defended Maru early pressure by prepping according what he saw vs Classic He actually took huge damage from Maru's pressure and had to fight his way back into the game. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:43 IshinShishi wrote: its just sad that gumi outplays classic the entire game and just gets bopped every main engagement despite a considerable to huge lead, feels completely hopeless tbh i feel like the competitive level of this game is nowhere as good as the past years.only some individuals from terran and zerg and stats can deliver A game where they won't make any mistake and it s clean as fuck but stats is volatile tho | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:52 Xain0n wrote: Ridicolous, this happens when your control during fights is awful. And terran has a higher skill floor when it comes to big fights imo. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
| ||
|
Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
EDIT: Unlike the previous game where it was more of gumiho's fault. I dont think it was Gumiho throw in this game. | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:53 Elentos wrote: He actually took huge damage from Maru's pressure and had to fight his way back into the game. Not at all! He defended quite well lol | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:54 Estancia wrote: Unlike the previous game I think classic played really well here. If he did not send his stalkers around to snipe the tank this game would have went the completely other way. EDIT: Unlike the previous game where it was more of gumiho's fault. I dont think it was Gumiho throw in this game. yeah the stalker interception was brilliant | ||
|
youaremysin
119 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:56 youaremysin wrote: Classic is insane today He's been insane for ages and no one seems to notice | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
He lost 7 (?) probes and the reason he ended up winning the game could be chalked up to barely sniping the raven while doing the suicide stalker attack on the tank. | ||
|
Zygno
Austria276 Posts
| ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:56 Fango wrote: He's been insane for ages and no one seems to notice There§s a reason why some people call Classic the most underrated player  | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:53 Doublemint wrote: what a hold. happy easter sunday everyone! Thanks, I'm in the bus an hour early going to work cause they cut my regular bus going to work because of easter. At least it gave me an excuse to get up early enough to watch Classic-sOs. | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
Stim bio tank against non-blink stalkers though.. | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:56 Ej_ wrote: He lost 7 (?) probes and the reason he ended up winning the game could be chalked up to barely sniping the raven while doing the suicide stalker attack on the tank. He lost 7 probes, but much later than normally with that for 4 hellions and a reaper preassure of Maru, he delayed it by making the wall, plus Maru had to pull also 2 mines (brilliant move) which were also lost. So it was much later and more costly | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:54 Fango wrote: And terran has a higher skill floor when it comes to big fights imo. Even if we admit this is true(I'm not especially convinced), it was not Terran who lost the game, Gumiho's control and decisions did. Classic is playing good, not jawdropping, Starcraft: Gumiho donated games 1 and 2, Classic won game 3 by himself(it was nice). | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
Zygno
Austria276 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:58 blooblooblahblah wrote: I feel like Gumiho could've killed Classic if he went straight for the throat straight away. But tbf, oracles and shield batteries do wonders in small fights like this. Stim bio tank against non-blink stalkers though.. I agree, I think pulling his SCVs and going for it right away would've been the correct move, instead of slow/bunker pushing it. | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
come on now | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:01 Penev wrote: I see several non native speakers posting sentences with "playing good" come on now Deal with it. Playing good is a art Edit: I find it quite condescending to write this to NON native speaker while not writing WHY it is wrong or WHAT is the correct thing. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:00 Zygno wrote: I agree, I think pulling his SCVs and going for it right away would've been the correct move, instead of slow/bunker pushing it. hard call to make. I'm not sure it would've worked | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
*an  Edit: I find it quite condescending to write this to NON native speaker while not writing WHY it is wrong or WHAT is the correct thing. it's an in joke, deal with it | ||
|
Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:03 Charoisaur wrote: hard call to make. I'm not sure it would've worked I do believe that at that point Gumiho had no idea which upgrade Classic was researching. If it was charge instead of blink, pushing it with SCV all in may not be the correct option. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 19:59 Xain0n wrote: Even if we admit this is true(I'm not especially convinced), it was not Terran who lost the game, Gumiho's control and decisions did. Classic is playing good, not jawdropping, Starcraft: Gumiho donated games 1 and 2, Classic won game 3 by himself(it was nice). I never said terran lost the game. I even said a better terrran like Maru would have won easily. My point was it's easier to outplay your opponent and still lose as terrain than as P or Z. Foreign TvP/Z is a perfect example of this. And terran definitely as a higher skill floor when it comes to engagements. the lower the APM/control levek, the more toss favoured it becomes imo. Not to say protoss is easy, it's difficulties just lie elsewhere. | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:03 Penev wrote: *an it's an in joke, deal with it Imma dealing with it quite good, thanks  | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:08 sudete wrote: pretty much the perfect opening, surely gumi wins at least this one Hopefully he gets some on the board at least. | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:08 deacon.frost wrote: Imma dealing with it quite good, thanks you didn't get the joke did you? | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
How does it look to you? | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
I swear flavour text in my old SC1 had them warping stuff from Aiur, which fell rather a long time ago in lore | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:13 Fango wrote: Can terran actually lose TvP once they have enough BCs out? with gumi's control anything could happen | ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:13 Fango wrote: Can terran actually lose TvP once they have enough BCs out? Will Year Zero give us yet another GOTY candidate? | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:12 Wombat_NI wrote: Why are Protoss still warping stuff in anyway? I swear flavour text in my old SC1 had them warping stuff from Aiur, which fell rather a long time ago in lore Didn't they retake Aiur in the LotV campaign? | ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:12 Wombat_NI wrote: Why are Protoss still warping stuff in anyway? I swear flavour text in my old SC1 had them warping stuff from Aiur, which fell rather a long time ago in lore Also how does terran have so many maximum security convict, is the whole domimion just Chicago suburb? | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:15 sneakyfox wrote: Will Year Zero give us yet another GOTY candidate? I don't think anything could beat the Maru vs Stats game in terms of skill, or the Serral vs soO in terms of context. | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:17 Nakajin wrote: Also how does terran have so many maximum security convict, is the whole domimion just Chicago suburb? How do Terrans reproduce when their medics are no longer in there? With Ghosts? :-) So many questions xD | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:18 Fango wrote: I don't think anything could beat the Maru vs Stats game in terms of skill, or the Serral vs soO in terms of context. Yea, that's pretty much it On April 21 2019 20:19 Argonauta wrote: this map is giving us as many epic games as abyssal reef My thought exactly. Btw hasn't Abyssal had a long enough break by now? Should be time to bring it back. | ||
|
khanofmongols
542 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:21 sneakyfox wrote: Yea, that's pretty much it My thought exactly. Btw hasn't Abyssal had a long enough break by now? Should be time to bring it back. It is back, under a new name: King's Cove | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
but I want the weird physics too.. | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:23 Penev wrote: LLLWWWW It happened last time | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
just twice as big | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
And Abyssal Reef was already insane size-wise | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
Even more le epic 40min split map games TaCtIcAl BrAIn GaMePLay | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
| ||
|
youaremysin
119 Posts
| ||
|
Loccstana
United States833 Posts
| ||
|
royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
Not quite the same though? The third is different, and the paths on the middle of the map different too. TL;DR: Abyssal still GOAT map | ||
|
swarminfestor
Malaysia2449 Posts
| ||
|
royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:24 youaremysin wrote: Wouldn't immortals voidray tempest be better against mech ? Tempest poke while immo counter cyclones/thors, and voidrays prevent tactical jumps Voidrays suck | ||
|
Zygno
Austria276 Posts
| ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
| ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:26 royalroadweed wrote: Classic doesn't know how to play against bcs. Carriers are the worst choice. he knows, he was up 3-0 and it was fun | ||
|
FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
| ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
jjmmtt
Australia995 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:24 sudete wrote: If we saw this game without seeing maru vs stats it would be considerably more GOTY-ish Despite Maru vs Stats being better, TL writers are pretentious enough that Serral vs soO will still get GOTY | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
| ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
| ||
|
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:28 Fango wrote: Despite Maru vs Stats being better, TL writers are pretentious enough that Serral vs soO will still get GOTY So long as I live, this will not happen | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:28 Fango wrote: Despite Maru vs Stats being better, TL writers are pretentious enough that Serral vs soO will still get GOTY Ah, the very rare case of assuming some abstract moral high ground prior to any events that could warrant it. | ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
Of course it is. | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:33 Morbidius wrote: Bio isn't viable outside of cheeses and timings in TvP, Gumiho didn't get the memo. literally BW vibe | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:33 Morbidius wrote: Bio isn't viable outside of cheeses and timings in TvP, Gumiho didn't get the memo. pretty sure he's just going for a delayed timing nvm air upgrades started.. | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
| ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:36 Charoisaur wrote: pretty sure he's just going for a delayed timing BC late game timing | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:36 Penev wrote: dodge the storms this time pls gumi or just maek tanks or freedom circles | ||
|
Durnuu
13320 Posts
| ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
3/3 200/200 BCs timing. | ||
|
Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
| ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
| ||
|
ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:37 Durnuu wrote: Old man Chintoss! Enters your house through your chimney and bangs yo mom | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
| ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:38 Estancia wrote: As someone who only watched finals... How did so many protoss lose to Gumiho Gumi crushed people with (battle) mech style. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
couldn't ask moar | ||
|
IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
| ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
riotjune
United States3393 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
| ||
|
sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
| ||
|
-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
| ||
|
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
 | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:39 -NegativeZero- wrote: worth mentioning that gumiho stacked all of his liberators so they all immediately died to 2 storms Cherry on top, really. | ||
|
HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:39 -NegativeZero- wrote: worth mentioning that gumiho stacked all of his liberators so they all immediately died to 2 storms In game 2(?) he stacked like 8 banshees so all of them got hit by 1 archon in the big fight. He had that game easily but completely missmicroed. | ||
|
Penev
28481 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:38 HolydaKing wrote: Gumi crushed people with (battle) mech style. and didn't throw away advantages | ||
|
pdd
Australia9933 Posts
EDIT: That's Dr Chae to you | ||
|
Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:38 IshinShishi wrote: feels like gumi was better than classic in almost every way except the one that mattered: being good at controlling bio, the rest of the series was just a result of that and didnt really matter. he was also inferior in pressing the f-ing siege button in game 2 | ||
|
Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
| ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:47 Morbidius wrote: Gumiho control didn't even look top 10 in this series. Its like Artosis said, you can give him a 10 for his strategies but his micro is like a 5. Considering it took a colossal throw from Dark for Gumiho to make the ro8, making the finals was still pretty good for him. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:48 Fango wrote: Considering it took a colossal throw from Dark for Gumiho to make the ro8, making the finals was still pretty good for him. suck that dark didn't get his chance to revenge classic tho | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:48 Fango wrote: Considering it took a colossal throw from Dark for Gumiho to make the ro8, making the finals was still pretty good for him. i dont think dark was the favorite there. gumiho's TvZ is nuts i had gumiho winning | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:52 BerserkSword wrote: i dont think dark was the favorite there. gumiho's TvZ is nuts i had gumiho winning Dark is the best ZvT in the world by far. He played well below his usual standards in the match and it still took a massive throw for him to lose. | ||
|
Anc13nt
1557 Posts
| ||
|
Estancia
Korea (South)335 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:38 HolydaKing wrote: Gumi crushed people with (battle) mech style. If thats the case I guess Classic prepared against them by ending games quick. I wonder why Gumiho went bio in map 5 though, it seems like the protoss players have yet to figure out his mech build yet | ||
|
Akio
Finland1838 Posts
| ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 20:54 Fango wrote: Dark is the best ZvT in the world by far. He played well below his usual standards in the match and it still took a massive throw for him to lose. based on what? as far as i remember, in the past year the only elite terran he's faced is maru and lost every single time. otherwise he's just had success against the bunny's and alive's | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: based on what? as far as i remember, in the past year the only elite terran he's faced is maru and lost every single time. otherwise he's just had success against the bunny's and alive's He regularly beats every Korean Terran except for Maru and ByuN. He's the #1 nemesis of GuMiho, TY and INnoVation. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:01 BerserkSword wrote: based on what? as far as i remember, in the past year the only elite terran he's faced is maru and lost every single time. otherwise he's just had success against the bunny's and alive's Maru lost 1 TvZ series the entire year which was against Rogue whom he beat in both rematches. Dark only barely lost to Maru at WESG and repeatedly beat Inno and TY | ||
|
ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
| ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:08 Elentos wrote: Old man title defense He regularly beats every Korean Terran except for Maru and ByuN. He's the #1 nemesis of GuMiho, TY and INnoVation. I am talking about recent play last year he's only faced Maru, bunny, and alive in premier tournaments On April 21 2019 21:12 Charoisaur wrote: Maru lost 1 TvZ series the entire year which was against Rogue whom he beat in both rematches. Dark only barely lost to Maru at WESG and repeatedly beat Inno and TY huh? I dont recall Dark playing Maru at WESG. Dark got stomped by Maru at IEM though. Dark hasnt played inno in a premier tournament in over a year iirc. Same with TY unless i missed a qualifiers or something | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
Also Classic is the greatest teamless old man in all of esports. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:12 Charoisaur wrote: Maru lost 1 TvZ series the entire year which was against Rogue whom he beat in both rematches. Dark only barely lost to Maru at WESG and repeatedly beat Inno and TY You mean Maru lost only one offline TvZ series in non team based competitions. Look on Aligulac to know why Dark's ZvT is consistently the best. | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:19 BerserkSword wrote: I am talking about recent play last year he's only faced Maru, bunny, and alive in premier tournaments So which is it, recent or last year? If it's last year you're wrong about the people he's played, so I assume you mean this year. It's also weird to restrict to premier tournaments when Dark was playing best of 11 matches against Terrans in December/January. | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:21 Xain0n wrote: You mean Maru lost only one offline TvZ series in non team based competitions. Look on Aligulac to know why Dark's ZvT is consistently the best. You have to bring up Serral in every single conversation, don't you? I don't consider a bo1 a "series". | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:24 Charoisaur wrote: You have to bring up Serral in every single conversation, don't you? I don't consider a bo1 a "series". You are still missing something. It's just a partially incorrect statement, the one you made. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:22 Elentos wrote: So which is it, recent or last year? If it's last year you're wrong about the people he's played, so I assume you mean this year. It's also weird to restrict to premier tournaments when Dark was playing best of 11 matches against Terrans in December/January. It doesnt matter if it's recent or last year. Either way I don't see a case to be made about him being the best ZvT in the world Premier tournaments are the only thing that matter lol Anyway I did a filter on aligulac for all offline matches within the last year here's his record 1-1 vs cure 1-2 vs gumiho (in fact gumiho eliminated him from gsl code S season 3) 2-0 vs bunny 0-1 vs Maru 1-0 vs hhquanta 2-0 vs alive 1-0 vs innovation 1-0 vs keen 1-0 vs ryung where is the case for best ZvT? Gumiho was the favorite here, going by watching them play as well as recent history. gumiho's tvz has been off the chain | ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:32 BerserkSword wrote: It doesnt matter if it's recent or last year. Either way I don't see a case to be made about him being the best ZvT in the world Premier tournaments are the only thing that matter lol Anyway I did a filter on aligulac for all offline matches within the last year here's his record 1-1 vs cure 1-2 vs gumiho (in fact gumiho eliminated him from gsl code S season 3) 2-0 vs bunny 0-1 vs Maru 1-0 vs hhquanta 2-0 vs alive 1-0 vs innovation 1-0 vs keen 1-0 vs ryung where is the case for best ZvT? Gumiho was the favorite here, going by watching them play as well as recent history. gumiho's tvz has been off the chain which Zerg has a better claim? Rogue lost twice to Maru twice to Inno and to Gumiho in the same time span so he can't be it. Serral got 3-0ed by Maru, struggled vs TaeJa and lost twice vs Inno so he can't be it. soO? hahahah and why do you consider only offline? seems cherry-picked. I'm surprised there's even a discussion about Dark being the best ZvT player | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: which Zerg has a better claim? Rogue lost twice to Maru twice to Inno and to Gumiho in the same time span so he can't be it. Serral got 3-0ed by Maru, struggled vs TaeJa and lost twice vs Inno so he can't be it. soO? hahahah and why do you consider only offline? seems cherry-picked. I'm surprised there's even a discussion about Dark being the best ZvT player Well not that I disagree but I bet you if Dark had played two series vs Maru he would also lost them. Its not just about the record but who you face. And lets face it, in Korea Zerg is the weakest race. In 2018 they won nothing. This year soO got katowice and 2017 Rogue got Super-tournament, Katowice and Blizzcon. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: which Zerg has a better claim? Rogue lost twice to Maru twice to Inno and to Gumiho in the same time span so he can't be it. Serral got 3-0ed by Maru, struggled vs TaeJa and lost twice vs Inno so he can't be it. soO? hahahah and why do you consider only offline? seems cherry-picked. I'm surprised there's even a discussion about Dark being the best ZvT player How is "struggling" relevant if you win? TvZ seemed very T favored at HSC, if you consider online games Serral vs Maru is 3-3(2-1). I think Serral was better at least from GSL vs The World onwards in 2018 while Dark was better before and after, his loss to Gumiho(whose ZvT record didn't really seem dominating) was unexpected. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:45 Charoisaur wrote: which Zerg has a better claim? Rogue lost twice to Maru twice to Inno and to Gumiho in the same time span so he can't be it. Serral got 3-0ed by Maru, struggled vs TaeJa and lost twice vs Inno so he can't be it. soO? hahahah and why do you consider only offline? seems cherry-picked. I'm surprised there's even a discussion about Dark being the best ZvT player solar is the best ZvT in the world right now by far imo and honestly i think serral is better if you only go by watching the players play vs results, but since that is so arbitrary ill stick with solar | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
| ||
|
Charoisaur
Germany15967 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:54 Xain0n wrote: How is "struggling" relevant if you win? TvZ seemed very T favored at HSC, if you consider online games Serral vs Maru is 3-3(2-1). I think Serral was better at least from GSL vs The World onwards in 2018 while Dark was better before and after, his loss to Gumiho(whose ZvT record didn't really seem dominating) was unexpected. That's it, I won't respond to another comment from you. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
1-1 vs fantasy 1-0 vs special 2-2 vs TY 2-0 vs gumiho 2-1 vs bunny 2-2 vs inno 2-0 vs taeja 1-0 vs mma 1-2 vs cure 1-1 vs keen 0-1 vs maru only losing records vs maru and cure and his 2019 record against top terrans in the world 1-0 vs special 1-0 vs gumiho 2-1 vs ty 1-0 vs innovation monster zvT considering how T favored the matchup has been recently | ||
|
Ej_
47656 Posts
| ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 22:00 Charoisaur wrote: That's it, I won't respond to another comment from you. Then don't, if you want to bring numbers be sure to use the right ones; it's false to say that Maru did not lose one single TvZ series in 2018, he lost one single series in Premier, offline, non team based(he didn't lose to Serral only in bo1, in BJ Destruction he was defeated by soO) tournaments; these losses are pretty irrelevant, still they happened. Solar's ZvT record is pretty convincing, especially in 2019; it's maybe a bit lacking when it comes to the most prestigious stages(he went out of Code S because of ZvT). | ||
|
Argonauta
Spain4948 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 22:04 BerserkSword wrote: and his 2019 record against top terrans in the world 1-0 vs special 1-0 vs gumiho 2-1 vs ty 1-0 vs innovation monster zvT considering how T favored the matchup has been recently There's only been 1 month this year where Terran had a winrate of 50% or better against Zerg. This isn't exactly Fruitdealer beating Terrans when TvZ is 70-30. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 22:22 Elentos wrote: There's only been 1 month this year where Terran had a winrate of 50% or better against Zerg. This isn't exactly Fruitdealer beating Terrans when TvZ is 70-30. win rate among what population? i dont consider the ladder win rates listed on aligulac to be that relevant in any case, it doesnt detract from solar's ZvT record | ||
|
M2
Bulgaria4118 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 22:30 BerserkSword wrote: win rate among what population? i dont consider the ladder win rates listed on aligulac to be that relevant in any case, it doesnt detract from solar's ZvT record Aligulac doesn't use ladder data, only tournaments. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:09 Elentos wrote: Aligulac doesn't use ladder data, only tournaments. Every kind of tournament from japanese weekly cups to Code S; the supposed TvZ imbalance manifests itself at the highest level, in the latest stages of the games. | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:17 Xain0n wrote: Every kind of tournament from japanese weekly cups to Code S; the supposed TvZ imbalance manifests itself at the highest level, in the latest stages of the games. With a sample size of what, maybe 10 games if we're generous? That's some sort of eye test judgement and less objective than it would be if I looked at the results of IEM Katowice and decided Terran was too weak. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:22 Elentos wrote: With a sample size of what, maybe 10 games if we're generous? That's some sort of eye test judgement and less objective than it would be if I looked at the results of IEM Katowice and decided Terran was too weak. It's supposed in fact and stenghtened by Inno's and Maru's word at WESG; TvZ, to me, seems healthy and well balanced(except maybe in the ultra late game). | ||
|
Ivan6
3 Posts
| ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:27 Xain0n wrote: It's supposed in fact and stenghtened by Inno's and Maru's word at WESG; TvZ, to me, seems healthy and well balanced(except maybe in the ultra late game). And coincidentally at WESG neither of them won in the ultra late game. And Maru against a supposedly significantly worse player (no offense to Scarlett but I think calling her that is fair). Not to mention 98% of games end well before that point any way for either side. I think ZvT balance depends much more heavily on the map pools than PvT. There's map sizes and layouts that just favor one race over the other and Zerg is generally more prone to having their weaknesses exploited. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:35 Elentos wrote: And coincidentally at WESG neither of them won in the ultra late game. And Maru against a supposedly significantly worse player (no offense to Scarlett but I think calling her that is fair). I think ZvT balance depends much more heavily on the map pools than PvT. There's map sizes and layouts that just favor one race over the other and Zerg is generally more prone to having their weaknesses exploited. Well, the way Maru lost that game... It may very well be as you say, tho. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:09 Elentos wrote: Aligulac doesn't use ladder data, only tournaments. yea but which tournaments. sorry but online tournaments with masters level players are irrelevant. look at the statistics from GSL events (code S, super tournament), also the top levels of blizzcon, wesg, and iem | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
On April 21 2019 23:55 BerserkSword wrote: yea but which tournaments. sorry but online tournaments with masters level players are irrelevant. look at the statistics from GSL events (code S, super tournament), also the top levels of blizzcon, wesg, and iem Well taking the offline qualifiers for Code S & Super Tournament into account as well I imagine outside of Code S and the WESG playoffs it's not too great for Terran. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
2019 gsl code s 1 - TvZ is 51.6%, with terran winning whole thing 2018 super tournament 2 - TvZ 58.3% 2018 code s 3 - TvZ 50% with terran winning whole thing 2018 code s 2 - TvZ 59.6% with terran winning whole thing 2018 super tournament 1 - 2018 cose s 1 - TvZ 58.3% with terran winning the whole thing a zerg has not beaten a terran in the finals of a premier tournament since mid 2016. zerg has zero gsl code s championships in LotV even blizzcon serral, iem soo, and IEM scarlett, the three zergs to win caliber premier tournaments since 2018, did so without having to face a single elite terran en route to their championships. I'm not saying they wouldve lost to an elite terran but the fact of the matter is that when elite terrans are involved, zerg wins jack shit. when the best zerg players can steer clear of elite terrans they actually win | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:05 Elentos wrote: Well taking the offline qualifiers for Code S & Super Tournament into account as well I imagine outside of Code S and the WESG playoffs it's not too great for Terran. I think we need more data points. Maybe include something like Olimoleague, but remove players who haven’t qualified for a premier tournament for a year from the data? I think tournaments of the highest level are obviously important, there just aren’t really enough to judge balance alone. They also bring in other factors too, higher the stakes the more players choke, and a player throwing a game doesn’t necessarily mean the matchup is problematic. Ladder is too low-stakes, players experiment, hide their best builds, or do entertaining/troll builds for viewers. There are the relatively rare times when all you need to do is watch a few games and use your Starcraft brain to see something is absolutely broken, regardless of stats but that’s pretty rare | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
| ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote: when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided. WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event. Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event. BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event. Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event. WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event. To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios). The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG). | ||
|
Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote: There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided. WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event. Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event. BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event. Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event. WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event. To be honest, Code S is very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios. The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG). It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ? It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Korea as a whole is the most Terran stacked environment, too. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 22 2019 01:23 Tyrhanius wrote: It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ? It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard. Is that even the trend really? Maru’s vZ is obviously great, better than his vP? I can’t reallt comment haven’t seen enough recently, I’ve heard others say Gumigod’s best matchup is vT Or just watch games rather than judge things purely on results? Gumiho is top 5 in my favourite SC2 players ever, love the guy, he absolutely should not have beaten Dark in that series, Dark absolutely choked/threw games in that series. And one of the games he did take was actually one that went to real lategame and he played it out really really well | ||
|
Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On April 22 2019 01:40 Wombat_NI wrote: Is that even the trend really? Maru’s vZ is obviously great, better than his vP? I can’t reallt comment haven’t seen enough recently, I’ve heard others say Gumigod’s best matchup is vT Or just watch games rather than judge things purely on results? Gumiho is top 5 in my favourite SC2 players ever, love the guy, he absolutely should not have beaten Dark in that series, Dark absolutely choked/threw games in that series. And one of the games he did take was actually one that went to real lategame and he played it out really really well Open aligulac, Maru is 2840 vs P, 2931 vs T, and 3126 vs Z... Gumiho 2834 vs Z and 2751 vs T. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 22 2019 02:23 Tyrhanius wrote: Open aligulac, Maru is 2840 vs P, 2931 vs T, and 3126 vs Z... Gumiho 2834 vs Z and 2751 vs T. Protoss opponent at the moment have relevantly lower mmr on average, so vT and vZ scores are expected to be higher. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
Generally speaking. From what I can gather Aligulac does a great job in crunching data, but they don’t have enough data now so it’s wonky someone’s. According to Aligulac Maru currently is better vZ right now by about 230 points than Innovation’s peakvZ. I mean there’s just no way that’s right | ||
|
burnturn
United States59 Posts
On April 21 2019 21:19 BerserkSword wrote: I am talking about recent play last year he's only faced Maru, bunny, and alive in premier tournaments huh? I dont recall Dark playing Maru at WESG. Dark got stomped by Maru at IEM though. Dark hasnt played inno in a premier tournament in over a year iirc. Same with TY unless i missed a qualifiers or something Maru vs. Dark was literally the finals, and some people thought it was one of the better finals of last year. | ||
|
Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 22 2019 02:50 Wombat_NI wrote: According to Aligulac Maru currently is better vZ right now by about 230 points than Innovation’s peakvZ. I mean there’s just no way that’s right Keep in mind Maru recently went a full year without losing a TvZ series. From Katowice ro4 he lost 2-3 to Rogue to the next Katowice he lost 1-2 to Leenock. I do think INno at his peak was nuts vs Z. But it's party because Maru plays so rarely, only the big events. His rating has slowly climbed and never dropped. Also he lost over 100 points because of the 0-2 to Meomaika and 2-3 to Scarlett which is hilarious. Even though he 2-0'd Dark, 2-0'd Lambo, 4-1'd Impact, and 3-0'd Elazer during the same period. | ||
|
Elentos
55551 Posts
- 60 Ro16+ appearances by Zerg since 2016 - Zergs have been eliminated 59 times from Code S/Super Tournament in the Ro16 or onward - Rogue is the sole gold medalist - 12 eliminations have been in the ZvZ mirror - ZvT has been the cause of elimination in 19 instances - Protoss players have buried the hopes and dreams of Zergs 28 times - 8 PvT finals, 3 PvZ, 1 TvT, 1 TvZ, 1 PvP Maybe Terran isn't the sole main reason Zerg struggles in GSL-affiliated tournaments after all. | ||
|
Topin
Peru10081 Posts
| ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote: when a race cannot win a single championship at the the tournament involving the absolute highest level of play, and another race wins all but two of them, something is wrong imo must be because of terran players are just way too good.ive noticed that each time terran players showed thier faces at the final they most likely won the tournament regardless of the balance | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 22 2019 01:23 Tyrhanius wrote: It's easy to tell zerg KOR are not good, when it's not the case. SoO has beaten Stats, hero, Serral, Zest, but vs Terran, he lost both TY and Bunny and only beat uthermal. The result of the tournament is mostly due to the luck he has to dodge all ZvT... So he can beat Stats, the man who recently beat Maru, but can't beat any top terran ? It's a trend, every top Zerg can't beat Terran, and every terran has TvZ has his best MU. Not really surprising when now Terran has a better lategame than Zerg, and zerg early got nerfed hard. every top protosse cant beat terran also tho early terran could be extremely bullshit for zerg in smalls map but super large maps also almost always guarantee zerg a hive | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 22 2019 03:44 Elentos wrote: I've gone back and checked every Super Tournament and Code S in LotV. Here's what I found: - 60 Ro16+ appearances by Zerg since 2016 - Zergs have been eliminated 59 times from Code S/Super Tournament in the Ro16 or onward - Rogue is the sole gold medalist - 12 eliminations have been in the ZvZ mirror - ZvT has been the cause of elimination in 19 instances - Protoss players have buried the hopes and dreams of Zergs 28 times - 8 PvT finals, 3 PvZ, 1 TvT, 1 TvZ, 1 PvP Maybe Terran isn't the sole main reason Zerg struggles in GSL-affiliated tournaments after all. It’s probably a bunch of factors that at least vaguely come into play. Protoss have a bunch of really good players anyway. Also a bunch of players who all play rather differently, across the cheese to reactive macro gamut. Quite a hard gauntlet to run. Zerg can obviously prepare too, but they’re generally trying to play reactively. Which is harder to do vs super optimised builds, sometimes tailored to specific maps and prepared and grinded out in advance for a single series. Conversely, while they do exist Zerg have fewer really technical all-ins that are easy to disguise in their repertoire. They can’t proxy buildings, and their aggression tends to be harder to transition out of if it fails. Thin margins these days at the highest level, perhaps enough though to make that slight difference. Conversely Zergs aren’t doing too badly in weekenders, where their opponents can’t prepare to the same degree. | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 22 2019 07:34 seemsgood wrote: must be because of terran players are just way too good.ive noticed that each time terran players showed thier faces at the final they most likely won the tournament regardless of the balance Lol those Zerg and Protoss scrubs can't be on par with all the Terran demigods, born to rule the world of StarCraft. | ||
|
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On April 22 2019 08:05 Xain0n wrote: Lol those Zerg and Protoss scrubs can't be on par with all the Terran demigods, born to rule the world of StarCraft. well you can thank mary for dat ayyyyyyy | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Holy Mary, the savior of Terran... | ||
|
| ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 22 2019 00:52 Xain0n wrote: There are gaps to fill in the datas your provided. WESG 2018:TvZ 45.5%, Terran won the event. Katowice 2019:TvZ 48.9%, Zerg won the event. BlizzCon 2018:TvZ 60%(even if just 9-6 in maps, 3-2 in matches), Zerg won the event. Katowice 2018:TvZ 50%, Zerg won the event. WESG 2017:TvZ 52%, Terran won the event. To be honest, Code S is a very Terran friendly environment(and it hasn't been generous to Zerg in 2019 so I am not surprised to see these TvZ ratios. The trend in finals is interesting to say the least but Zerg not winning a single one is just random(HSC XVIII was technically a Major but could easily be Premier, Dark and Serral both lost 3-4 to Maru and Inno at WESG). I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill? How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random? | ||
|
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote: I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill? How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random? It's not like Zerg players never advance over Terran after the groupstage and when finals are lost by a single map it seems hard to think there's a scheme behind(I guess Serral is allowed to lose a final after all); as for korean Zerg, Rogue is very clutch but he just mostly never gets to the final stage while Dark and soO are notorious kongs. | ||
|
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote: I left those tournaments out for a reason. So that I wouldnt have to sift through all the statistics involving matches between lesser caliber players the results do show that code S is very "terran friendly" but is that acceptable? are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill? How long can these patterns go on until you would consider these results as a trend rather than random? You can't just go with who wins the tournaments, FFS at this tournament you can see a Terran in the finals, everything right, isn't it? At the same time we had 2 Terrans in RO16 one of whom was an invite... You simply can't look at wins, at least look at who's in the finals and if you want to go super cereal, then take away statistic anomalies(which basically means remove Maru and Serral out of the equation ATM). Which shifts the balance in a way you won't like. | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 23 2019 05:58 deacon.frost wrote: You can't just go with who wins the tournaments, FFS at this tournament you can see a Terran in the finals, everything right, isn't it? At the same time we had 2 Terrans in RO16 one of whom was an invite... You simply can't look at wins, at least look at who's in the finals and if you want to go super cereal, then take away statistic anomalies(which basically means remove Maru and Serral out of the equation ATM). Which shifts the balance in a way you won't like. True, although the real top top player tier is so limited, there are so few premiere tournaments that basically removing anyone would shift things to an appreciable degree I posted my personal theory as to Zergs in Code S already this page so no need to reiterate it. As a Protoss player historically, but largely more an observer, who’s always tried to be pretty neutral, I don’t really think there are particularly big issues racially at present at the very, very highest levels of play anyway. If there are issues there’s nothing really glaring as a problem that’s fixable in any kind of simple sense in terms of actually watching games vs looking at results, such as when blink was silly in PvT or whatever other similar example I could use | ||
|
DieuCure
France3713 Posts
On April 23 2019 02:07 BerserkSword wrote: Are we just going to accept that the game is balanced in such a way that zerg cannot win the pinnacle of tournaments in terms of skill? Are you talking about World Championships or Olympics ? | ||
|
Athenau
569 Posts
On April 23 2019 06:47 Wombat_NI wrote: True, although the real top top player tier is so limited, there are so few premiere tournaments that basically removing anyone would shift things to an appreciable degree I posted my personal theory as to Zergs in Code S already this page so no need to reiterate it. As a Protoss player historically, but largely more an observer, who’s always tried to be pretty neutral, I don’t really think there are particularly big issues racially at present at the very, very highest levels of play anyway. If there are issues there’s nothing really glaring as a problem that’s fixable in any kind of simple sense in terms of actually watching games vs looking at results, such as when blink was silly in PvT or whatever other similar example I could use I think Zerg unit design is, at least in part, to blame as well. The most efficient Zerg units (lings, banes, hydras) are almost devoid of micro potential. In big fights you might pre-split and flank, and that's about it. You can send lings on runbys, but there's no real point in continually microing them once they get in, since you don't care about getting them out again. The most effective strategy with banes is to just blow your bank on morphing a huge number and overwhelming with brute force since banes are so supply efficient, and at that point any sort of small-scale unit micro is pointless. Hydras are units with decent range and speed (especially on creep) but have such a terrible damage-point that Zerg pros often don't bother to do the most basic stutter-stepping, even on creep. Roaches and ravagers are in theory more amenable to micro, but in practice are so much less efficient in the mid-long term that there's no real point in trying to maximize the value you get out of them. Mutas are, of course, a poster child for high skill-cap units, but the meta doesn't favor them in PvZ, though Koreans still ike them in TvZ, though even there they tend to get phased out much faster than in previous expansions because the mid-game is much shorter. Injects have a crazy high skill-cap in theory, but if you don't need to hit 100% efficiency to saturate your income then it doesn't matter in practice, and in fact that's what we see. Every mid-tier foreign Zerg pro can macro well and cover the map in creep if they don't fuck up their early game, to the point where it's hard to distinguish them from the best Zergs under "normal" circumstances. Lategame army control with a lot of spellcasters is another avenue for better Zergs to stand out (*cough* Dark), but if you have to hit the lategame first, which means the actual impact of being really good at lategame on tournament success is diluted by the pre-requisite of not dying before getting there. TL;DR version: Zerg has fewer ways to stand out mechanically, and the high skill-cap things they do have turn out to matter less than they should due to both race design and the current metagame. Protoss, on the other hand, is more mechanically challenging in LotV than you give them credit for. Some of the prism juggling shenanigans that the best Protoss players can do produce miraculous outcomes--the ability for Protoss players to properly position and split their gateway armies, cast forcefields and storms, and pickup-micro their power units is absolutely key in top-level PvZ, for example, and Korean Protoss are clearly a cut above their foreign counterparts there. Terran, well, not much to say. They're the ranged glass cannon race, so every improvement in micro, multitasking, and general tactical savvy produces a corresponding bump in efficacy. Top terran players look untouchable when they're firing on cylinders and pathetic when they're not. That level of play doesn't appear to be achievable on a consistent basis, which is, IMO, why Terran players still do well in the GSL and suck at weekenders (having a week to prepare for each series and play in comfortable, familiar surroundings as opposed to flying all over the world, dealing with jet-lag, foreign food, illness, while having to mass games against unknown opponents). | ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland25503 Posts
On April 23 2019 09:14 Athenau wrote: I think Zerg unit design is, at least in part, to blame as well. The most efficient Zerg units (lings, banes, hydras) are almost devoid of micro potential. In big fights you might pre-split and flank, and that's about it. You can send lings on runbys, but there's no real point in continually microing them once they get in, since you don't care about getting them out again. The most effective strategy with banes is to just blow your bank on morphing a huge number and overwhelming with brute force since banes are so supply efficient, and at that point any sort of small-scale unit micro is pointless. Hydras are units with decent range and speed (especially on creep) but have such a terrible damage-point that Zerg pros often don't bother to do the most basic stutter-stepping, even on creep. Roaches and ravagers are in theory more amenable to micro, but in practice are so much less efficient in the mid-long term that there's no real point in trying to maximize the value you get out of them. Mutas are, of course, a poster child for high skill-cap units, but the meta doesn't favor them in PvZ, though Koreans still ike them in TvZ, though even there they tend to get phased out much faster than in previous expansions because the mid-game is much shorter. Injects have a crazy high skill-cap in theory, but if you don't need to hit 100% efficiency to saturate your income then it doesn't matter in practice, and in fact that's what we see. Every mid-tier foreign Zerg pro can macro well and cover the map in creep if they don't fuck up their early game, to the point where it's hard to distinguish them from the best Zergs under "normal" circumstances. Lategame army control with a lot of spellcasters is another avenue for better Zergs to stand out (*cough* Dark), but if you have to hit the lategame first, which means the actual impact of being really good at lategame on tournament success is diluted by the pre-requisite of not dying before getting there. TL;DR version: Zerg has fewer ways to stand out mechanically, and the high skill-cap things they do have turn out to matter less than they should due to both race design and the current metagame. Protoss, on the other hand, is more mechanically challenging in LotV than you give them credit for. Some of the prism juggling shenanigans that the best Protoss players can do produce miraculous outcomes--the ability for Protoss players to properly position and split their gateway armies, cast forcefields and storms, and pickup-micro their power units is absolutely key in top-level PvZ, for example, and Korean Protoss are clearly a cut above their foreign counterparts there. Terran, well, not much to say. They're the ranged glass cannon race, so every improvement in micro, multitasking, and general tactical savvy produces a corresponding bump in efficacy. Top terran players look untouchable when they're firing on cylinders and pathetic when they're not. That level of play doesn't appear to be achievable on a consistent basis, which is, IMO, why Terran players still do well in the GSL and suck at weekenders (having a week to prepare for each series and play in comfortable, familiar surroundings as opposed to flying all over the world, dealing with jet-lag, foreign food, illness, while having to mass games against unknown opponents). I do largely agree. Bar the Zerg mechanical part, I guess I’m talking mechanics in all things. They have more stuff than the other races, and thus the more they can do with that stuff in combination with how the race works in a production sense and how that works with information. Their mechanics scale well with gathering the information that works in conjunction with this, and it’s this that separates the best Zergs from the rest, and it’s trying to do all of this at once that makes the ceiling so high. Continuously shaving off individual scouting speedlings all game, finding angles for multipronged attacks, not committing too much to them and making optimal use of ling runbys or small roach hitsquads while keeping up the baseline of solid macro that most decent pros can do is what makes the elite Zergs so crazy. The more things you have to do, or can do, the higher that ceiling gets mechanically. Agree on the micro part, Dark’s lategame control is pretty nuts. I’m not a good player by any means but I’ve found controlling multiple spellcaster armies in lategame probably the hardest thing for me to do personally. Protoss is harder than people make out, and all you mentioned is difficult to do, also generally under appreciated. A lot of their unit’s micro potential scales really badly though. I like units like phoenixes and blink stalkers a lot for example. It’s why, outside of silly proxies I quite like PvP when it’s in that sub 90 supply phase because the engagements are super technical and micro intensive. I don’t even think it’s a bad thing in a strategy game, what differentiates the best Protoss from the rest is consistently good decision making and positioning more than outright mechanics. | ||
|
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On April 23 2019 05:58 deacon.frost wrote: You can't just go with who wins the tournaments, FFS at this tournament you can see a Terran in the finals, everything right, isn't it? At the same time we had 2 Terrans in RO16 one of whom was an invite... You simply can't look at wins, at least look at who's in the finals and if you want to go super cereal, then take away statistic anomalies(which basically means remove Maru and Serral out of the equation ATM). Which shifts the balance in a way you won't like. actually i can just go with who wins the tournament especially when it's multiple terran players winning across multiple patches throughout the entirety of LotV, not just maru like you suggest it is, if im undertanding you correctly | ||
| ||
