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On April 20 2019 06:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
just realized i went 1/8 on liquibets for this first round of play, that's less than ideal. thank sOs at least
This tournament has been a complete liquibet bloodbath. I've gone 3/8 and have still advanced 30 spots in the ranking!
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On April 20 2019 04:21 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 03:12 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 02:38 Moonerz wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. To me the most telling sign of imbalance is when you see lesser players making waves like Hurricane and Parting (right now I think it's clear hes a level below most top pros and his games vs Ragnarok were absolutely terrible) while you have Inno and TY who are 2 of the top 3 Terrans sitting at home unable to qualify. But we'll see how things shake out going forward. Like I said a little while ago there is a fine line between letting the meta settle and fixing imbalance because of the way WCS points work. As a side note, of course it's impossible to see what exactly happened during the qualifiers since we didn't see any of the games. And yet nobody bats an eye when stats code S tour is ended by Cure. Or when world class players in zest and sOs don't win anything anymore. Or when classic is eliminated by guys like reynor and special Innovation just won wesg and maru code S so idk what you're talking about. Terran players are making waves - in the most lucrative/most prestigious tournaments ( super tournament is small time compared to wesg and code S). Is TY really currently a top 3 Terran when gumiho is playing so well? Or are you just going off of TYs past success in which case you can't be so disparaging on parting Protoss finds some success in a lesser premier tournament and everyone has a heart attack. Protoss won like 3 premier tournaments since 2018 and they were small time. Hell one is neebs wcs NA which might as well be bush league compared to everything else. Let me know when Protoss or Zerg win every code S for two years straight. Hell let me know when Zerg wins a single code S in lotv Zest and sOs have both had enormous holes in their play for at least two years now
The point I'm making is that for protoss players it's always "they are not playing well" and for terran players it's "they can't do anything [due to balance issues]"
On April 20 2019 04:33 Spirit_HUN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 04:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 03:05 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2019 02:17 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 00:33 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. Because we have so many terrans and terran champions in the WCS right? 7/8 in a tournament is a sign? Most likely. Does prove toss is too imbalaced? Not yet, but saying that this has no meaning its nothing short of disengenious, and trying to steer the conversation to something that happened 8 years ago (where people DID complain that terran was IMBA) is just down right malicius. Hm, what? I'm not sure I get your point about WCS(maybe you didn't get mine as well). 7/8 in one tournament means nothing, by itself. Protoss won 4/19 Premier tournaments(three korean ones) including this one since the start of 2018(despite reaching the finals at least 14 times); this is not how imbalance looks like, whereas Terran eight years ago won a disproportionate amount of tournaments. Let's see if Protoss start dominating after Super Tournament before making any kind of claim about their supposed opness. It's the 2nd tournament where terran severely underperformed. 2 "accidents" in such a short time span while this basically never happens usually except GomTvT/Blink/BLInfestor era? Seems hard to believe. And why do you bring up statistics from last year on a completely different patch??? Because people were screaming of Protoss op last year already; In 2019 Protoss is 2/5, also not that dominating. The funny part is that since then protoss was met with only nerfs except tempest, and Terran got some buffs and the same crowd is now saying the problem is getting worse If we assume they are correct what does that even imply? That most Terran pros are just patch terrans? (Obviously I don't think this is the case ) "Only nerfs" like warp gate research speed or the cheaper robotics? Observer speed buff which isnt that significant. In PvZ protoss mid game is way too good now. Immortals are beyond broken and the warp prism costs nothing compared to its real value.
the warp gate buff means the protoss may have one extra unit if he decides he wants it....very minor. so unless you think the crux of any major tvp problem is extreme early game i dont see how this is that relevant.
the limiting factor for robotics is gas...again a minuscule
It's funny how your issue with PvZ is the one area of the matchup where Protoss has the chance to make use of really high opportunity cost micro. Both Immortals and Warp prisms need insane micro or they will just get overrun. It is so easy for a zerg to steamroll a protoss it's not even funny. Protoss would never be able to engage on creep to try to end the game without a warp prism either
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On April 20 2019 07:20 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 04:21 starkiller123 wrote:On April 20 2019 03:12 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 02:38 Moonerz wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. To me the most telling sign of imbalance is when you see lesser players making waves like Hurricane and Parting (right now I think it's clear hes a level below most top pros and his games vs Ragnarok were absolutely terrible) while you have Inno and TY who are 2 of the top 3 Terrans sitting at home unable to qualify. But we'll see how things shake out going forward. Like I said a little while ago there is a fine line between letting the meta settle and fixing imbalance because of the way WCS points work. As a side note, of course it's impossible to see what exactly happened during the qualifiers since we didn't see any of the games. And yet nobody bats an eye when stats code S tour is ended by Cure. Or when world class players in zest and sOs don't win anything anymore. Or when classic is eliminated by guys like reynor and special Innovation just won wesg and maru code S so idk what you're talking about. Terran players are making waves - in the most lucrative/most prestigious tournaments ( super tournament is small time compared to wesg and code S). Is TY really currently a top 3 Terran when gumiho is playing so well? Or are you just going off of TYs past success in which case you can't be so disparaging on parting Protoss finds some success in a lesser premier tournament and everyone has a heart attack. Protoss won like 3 premier tournaments since 2018 and they were small time. Hell one is neebs wcs NA which might as well be bush league compared to everything else. Let me know when Protoss or Zerg win every code S for two years straight. Hell let me know when Zerg wins a single code S in lotv Zest and sOs have both had enormous holes in their play for at least two years now The point I'm making is that for protoss players it's always "they are not playing well" and for terran players it's "they can't do anything [due to balance issues]" Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 04:33 Spirit_HUN wrote:On April 20 2019 04:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 03:05 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2019 02:17 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 00:33 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. Because we have so many terrans and terran champions in the WCS right? 7/8 in a tournament is a sign? Most likely. Does prove toss is too imbalaced? Not yet, but saying that this has no meaning its nothing short of disengenious, and trying to steer the conversation to something that happened 8 years ago (where people DID complain that terran was IMBA) is just down right malicius. Hm, what? I'm not sure I get your point about WCS(maybe you didn't get mine as well). 7/8 in one tournament means nothing, by itself. Protoss won 4/19 Premier tournaments(three korean ones) including this one since the start of 2018(despite reaching the finals at least 14 times); this is not how imbalance looks like, whereas Terran eight years ago won a disproportionate amount of tournaments. Let's see if Protoss start dominating after Super Tournament before making any kind of claim about their supposed opness. It's the 2nd tournament where terran severely underperformed. 2 "accidents" in such a short time span while this basically never happens usually except GomTvT/Blink/BLInfestor era? Seems hard to believe. And why do you bring up statistics from last year on a completely different patch??? Because people were screaming of Protoss op last year already; In 2019 Protoss is 2/5, also not that dominating. The funny part is that since then protoss was met with only nerfs except tempest, and Terran got some buffs and the same crowd is now saying the problem is getting worse If we assume they are correct what does that even imply? That most Terran pros are just patch terrans? (Obviously I don't think this is the case ) "Only nerfs" like warp gate research speed or the cheaper robotics? Observer speed buff which isnt that significant. In PvZ protoss mid game is way too good now. Immortals are beyond broken and the warp prism costs nothing compared to its real value. the warp gate buff means the protoss may have one extra unit if he decides he wants it....very minor. so unless you think the crux of any major tvp problem is extreme early game i dont see how this is that relevant. the limiting factor for robotics is gas...again a minuscule It's funny how your issue with PvZ is the one area of the matchup where Protoss has the chance to make use of really high opportunity cost micro. Both Immortals and Warp prisms need insane micro or they will just get overrun. It is so easy for a zerg to steamroll a protoss it's not even funny. Protoss would never be able to engage on creep to try to end the game without a warp prism either
Basically I mean, historically the most complained about race that wins the least tournaments that basic stuff about how they function as a race seem to be thrown out the window.
In a hypothetical tournament where players had to reveal their rough plans (I’m going to play straight up macro, or ‘I’m going to all-in you) not giving away specific builds, Protoss just gets absolutely crushed PvZ, they absolutely need the ability to keep their opponents guessing and they need the potential to all-in
Protoss can’t just play for the late game and win with their mechanics giving them cumulative edges. Basically everything that people praise Zergs, or Maru/TY in late game scenarios for Protoss players don’t really have the arsenal to do some of those things.
They need a prism to even push a Zerg properly, strong as it might be. In earlier iterations when the game was also less developed, pylons would do the job for reinforcement, creep spread gets out too far, too quickly for that to be at all viable.
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On April 20 2019 07:45 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 07:20 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 04:21 starkiller123 wrote:On April 20 2019 03:12 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 02:38 Moonerz wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. To me the most telling sign of imbalance is when you see lesser players making waves like Hurricane and Parting (right now I think it's clear hes a level below most top pros and his games vs Ragnarok were absolutely terrible) while you have Inno and TY who are 2 of the top 3 Terrans sitting at home unable to qualify. But we'll see how things shake out going forward. Like I said a little while ago there is a fine line between letting the meta settle and fixing imbalance because of the way WCS points work. As a side note, of course it's impossible to see what exactly happened during the qualifiers since we didn't see any of the games. And yet nobody bats an eye when stats code S tour is ended by Cure. Or when world class players in zest and sOs don't win anything anymore. Or when classic is eliminated by guys like reynor and special Innovation just won wesg and maru code S so idk what you're talking about. Terran players are making waves - in the most lucrative/most prestigious tournaments ( super tournament is small time compared to wesg and code S). Is TY really currently a top 3 Terran when gumiho is playing so well? Or are you just going off of TYs past success in which case you can't be so disparaging on parting Protoss finds some success in a lesser premier tournament and everyone has a heart attack. Protoss won like 3 premier tournaments since 2018 and they were small time. Hell one is neebs wcs NA which might as well be bush league compared to everything else. Let me know when Protoss or Zerg win every code S for two years straight. Hell let me know when Zerg wins a single code S in lotv Zest and sOs have both had enormous holes in their play for at least two years now The point I'm making is that for protoss players it's always "they are not playing well" and for terran players it's "they can't do anything [due to balance issues]" On April 20 2019 04:33 Spirit_HUN wrote:On April 20 2019 04:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 03:05 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2019 02:17 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 00:33 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:
[quote]
I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. Because we have so many terrans and terran champions in the WCS right? 7/8 in a tournament is a sign? Most likely. Does prove toss is too imbalaced? Not yet, but saying that this has no meaning its nothing short of disengenious, and trying to steer the conversation to something that happened 8 years ago (where people DID complain that terran was IMBA) is just down right malicius. Hm, what? I'm not sure I get your point about WCS(maybe you didn't get mine as well). 7/8 in one tournament means nothing, by itself. Protoss won 4/19 Premier tournaments(three korean ones) including this one since the start of 2018(despite reaching the finals at least 14 times); this is not how imbalance looks like, whereas Terran eight years ago won a disproportionate amount of tournaments. Let's see if Protoss start dominating after Super Tournament before making any kind of claim about their supposed opness. It's the 2nd tournament where terran severely underperformed. 2 "accidents" in such a short time span while this basically never happens usually except GomTvT/Blink/BLInfestor era? Seems hard to believe. And why do you bring up statistics from last year on a completely different patch??? Because people were screaming of Protoss op last year already; In 2019 Protoss is 2/5, also not that dominating. The funny part is that since then protoss was met with only nerfs except tempest, and Terran got some buffs and the same crowd is now saying the problem is getting worse If we assume they are correct what does that even imply? That most Terran pros are just patch terrans? (Obviously I don't think this is the case ) "Only nerfs" like warp gate research speed or the cheaper robotics? Observer speed buff which isnt that significant. In PvZ protoss mid game is way too good now. Immortals are beyond broken and the warp prism costs nothing compared to its real value. the warp gate buff means the protoss may have one extra unit if he decides he wants it....very minor. so unless you think the crux of any major tvp problem is extreme early game i dont see how this is that relevant. the limiting factor for robotics is gas...again a minuscule It's funny how your issue with PvZ is the one area of the matchup where Protoss has the chance to make use of really high opportunity cost micro. Both Immortals and Warp prisms need insane micro or they will just get overrun. It is so easy for a zerg to steamroll a protoss it's not even funny. Protoss would never be able to engage on creep to try to end the game without a warp prism either Basically I mean, historically the most complained about race that wins the least tournaments that basic stuff about how they function as a race seem to be thrown out the window. In a hypothetical tournament where players had to reveal their rough plans (I’m going to play straight up macro, or ‘I’m going to all-in you) not giving away specific builds, Protoss just gets absolutely crushed PvZ, they absolutely need the ability to keep their opponents guessing and they need the potential to all-in Protoss can’t just play for the late game and win with their mechanics giving them cumulative edges. Basically everything that people praise Zergs, or Maru/TY in late game scenarios for Protoss players don’t really have the arsenal to do some of those things. They need a prism to even push a Zerg properly, strong as it might be. In earlier iterations when the game was also less developed, pylons would do the job for reinforcement, creep spread gets out too far, too quickly for that to be at all viable.
yea. classic vs dark and rogue in this year's code s S1 were prime examples. Classic went to huge lengths and extremely specific preparations to have a shot at toppling them. Major gambles involving builds designed to the exact map tiles. meanwhile dark and rogue more or less just played like they would against any other protoss on any other day, and their mechanics made everything close
even classic vs maru. the difference in preparation was obvious to me
i suspect it's why protoss always struggles actually winning the tournaments since the finals are all best of 7. you can have only so many plans
it's also why i was immensely impressed with stats vs maru. the way stats adapted to maru's new build and squeezed out that game 4 win was insane. they are both geniuses of the game
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On April 20 2019 08:21 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 07:45 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 20 2019 07:20 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 04:21 starkiller123 wrote:On April 20 2019 03:12 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 02:38 Moonerz wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. To me the most telling sign of imbalance is when you see lesser players making waves like Hurricane and Parting (right now I think it's clear hes a level below most top pros and his games vs Ragnarok were absolutely terrible) while you have Inno and TY who are 2 of the top 3 Terrans sitting at home unable to qualify. But we'll see how things shake out going forward. Like I said a little while ago there is a fine line between letting the meta settle and fixing imbalance because of the way WCS points work. As a side note, of course it's impossible to see what exactly happened during the qualifiers since we didn't see any of the games. And yet nobody bats an eye when stats code S tour is ended by Cure. Or when world class players in zest and sOs don't win anything anymore. Or when classic is eliminated by guys like reynor and special Innovation just won wesg and maru code S so idk what you're talking about. Terran players are making waves - in the most lucrative/most prestigious tournaments ( super tournament is small time compared to wesg and code S). Is TY really currently a top 3 Terran when gumiho is playing so well? Or are you just going off of TYs past success in which case you can't be so disparaging on parting Protoss finds some success in a lesser premier tournament and everyone has a heart attack. Protoss won like 3 premier tournaments since 2018 and they were small time. Hell one is neebs wcs NA which might as well be bush league compared to everything else. Let me know when Protoss or Zerg win every code S for two years straight. Hell let me know when Zerg wins a single code S in lotv Zest and sOs have both had enormous holes in their play for at least two years now The point I'm making is that for protoss players it's always "they are not playing well" and for terran players it's "they can't do anything [due to balance issues]" On April 20 2019 04:33 Spirit_HUN wrote:On April 20 2019 04:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 03:05 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2019 02:17 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 00:33 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era.
PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments.
Because we have so many terrans and terran champions in the WCS right? 7/8 in a tournament is a sign? Most likely. Does prove toss is too imbalaced? Not yet, but saying that this has no meaning its nothing short of disengenious, and trying to steer the conversation to something that happened 8 years ago (where people DID complain that terran was IMBA) is just down right malicius. Hm, what? I'm not sure I get your point about WCS(maybe you didn't get mine as well). 7/8 in one tournament means nothing, by itself. Protoss won 4/19 Premier tournaments(three korean ones) including this one since the start of 2018(despite reaching the finals at least 14 times); this is not how imbalance looks like, whereas Terran eight years ago won a disproportionate amount of tournaments. Let's see if Protoss start dominating after Super Tournament before making any kind of claim about their supposed opness. It's the 2nd tournament where terran severely underperformed. 2 "accidents" in such a short time span while this basically never happens usually except GomTvT/Blink/BLInfestor era? Seems hard to believe. And why do you bring up statistics from last year on a completely different patch??? Because people were screaming of Protoss op last year already; In 2019 Protoss is 2/5, also not that dominating. The funny part is that since then protoss was met with only nerfs except tempest, and Terran got some buffs and the same crowd is now saying the problem is getting worse If we assume they are correct what does that even imply? That most Terran pros are just patch terrans? (Obviously I don't think this is the case ) "Only nerfs" like warp gate research speed or the cheaper robotics? Observer speed buff which isnt that significant. In PvZ protoss mid game is way too good now. Immortals are beyond broken and the warp prism costs nothing compared to its real value. the warp gate buff means the protoss may have one extra unit if he decides he wants it....very minor. so unless you think the crux of any major tvp problem is extreme early game i dont see how this is that relevant. the limiting factor for robotics is gas...again a minuscule It's funny how your issue with PvZ is the one area of the matchup where Protoss has the chance to make use of really high opportunity cost micro. Both Immortals and Warp prisms need insane micro or they will just get overrun. It is so easy for a zerg to steamroll a protoss it's not even funny. Protoss would never be able to engage on creep to try to end the game without a warp prism either Basically I mean, historically the most complained about race that wins the least tournaments that basic stuff about how they function as a race seem to be thrown out the window. In a hypothetical tournament where players had to reveal their rough plans (I’m going to play straight up macro, or ‘I’m going to all-in you) not giving away specific builds, Protoss just gets absolutely crushed PvZ, they absolutely need the ability to keep their opponents guessing and they need the potential to all-in Protoss can’t just play for the late game and win with their mechanics giving them cumulative edges. Basically everything that people praise Zergs, or Maru/TY in late game scenarios for Protoss players don’t really have the arsenal to do some of those things. They need a prism to even push a Zerg properly, strong as it might be. In earlier iterations when the game was also less developed, pylons would do the job for reinforcement, creep spread gets out too far, too quickly for that to be at all viable. yea. classic vs dark and rogue in this year's code s S1 were prime examples. Classic went to huge lengths and extremely specific preparations to have a shot at toppling them. Major gambles involving builds designed to the exact map tiles. meanwhile dark and rogue more or less just played like they would against any other protoss on any other day, and their mechanics made everything close even classic vs maru. the difference in preparation was obvious to me i suspect it's why protoss always struggles actually winning the tournaments since the finals are all best of 7. you can have only so many plans it's also why i was immensely impressed with stats vs maru. the way stats adapted to maru's new build and squeezed out that game 4 win was insane. they are both geniuses of the game
Totally agree. Was a treat to watch that series.
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Northern Ireland25507 Posts
On April 20 2019 08:21 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 07:45 Wombat_NI wrote:On April 20 2019 07:20 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 04:21 starkiller123 wrote:On April 20 2019 03:12 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 02:38 Moonerz wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. To me the most telling sign of imbalance is when you see lesser players making waves like Hurricane and Parting (right now I think it's clear hes a level below most top pros and his games vs Ragnarok were absolutely terrible) while you have Inno and TY who are 2 of the top 3 Terrans sitting at home unable to qualify. But we'll see how things shake out going forward. Like I said a little while ago there is a fine line between letting the meta settle and fixing imbalance because of the way WCS points work. As a side note, of course it's impossible to see what exactly happened during the qualifiers since we didn't see any of the games. And yet nobody bats an eye when stats code S tour is ended by Cure. Or when world class players in zest and sOs don't win anything anymore. Or when classic is eliminated by guys like reynor and special Innovation just won wesg and maru code S so idk what you're talking about. Terran players are making waves - in the most lucrative/most prestigious tournaments ( super tournament is small time compared to wesg and code S). Is TY really currently a top 3 Terran when gumiho is playing so well? Or are you just going off of TYs past success in which case you can't be so disparaging on parting Protoss finds some success in a lesser premier tournament and everyone has a heart attack. Protoss won like 3 premier tournaments since 2018 and they were small time. Hell one is neebs wcs NA which might as well be bush league compared to everything else. Let me know when Protoss or Zerg win every code S for two years straight. Hell let me know when Zerg wins a single code S in lotv Zest and sOs have both had enormous holes in their play for at least two years now The point I'm making is that for protoss players it's always "they are not playing well" and for terran players it's "they can't do anything [due to balance issues]" On April 20 2019 04:33 Spirit_HUN wrote:On April 20 2019 04:09 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 03:05 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On April 20 2019 02:17 Xain0n wrote:On April 20 2019 00:33 Lexender wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era.
PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments.
Because we have so many terrans and terran champions in the WCS right? 7/8 in a tournament is a sign? Most likely. Does prove toss is too imbalaced? Not yet, but saying that this has no meaning its nothing short of disengenious, and trying to steer the conversation to something that happened 8 years ago (where people DID complain that terran was IMBA) is just down right malicius. Hm, what? I'm not sure I get your point about WCS(maybe you didn't get mine as well). 7/8 in one tournament means nothing, by itself. Protoss won 4/19 Premier tournaments(three korean ones) including this one since the start of 2018(despite reaching the finals at least 14 times); this is not how imbalance looks like, whereas Terran eight years ago won a disproportionate amount of tournaments. Let's see if Protoss start dominating after Super Tournament before making any kind of claim about their supposed opness. It's the 2nd tournament where terran severely underperformed. 2 "accidents" in such a short time span while this basically never happens usually except GomTvT/Blink/BLInfestor era? Seems hard to believe. And why do you bring up statistics from last year on a completely different patch??? Because people were screaming of Protoss op last year already; In 2019 Protoss is 2/5, also not that dominating. The funny part is that since then protoss was met with only nerfs except tempest, and Terran got some buffs and the same crowd is now saying the problem is getting worse If we assume they are correct what does that even imply? That most Terran pros are just patch terrans? (Obviously I don't think this is the case ) "Only nerfs" like warp gate research speed or the cheaper robotics? Observer speed buff which isnt that significant. In PvZ protoss mid game is way too good now. Immortals are beyond broken and the warp prism costs nothing compared to its real value. the warp gate buff means the protoss may have one extra unit if he decides he wants it....very minor. so unless you think the crux of any major tvp problem is extreme early game i dont see how this is that relevant. the limiting factor for robotics is gas...again a minuscule It's funny how your issue with PvZ is the one area of the matchup where Protoss has the chance to make use of really high opportunity cost micro. Both Immortals and Warp prisms need insane micro or they will just get overrun. It is so easy for a zerg to steamroll a protoss it's not even funny. Protoss would never be able to engage on creep to try to end the game without a warp prism either Basically I mean, historically the most complained about race that wins the least tournaments that basic stuff about how they function as a race seem to be thrown out the window. In a hypothetical tournament where players had to reveal their rough plans (I’m going to play straight up macro, or ‘I’m going to all-in you) not giving away specific builds, Protoss just gets absolutely crushed PvZ, they absolutely need the ability to keep their opponents guessing and they need the potential to all-in Protoss can’t just play for the late game and win with their mechanics giving them cumulative edges. Basically everything that people praise Zergs, or Maru/TY in late game scenarios for Protoss players don’t really have the arsenal to do some of those things. They need a prism to even push a Zerg properly, strong as it might be. In earlier iterations when the game was also less developed, pylons would do the job for reinforcement, creep spread gets out too far, too quickly for that to be at all viable. yea. classic vs dark and rogue in this year's code s S1 were prime examples. Classic went to huge lengths and extremely specific preparations to have a shot at toppling them. Major gambles involving builds designed to the exact map tiles. meanwhile dark and rogue more or less just played like they would against any other protoss on any other day, and their mechanics made everything close even classic vs maru. the difference in preparation was obvious to me i suspect it's why protoss always struggles actually winning the tournaments since the finals are all best of 7. you can have only so many plans it's also why i was immensely impressed with stats vs maru. the way stats adapted to maru's new build and squeezed out that game 4 win was insane. they are both geniuses of the game
Yeah it just seems that way to me anyway, long has. Depends on the bracket or other factors too I guess. I loved Stats’ PvZ opener and style he was using at IEM Katowice, at my heart I’ve always been a Rain/Stats kind of Protoss than an MC/Parting, so that opener was really cool and he took out Dark pretty convincingly, soO seemed to have taken it on board and adjusted some things by the time the final happened.
Preparing for Maru must be a nightmare haha, as he’s super good with prep and he can pull out crazy cheese at one end and insane straight up play at the other. At least for Zergs it’s usually playing straight up macro with a bit of aggression to factor in
Great series, was really interesting in a lot of ways. It’s nice having Artosis cast anyway, but he was especially hyped this one.
I’ve only rewatched it once, Stats did lots of important things that added up, those Stalker squads did work. Also whenever they did get caught Stats made sure to target fire solely the cyclones, didn’t even waste too many volleys
Which was kinda important outside of dragging Maru around the map, but also in stopping a critical mass of cyclones building up and Maru just diving on his carriers
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On April 20 2019 07:12 sneakyfox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 06:27 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:
just realized i went 1/8 on liquibets for this first round of play, that's less than ideal. thank sOs at least This tournament has been a complete liquibet bloodbath. I've gone 3/8 and have still advanced 30 spots in the ranking!
5/8. Which is probably why I'm rank 1 atm 
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On April 20 2019 07:20 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 04:21 starkiller123 wrote:On April 20 2019 03:12 BerserkSword wrote:On April 20 2019 02:38 Moonerz wrote:On April 19 2019 23:39 Xain0n wrote:On April 19 2019 22:13 Fango wrote:On April 19 2019 20:55 Xain0n wrote:
The very weid fact is that you would be all so happy if we had 7/8 Terran left. I don't get why people say this. No we wouldn't. During GomTvT there was 6/8 at the most and terran was universally considered too strong Protoss isn't too strong right now, they are only winning Super Tournaments(and lagging behind on Aligulac) while Terran definitely were dominating every kind of competition back in GoMTvT era. PvP is not the best mirror to watch atm, I agree, I would argue ZvZ(not TvT) is and I still see people complaining every WCS; I meant many would be glad if there were Terran everywhere, regardless of balance. Let's say they seem to be the most loved race on this forum, judging by the comments. To me the most telling sign of imbalance is when you see lesser players making waves like Hurricane and Parting (right now I think it's clear hes a level below most top pros and his games vs Ragnarok were absolutely terrible) while you have Inno and TY who are 2 of the top 3 Terrans sitting at home unable to qualify. But we'll see how things shake out going forward. Like I said a little while ago there is a fine line between letting the meta settle and fixing imbalance because of the way WCS points work. As a side note, of course it's impossible to see what exactly happened during the qualifiers since we didn't see any of the games. And yet nobody bats an eye when stats code S tour is ended by Cure. Or when world class players in zest and sOs don't win anything anymore. Or when classic is eliminated by guys like reynor and special Innovation just won wesg and maru code S so idk what you're talking about. Terran players are making waves - in the most lucrative/most prestigious tournaments ( super tournament is small time compared to wesg and code S). Is TY really currently a top 3 Terran when gumiho is playing so well? Or are you just going off of TYs past success in which case you can't be so disparaging on parting Protoss finds some success in a lesser premier tournament and everyone has a heart attack. Protoss won like 3 premier tournaments since 2018 and they were small time. Hell one is neebs wcs NA which might as well be bush league compared to everything else. Let me know when Protoss or Zerg win every code S for two years straight. Hell let me know when Zerg wins a single code S in lotv Zest and sOs have both had enormous holes in their play for at least two years now The point I'm making is that for protoss players it's always "they are not playing well" and for terran players it's "they can't do anything [due to balance issues]"
That's grand, did anyone say Byun was playing well and getting fucked by balance in 2017? Did anyone defend Innovation's sloppyness last year? Stats lost to Cure yes, but he also lost to MC that day, he was going lose to any of the other 30 players.
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Gumigod keeping terran&zergs dreams alive
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EPT
