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Canada8989 Posts
On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice.
Still haven't vote on that one, I need to think about it.
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I think it was close one between DRG and Serral but I feel like Serral made it harder for himself by not playing GSL (if he did, I think he'd probably have more achievements). Also, i think sooner than later, Serral will surpass DRG in achievements if he hasn't already so I voted Serral because I think he has more potential than what his achievements say about him.
Edit: I think on paper DRG has more achievements so I think it is definitely pretty difficult to decide. I didn't really follow WoL so I don't really know of the context of his achievements but Serral had super high winrates against Koreans and a really long win streak. Also, he was probably top 5-top 10 in the early part of 2018, second best player for the middle of 2018, and the best player towards the end of 2018.
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On June 11 2019 11:32 Anc13nt wrote:
I think it was close one between DRG and Serral but I feel like Serral made it harder for himself by not playing GSL (if he did, I think he'd probably have more achievements). Also, i think sooner than later, Serral will surpass DRG in achievements if he hasn't already so I voted Serral because I think he has more potential than what his achievements say about him.
Edit: I think on paper DRG has more achievements so I think it is definitely pretty difficult to decide. I didn't really follow WoL so I don't really know of the context of his achievements but Serral had super high winrates against Koreans and a really long win streak. Also, he was probably top 5-top 10 in the early part of 2018, second best player for the middle of 2018, and the best player towards the end of 2018.
The fact is region locking is acceptable when we only have bad foreigners, but when we get good ones like Neeb or Serral it becomes a disgrace where we don't really know where they stand, and have to wait months to see a tournament or a game between the very best. Would GSL look different if Serral was facing this Protoss meta? 6 months between WESG and GSL vs the World is ridiculous. I'd rather have 2 seasons of GSL and 2 seasons of WCS with a season finals in between like in 2013. I voted Serral, i think he has been pushing Zerg to the limit for the last year with extreme consistency. DRG in the latter half of 2012 was mostly trading evenly with what would be the next patch Zerg, and eventually got ran over by a Zerg who truly deserves the top 5.
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Northern Ireland26340 Posts
On June 11 2019 14:45 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 11:32 Anc13nt wrote:
I think it was close one between DRG and Serral but I feel like Serral made it harder for himself by not playing GSL (if he did, I think he'd probably have more achievements). Also, i think sooner than later, Serral will surpass DRG in achievements if he hasn't already so I voted Serral because I think he has more potential than what his achievements say about him.
Edit: I think on paper DRG has more achievements so I think it is definitely pretty difficult to decide. I didn't really follow WoL so I don't really know of the context of his achievements but Serral had super high winrates against Koreans and a really long win streak. Also, he was probably top 5-top 10 in the early part of 2018, second best player for the middle of 2018, and the best player towards the end of 2018. The fact is region locking is acceptable when we only have bad foreigners, but when we get good ones like Neeb or Serral it becomes a disgrace where we don't really know where they stand, and have to wait months to see a tournament or a game between the very best. Would GSL look different if Serral was facing this Protoss meta? 6 months between WESG and GSL vs the World is ridiculous. I'd rather have 2 seasons of GSL and 2 seasons of WCS with a season finals in between like in 2013. I voted Serral, i think he has been pushing Zerg to the limit for the last year with extreme consistency. DRG in the latter half of 2012 was mostly trading evenly with what would be the next patch Zerg, and eventually got ran over by a Zerg who truly deserves the top 5.
There should be more tournaments full stop I guess, the seasonal finals between high GSL and WCS players feels a glaring gap in the schedule, we used to have them even when we had more big tournaments.
I don’t see how region lockout is fine for bad players but a disgrace when we have good ones.
The opposite would be stupid, I’m down with it as it seems to be working in making the foreign scene produce better players.
If I’m a promising 16/17 year old player in Europe or the States 5 years ago I look at who I have to beat to pay the bills and going to school looks a way more attractive option.
Unfortunately now we have a pretty decent structure there, it’s Korea that needs much more love that it’s not getting, prize money is too low relative to the level of competition in GSL and ST, and we don’t have the regular IEM circuit, just Katowice.
I’d definitely like to see the best of the best face off more regularly as a viewer for sure, more international tournaments would be part of that, I do worry about the longer term Korean scene as the current crop can’t stick around forever and there doesn’t seem to be the next generation coming through.
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On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice.
This completely misses the mark. DRG actually started to decline as broodlord infestor reached its peak, and he was NEVER famous or extremely skilled with that. Instead, his best moments happened in the muta-ling-bling era of ZvT and such time.
Serral is great and has a higher peak but DRG also was the best player in the world and won tournaments over a much longer span. To me that's more impressive.
Let's not forget that the most meaningful of Serral's wins are GSL vs the World, Blizzcon, and HSC. Just three tournaments.
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On June 11 2019 20:16 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice. This completely misses the mark. DRG actually started to decline as broodlord infestor reached its peak, and he was NEVER famous or extremely skilled with that. Instead, his best moments happened in the muta-ling-bling era of ZvT and such time. Serral is great and has a higher peak but DRG also was the best player in the world and won tournaments over a much longer span. To me that's more impressive. Let's not forget that the most meaningful of Serral's wins are GSL vs the World, Blizzcon, and HSC. Just three tournaments.
Even totally ignoring WCS Serral does not have less Premier victories than DRG.
When was DRG considered the best in the world? He was among the best for like two years, but he never really stood out the way Serral did. And you are not considering Serral's insane streak...
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On June 11 2019 20:44 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 20:16 Pandain wrote:On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice. This completely misses the mark. DRG actually started to decline as broodlord infestor reached its peak, and he was NEVER famous or extremely skilled with that. Instead, his best moments happened in the muta-ling-bling era of ZvT and such time. Serral is great and has a higher peak but DRG also was the best player in the world and won tournaments over a much longer span. To me that's more impressive. Let's not forget that the most meaningful of Serral's wins are GSL vs the World, Blizzcon, and HSC. Just three tournaments. Even totally ignoring WCS Serral does not have less Premier victories than DRG. When was DRG considered the best in the world? He was among the best for like two years, but he never really stood out the way Serral did. And you are not considering Serral's insane streak...
100% the best when he won 2012 GSL, probably when he won the spring arena as well. If you think he was never the best you just never followed sc2 closely at this time.
Sure if you just follow liquipedia's classification of "premier tournaments" which is pretty vague. For instance DRG won a couple of "major tournaments" that I might consider a premier.
Including major and premier tournaments, DRG has nine tournament victories. Just talking about premier tournaments he has six second places.
Actually yeah I'm changing my mind, DRG takes this single-handidly.
of course serral has the most insane streak of all time, but DRG takes it because of longetivity and depth.
Again let's not forget that Serral's significant tournaments are only three wins, one of which is HSC (I'm not hating on HSC)
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On June 11 2019 21:02 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 20:44 Xain0n wrote:On June 11 2019 20:16 Pandain wrote:On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice. This completely misses the mark. DRG actually started to decline as broodlord infestor reached its peak, and he was NEVER famous or extremely skilled with that. Instead, his best moments happened in the muta-ling-bling era of ZvT and such time. Serral is great and has a higher peak but DRG also was the best player in the world and won tournaments over a much longer span. To me that's more impressive. Let's not forget that the most meaningful of Serral's wins are GSL vs the World, Blizzcon, and HSC. Just three tournaments. Even totally ignoring WCS Serral does not have less Premier victories than DRG. When was DRG considered the best in the world? He was among the best for like two years, but he never really stood out the way Serral did. And you are not considering Serral's insane streak... 100% the best when he won 2012 GSL, probably when he won the spring arena as well. If you think he was never the best you just never followed sc2 closely at this time. Sure if you just follow liquipedia's classification of "premier tournaments" which is pretty vague. For instance DRG won a couple of "major tournaments" that I might consider a premier. Including major and premier tournaments, DRG has nine tournament victories. Just talking about premier tournaments he has six second places. Actually yeah I'm changing my mind, DRG takes this single-handidly. of course serral has the most insane streak of all time, but DRG takes it because of longetivity and depth. Again let's not forget that Serral's significant tournaments are only three wins, one of which is HSC (I'm not hating on HSC)
You know I cannot agree with this! WCS can't be considered insignificant, Serral's unprecedent domination on the circuit has a considerable weight.
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On June 11 2019 21:02 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 20:44 Xain0n wrote:On June 11 2019 20:16 Pandain wrote:On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice. This completely misses the mark. DRG actually started to decline as broodlord infestor reached its peak, and he was NEVER famous or extremely skilled with that. Instead, his best moments happened in the muta-ling-bling era of ZvT and such time. Serral is great and has a higher peak but DRG also was the best player in the world and won tournaments over a much longer span. To me that's more impressive. Let's not forget that the most meaningful of Serral's wins are GSL vs the World, Blizzcon, and HSC. Just three tournaments. Even totally ignoring WCS Serral does not have less Premier victories than DRG. When was DRG considered the best in the world? He was among the best for like two years, but he never really stood out the way Serral did. And you are not considering Serral's insane streak... Sure if you just follow liquipedia's classification of "premier tournaments" which is pretty vague. For instance DRG won a couple of "major tournaments" that I might consider a premier.
That is a very unique way of seeing things. You consider some major tournaments as premier and actual premier tournaments (namely WCS) not at all. Interesting
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On June 11 2019 22:39 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 21:02 Pandain wrote:On June 11 2019 20:44 Xain0n wrote:On June 11 2019 20:16 Pandain wrote:On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice. This completely misses the mark. DRG actually started to decline as broodlord infestor reached its peak, and he was NEVER famous or extremely skilled with that. Instead, his best moments happened in the muta-ling-bling era of ZvT and such time. Serral is great and has a higher peak but DRG also was the best player in the world and won tournaments over a much longer span. To me that's more impressive. Let's not forget that the most meaningful of Serral's wins are GSL vs the World, Blizzcon, and HSC. Just three tournaments. Even totally ignoring WCS Serral does not have less Premier victories than DRG. When was DRG considered the best in the world? He was among the best for like two years, but he never really stood out the way Serral did. And you are not considering Serral's insane streak... Sure if you just follow liquipedia's classification of "premier tournaments" which is pretty vague. For instance DRG won a couple of "major tournaments" that I might consider a premier. That is a very unique way of seeing things. You consider some major tournaments as premier and actual premier tournaments (namely WCS) not at all. Interesting
If we're viewing tournaments in terms of how impressive they were to win, why should a WCS victory be more or even as worthy as DRG's 2012 MLG Spring Arena victory?
For reference:  2012 MLG Pro Circuit/Spring/Arena 1. Here he played top top players of the world (not just the foreigner scene) and came out on top in an offline tournament.
You realize the classification of "premier" and "major" tournaments is extremely arbitrary. Instead we should look at how difficult a tournament was. I would say each of DRG's major tournament victories were much more impressive than any of Serral's WCS victories, for instance.
Personally I don't think in terms of "Major" or "premier". And no one should. We should judge each tournament individually.
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On June 11 2019 22:48 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2019 22:39 Harris1st wrote:On June 11 2019 21:02 Pandain wrote:On June 11 2019 20:44 Xain0n wrote:On June 11 2019 20:16 Pandain wrote:On June 11 2019 10:33 Morbidius wrote:
Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice. This completely misses the mark. DRG actually started to decline as broodlord infestor reached its peak, and he was NEVER famous or extremely skilled with that. Instead, his best moments happened in the muta-ling-bling era of ZvT and such time. Serral is great and has a higher peak but DRG also was the best player in the world and won tournaments over a much longer span. To me that's more impressive. Let's not forget that the most meaningful of Serral's wins are GSL vs the World, Blizzcon, and HSC. Just three tournaments. Even totally ignoring WCS Serral does not have less Premier victories than DRG. When was DRG considered the best in the world? He was among the best for like two years, but he never really stood out the way Serral did. And you are not considering Serral's insane streak... Sure if you just follow liquipedia's classification of "premier tournaments" which is pretty vague. For instance DRG won a couple of "major tournaments" that I might consider a premier. That is a very unique way of seeing things. You consider some major tournaments as premier and actual premier tournaments (namely WCS) not at all. Interesting If we're viewing tournaments in terms of how impressive they were to win, why should a WCS victory be more or even as worthy as DRG's 2012 MLG Spring Arena victory? For reference: 2012 MLG Pro Circuit/Spring/Arena 1. Here he played top top players of the world (not just the foreigner scene) and came out on top in an offline tournament. You realize the classification of "premier" and "major" tournaments is extremely arbitrary. Instead we should look at how difficult a tournament was. I would say each of DRG's major tournament victories were much more impressive than any of Serral's WCS victories, for instance. Personally I don't think in terms of "Major" or "premier". And no one should. We should judge each tournament individually.
I agree with this, I rate Serrals WCS victories very low but even I voted Serral here. I loved DRG and it was his finals game vs MMA that actually brought me into the SC2 pro scene (first game I ever saw and it totally enthralled me) but if you look at what Serral has done it has to be Serral here.
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Canada8989 Posts
They see me pollin, they votin
Theses polls are closed
Match 11
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ ByuN
☐ Rain
Match 12
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Rogue
☐ Serral
Polls are open until June 12 around 8pm EST
Theses polls are closed
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Northern Ireland26340 Posts
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On June 12 2019 10:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
Sigh I misclicked Rogue
That could be fatal, mate. Rogue is THE patchzerg!
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On June 12 2019 10:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
Sigh I misclicked Rogue
In your heart of hearts, you know.
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Northern Ireland26340 Posts
On June 12 2019 10:29 Jealous wrote:In your heart of hearts, you know.
Rogue did super well in a meta that seemed to suit him and he’s fallen off a long way. Serral not so much (yet anyway)
Longevity seems to always be used as an argument against Serral, I think the long periods where x mainstay didn’t do anything impressive should count against them as well. Serral is actually consistent vs being around a long time and picking up the odd result. He’s either won every tournament he’s been in or lost to the eventual champion for like, 18 months or something silly now. He’s got the longest win streak against Korean players in all of SC2
Also recency bias but Rogue was up there with Ty and Dear for me of the most underwhelming performances this last GSL season
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Canada8989 Posts
On June 12 2019 10:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
Sigh I misclicked Rogue
Need to work on your micro
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Northern Ireland26340 Posts
On June 12 2019 10:43 Nakajin wrote:Need to work on your micro
Why? I play Protoss
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EPT
