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On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues.
But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG.
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On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG.
I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon.
It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players).
And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions.
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Northern Ireland26765 Posts
On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG.
I was shocked when I found out how low the pool for the Super Tournament is, I don’t see why the best players in the works can’t get a prize pool boost, even if it’s just via the warchest or whatever that’s called.
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Canada8990 Posts
On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions.
I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player.
There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation.
But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league.
It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers.
Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it.
That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect...
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On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect...
The only thing I have to add it's that Stats had the best numbers and herO the most overall and ace victories.
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Canada8990 Posts
Placement matches
Theses polls are closed
Match 1
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Jaedong
☐ GuMiho
Match 2
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Leenock
☐ BuyN
Match 3
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Dark
☐ Rain
Match 4
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ HyuN
☐ Bomber
Polls are open until tomorrow June 9 around 8pm EST
Placement bracket has been added to the liquipedia page:  User:User:Nakajin/Greatest of all time pool placement matches
Theses polls are closed
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Northern Ireland26765 Posts
Interesting that all of the Protoss players outside of MC in a GOAT poll are still active at the top, but their doing well is met with Protoss OP all the time.
Also as the second to vote in the placements, whoever voted first had the exact same votes as me, so well played for having good taste or something
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All four of these matches are surprisingly close imo.
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Feel like it's bracket luck that Polt is top 16, and I liked the dude. Rain certainly was superior, Gumiho and Bomber less so. maybe I'm underrating polts creativity. wcs America was weak but he did win more than bomber...
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Northern Ireland26765 Posts
It’s a remarkably good list all things considered, I’m surprised there’s been less weird bracket luck so good job all round l.
Rain and Serral I feel are the big absentees for me, although it’s difficult to figure who to swap them for.
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On June 09 2019 10:16 RatzBarcode wrote:
Feel like it's bracket luck that Polt is top 16, and I liked the dude. Rain certainly was superior, Gumiho and Bomber less so. maybe I'm underrating polts creativity. wcs America was weak but he did win more than bomber...
I dunno why you even mention GuMiho when discussing the top 16. To me it's debatable if he should even be top 32. If you ignore his cool playstyle and look at his results he's basically jjakji.
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Northern Ireland26765 Posts
On June 09 2019 10:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 10:16 RatzBarcode wrote:
Feel like it's bracket luck that Polt is top 16, and I liked the dude. Rain certainly was superior, Gumiho and Bomber less so. maybe I'm underrating polts creativity. wcs America was weak but he did win more than bomber... I dunno why you even mention GuMiho when discussing the top 16. To me it's debatable if he should even be top 32. If you ignore his cool playstyle and look at his results he's basically jjakji.
How can one ignore his intriguing playstyle? It’s like judging a porn star outside the sex.
In a strategy game surely there’s got to be room for an idiosyncratic fellow to maybe punch above his pure results purely based upon their strategic innovation and approaches to things, against players the person himself says are mechanically superior.
Top 16 no IMO, top 32 though I don’t think is that debatable, I can’t think of a huge amount off hand who would push him out of that.
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Brazil3449 Posts
On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect...
Life's proleague record in particular is very weird. KT once seemed proud of their new superstar and were using him left and right, soon enough they were fielding him less and less, and in the end he had a mediocre Proleague career with them and asked to leave. I imagine they caught on with his matchfixing very fast, which is not surprising because he was probably a monster during practice. I remember i was looking thru his proleague matches trying to find the matchfixing but they were extremely bland and boring (Especially by Life's standards) so i kinda gave up.
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On June 09 2019 10:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 10:16 RatzBarcode wrote:
Feel like it's bracket luck that Polt is top 16, and I liked the dude. Rain certainly was superior, Gumiho and Bomber less so. maybe I'm underrating polts creativity. wcs America was weak but he did win more than bomber... I dunno why you even mention GuMiho when discussing the top 16. To me it's debatable if he should even be top 32. If you ignore his cool playstyle and look at his results he's basically jjakji.
Longevity. Gumiho has literally made/played in the most GSLs. I realize that's partly a function of right place right time (aka not an achievement that Stats could ever have) and he doesn't have title sucess, but that means he's been top 30 for the game's lifespan, and didn't retreat away from Korea. Everyone else on the list is an all-time great except for Keen. And I guess Leenock, who is sort of a Zerg Gumiho.
liquipedia.net
Jjakji has 7 GSL, and yes, one garbage win. Gumiho has 21 GSL, and a modern day GSL title. You insult Gumiho
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On June 09 2019 11:20 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... Life's proleague record in particular is very weird. KT once seemed proud of their new superstar and were using him left and right, soon enough they were fielding him less and less, and in the end he had a mediocre Proleague career with them and asked to leave. I imagine they caught on with his matchfixing very fast, which is not surprising because he was probably a monster during practice. I remember i was looking thru his proleague matches trying to find the matchfixing but they were extremely bland and boring (Especially by Life's standards) so i kinda gave up.
Do you mean he threw a whole bunch of Proleague games, or that his losses were boring and you couldn't tell?
I think I remember he manually ("accidentally") detonated a large number of banes, I remember Wolf and Valdez being baffled by it and I think it was referenced as one of the games in the court filings
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Brazil3449 Posts
On June 09 2019 15:30 RatzBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 11:20 Morbidius wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... Life's proleague record in particular is very weird. KT once seemed proud of their new superstar and were using him left and right, soon enough they were fielding him less and less, and in the end he had a mediocre Proleague career with them and asked to leave. I imagine they caught on with his matchfixing very fast, which is not surprising because he was probably a monster during practice. I remember i was looking thru his proleague matches trying to find the matchfixing but they were extremely bland and boring (Especially by Life's standards) so i kinda gave up. Do you mean he threw a whole bunch of Proleague games, or that his losses were boring and you couldn't tell? I think I remember he manually ("accidentally") detonated a large number of banes, I remember Wolf and Valdez being baffled by it and I think it was referenced as one of the games in the court filings
It was bland because he was the best player in the world and it all looked totally normal. He wasn't playing his finest, but still wasn't enough to convince me of matchfixing. No banelings autodetonations, no losing 3 drones to a reaper, no ragequits the moment he gets behind. The more interesting point is how KT didn't really use him despite him being the best Zerg in the world. When he asked for a transfer i imagine the coaches were already acussing him of throwing. Hell, soO says he got accused of matchfixing in 2014 because a 4 time GSL finalist should have done better. If you know the game where he blew up banes please tell us. I know for sure he lost Heavy Rain to Taeja in Katowice due to a baneling detonation.
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Brazil3449 Posts
Double post sorry, too many quotes drive me mad.
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On June 09 2019 15:30 RatzBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 11:20 Morbidius wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... Life's proleague record in particular is very weird. KT once seemed proud of their new superstar and were using him left and right, soon enough they were fielding him less and less, and in the end he had a mediocre Proleague career with them and asked to leave. I imagine they caught on with his matchfixing very fast, which is not surprising because he was probably a monster during practice. I remember i was looking thru his proleague matches trying to find the matchfixing but they were extremely bland and boring (Especially by Life's standards) so i kinda gave up. Do you mean he threw a whole bunch of Proleague games, or that his losses were boring and you couldn't tell? I think I remember he manually ("accidentally") detonated a large number of banes, I remember Wolf and Valdez being baffled by it and I think it was referenced as one of the games in the court filings
No it wasnt. He blundered the banes vs Taeja in an individual tournament.
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EPT
