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On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect...
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments...
I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player.
There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation.
But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments.
It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers.
Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them.
That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect...
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On June 09 2019 16:33 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 15:30 RatzBarcode wrote:On June 09 2019 11:20 Morbidius wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... Life's proleague record in particular is very weird. KT once seemed proud of their new superstar and were using him left and right, soon enough they were fielding him less and less, and in the end he had a mediocre Proleague career with them and asked to leave. I imagine they caught on with his matchfixing very fast, which is not surprising because he was probably a monster during practice. I remember i was looking thru his proleague matches trying to find the matchfixing but they were extremely bland and boring (Especially by Life's standards) so i kinda gave up. Do you mean he threw a whole bunch of Proleague games, or that his losses were boring and you couldn't tell? I think I remember he manually ("accidentally") detonated a large number of banes, I remember Wolf and Valdez being baffled by it and I think it was referenced as one of the games in the court filings No it wasnt. He blundered the banes vs Taeja in an individual tournament.
My bad. Thank you.
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On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect...
This post looks like a successful parroting attempt at a glance; I have, however, some objections.
Many of the most successful oversea players(excluding foreigners) didn't have great results in GSL(maybe a couple of good runs but not consistent top 10 materials): in addiction to Taeja, HerO, TY and sOs(yes, a good proleague record but only a hot6ix Cup in Korea) there are PartinG(he didn't win anything in Korea), Bomber, Polt, Leenock, Hyun, Puma in 2011, Marineking and Violet in 2012, Jaedong in 2013; they did need to consistently beat
tournament contenders to get their titles, some of the NASL-MLG-IEM-DH-IPL were stacked tournaments even for korean standards.
You didn't look well enough if you can only find Maru and NesTea, picking from your own list we have Rain who only won one HSC and Classic who only won IEM Shenzen outside of Korea; Stats didn't technically win anything out of GSL he really did not have many chanches to play in oversea tournaments and went very close to getting one international gold in these last two years.
The difference between individual leagues(korean or not) and teamleagues(even the holy Proleague) should be noticeable enough for you as well.
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Please don't mention Parting alongside the likes of Polt or HyuN
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Northern Ireland26764 Posts
Yeah I think it’s a bit silly to look at the list of premier wins at a glance, there’s way too many variables.
The first era was the limited Korean involvement, where one or two added stardust to MLGs, but that was super limited to most Koreans who weren’t an Mvp or whatever.
Then it opened up a lot to most Koreans with paid travel and more qualifiers, but the likes of MC who went the personal sponsorship route had an advantage. Tournaments did become increasingly stacked too in comparison to GSL, where most of the top folks there played in the big weekenders. Alive’s IPL victory I recall being a really ‘good victory’ if that makes sense.
Then Kespa guys came in, the first iteration of the WCS system came in and shifted both the player pool and relative value of tournaments again.
Now the ex Kespa guys are free to attend tournaments they qualify if they aren’t called Classic, but there are fewer tournaments overall
Becomes super difficult to compare people across these rough eras
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Canada8990 Posts
On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect...
k so we're just asshole now?
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On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now?
everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague?
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On June 09 2019 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now? everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague?
Not everything he said applies to oversea tournaments; and you can count Proleague, it just seems you are weighting it way too much.
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On June 09 2019 22:23 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now? everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague? Not everything he said applies to oversea tournaments; and you can count Proleague, it just seems you are weighting it way too much.
or you are weighting it way too little
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Canada8990 Posts
On June 09 2019 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now? everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague?
How about you just say that instead....
Anyhow the point was not that we shouldn't count Proleague, but that I think some put a lot more emphasis on it to compare them to players who didn't get to play in it. There's no reason to think that guys like Nestea, MMA, DRG or MC wouldn't have had good PL results, so it's kind of unfair to have proleague were most good players have about the same numbers to compare them to players who didn't play in it.
And obviously we shouldn't give foreing tournament the same recognition than korean tournaments, but at least Kespa players got to play in some of them.
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On June 09 2019 22:45 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now? everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague? How about you just say that instead.... Anyhow the point was not that we shouldn't count Proleague, but that I think some put a lot more emphasis on it to compare them to players who didn't get to play in it. There's no reason to think a Nestea, an MMA or a DRG wouldn't have had good PL results, so it's kind of unfair to have proleague were most good players have about the same numbers to compare them to players who didn't play in it. And obviously we shouldn't give foreing tournament the same recognition than korean tournaments, but at least Kespa players got to play in some of them.
You're correct but it's also unfair to the players who competed in Proleague to not count their PL records because they weren't allowed to participate in most foreign tournaments because of Proleague.
There's no reason to think a Maru, a Zest or a soO wouldn't have had good foreign tournament results in 2013-2015 if they'd participated as often in them as MC or TaeJa.
It seems only fair to me to count a very good Proleague record around the same level as the foreign tournament results of guys like TaeJa/MMA/MC etc because of that.
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On June 09 2019 22:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 22:45 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now? everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague? How about you just say that instead.... Anyhow the point was not that we shouldn't count Proleague, but that I think some put a lot more emphasis on it to compare them to players who didn't get to play in it. There's no reason to think a Nestea, an MMA or a DRG wouldn't have had good PL results, so it's kind of unfair to have proleague were most good players have about the same numbers to compare them to players who didn't play in it. And obviously we shouldn't give foreing tournament the same recognition than korean tournaments, but at least Kespa players got to play in some of them. You're correct but it's also unfair to the players who competed in Proleague to not count their PL records because they weren't allowed to participate in most foreign tournaments because of Proleague. There's no reason to think a Maru, a Zest or a soO wouldn't have had good foreign tournament results in 2013-2015 if they'd participated as often in them as MC or TaeJa. It seems only fair to me to count a very good Proleague record around the same level as the foreign tournament results of guys like TaeJa/MMA/MC etc because of that.
It's not like TaeJa won his titles against noob foreigners, you know? Maru, Zest or soO could have followed Life's success or win very few outside of Korea like Rain did; winning tournaments oversea was not as easy as you make it to be, since the competition was fierce(and mostly korean).
On the other hand, what makes you think TaeJa, MMA and the likes wouldn't have had success in ProLeague if they were in Korea? Why should we you ignore GSTL if you want to add in teamleagues? It's because KeSpa wasn't involved?
It doesn't seem fair to me that a good Proleague record weights as much as eleven, seven or even three foreign titles.
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Canada8990 Posts
On June 09 2019 22:53 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 22:45 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote:
I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments... Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now? everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague? How about you just say that instead.... Anyhow the point was not that we shouldn't count Proleague, but that I think some put a lot more emphasis on it to compare them to players who didn't get to play in it. There's no reason to think a Nestea, an MMA or a DRG wouldn't have had good PL results, so it's kind of unfair to have proleague were most good players have about the same numbers to compare them to players who didn't play in it. And obviously we shouldn't give foreing tournament the same recognition than korean tournaments, but at least Kespa players got to play in some of them. You're correct but it's also unfair to the players who competed in Proleague to not count their PL records because they weren't allowed to participate in most foreign tournaments because of Proleague. There's no reason to think a Maru, a Zest or a soO wouldn't have had good foreign tournament results in 2013-2015 if they'd participated as often in them as MC or TaeJa. It seems only fair to me to count a very good Proleague record around the same level as the foreign tournament results of guys like TaeJa/MMA/MC etc because of that.
Fair enough
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On June 09 2019 23:23 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 22:53 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 22:45 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 22:17 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 22:11 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 17:48 Charoisaur wrote:On June 09 2019 05:26 Nakajin wrote:On June 09 2019 03:15 Ej_ wrote:On June 09 2019 03:01 Acrofales wrote:On June 09 2019 02:50 Ej_ wrote:
[quote]
Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues. But if truckloads of money is the ranking criterion then GSL should be pretty lowly ranked. Definitely behind IEM, Dreamhack and WESG. I've just explained the actual criterium here is the incentive. There's no time constraints (or very minor, at most) that prevent players from performing in GSL in favor of WESG/IEM/Blizzcon. It was very much not the case with the KeSPA players who had to split their time between practicing for Proleague (what they were actually signed by their teams for) and preparing for individual leagues (which was actually not the main priority for multiple players). And yes, KeSPA players actually did bail out of multiple weekenders back in the day, because of Proleague obligations. Katowice and Blizzcon were the giga-money-enabled exceptions. I would get it if here was a big disparity between Proleague and individual league performance, but honestly the top 10 proleague player were pretty much the top 10-15 Kespa individual league player. There are some expection, for exemple Flash or Stats who did better in PL than in individual league, or guys like Bbyong or Roro who just had a lot opportunity to play in PL than in individual tournament due to their team situation. But overall the good individual player were the good proleague player, and the B teamer were quite unsuccessful in individual league. It's my problem with giving to much credit to proleague results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing proleague player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Dear and Life are the only Hots Korean champ I could find that have a proleague record under 60%, and Life barely played in it. That's why I feel a bit strange when I Proleague results for Kespa player are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in it for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in Proleague, sOs truly has the best numbers, Rain as ace, Maru 2016, INno getting 2 mvp trophy ect... I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on overseas tournaments over others things like online tournament or proleague. Or like all of WOL tournaments... I would get it if here was a big disparity between oversea and GSL performance, but honestly the top 10 oversea player were pretty much the top 10-15 GSL player. There are some expection, for exemple HerO or TY who did better in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments, or guys like TaeJa or Polt who just had a lot opportunity to play in oversea tournaments than in korean tournaments due to their team situation. But overall the good korean tournament player were the good overseas player, and the Code A player were quite unsuccessful in overseas tournaments. It's my problem with giving to much credit to overseas results, it's such a big pool of games that all the good/great players are gonna have great numbers, not necessarily because they specifically were amazing overseas player but because they were some of the best players overall, you didn't need to reliably beat others tournament contender to have great numbers. Maru and NesTea are the only multiple time Korean champ I could find that don't have a lot of overseas wins, and NesTea barely played in them. That's why I feel a bit strange when I overseas results for players are used as a way to put them in front of players that didn't get to play in them for whatever reason. Not saying that some top players were not better than other in oversea tournaments, TaeJa truly has the best numbers, sOs as world champion, MC 2012, herO winning 3 IEM ect... k so we're just asshole now? everything you said applies to oversea tournaments as well so why should we count them but not Proleague? How about you just say that instead.... Anyhow the point was not that we shouldn't count Proleague, but that I think some put a lot more emphasis on it to compare them to players who didn't get to play in it. There's no reason to think a Nestea, an MMA or a DRG wouldn't have had good PL results, so it's kind of unfair to have proleague were most good players have about the same numbers to compare them to players who didn't play in it. And obviously we shouldn't give foreing tournament the same recognition than korean tournaments, but at least Kespa players got to play in some of them. You're correct but it's also unfair to the players who competed in Proleague to not count their PL records because they weren't allowed to participate in most foreign tournaments because of Proleague. There's no reason to think a Maru, a Zest or a soO wouldn't have had good foreign tournament results in 2013-2015 if they'd participated as often in them as MC or TaeJa. It seems only fair to me to count a very good Proleague record around the same level as the foreign tournament results of guys like TaeJa/MMA/MC etc because of that. It's not like TaeJa won his titles against noob foreigners, you know? Maru, Zest or soO could have followed Life's success or win very few outside of Korea like Rain did; winning tournaments oversea was not as easy as you make it to be, since the competition was fierce(and mostly korean). On the other hand, what makes you think TaeJa, MMA and the likes wouldn't have had success in ProLeague if they were in Korea? Why should we you ignore GSTL if you want to add in teamleagues? It's because KeSpa wasn't involved? It doesn't seem fair to me that a good Proleague record weights as much as eleven, seven or even three foreign titles.
I neither said that TaeJa, MMA and the likes wouldn't have had success in Proleague nor did I say that GSTL should be ignored. And Rain is a really bad example as he only concentrated on foreign tournaments for a single year (and even won one tournament in that time).
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On June 09 2019 15:24 RatzBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2019 10:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On June 09 2019 10:16 RatzBarcode wrote:
Feel like it's bracket luck that Polt is top 16, and I liked the dude. Rain certainly was superior, Gumiho and Bomber less so. maybe I'm underrating polts creativity. wcs America was weak but he did win more than bomber... I dunno why you even mention GuMiho when discussing the top 16. To me it's debatable if he should even be top 32. If you ignore his cool playstyle and look at his results he's basically jjakji. Longevity. Gumiho has literally made/played in the most GSLs. I realize that's partly a function of right place right time (aka not an achievement that Stats could ever have) and he doesn't have title sucess, but that means he's been top 30 for the game's lifespan, and didn't retreat away from Korea. Everyone else on the list is an all-time great except for Keen. And I guess Leenock, who is sort of a Zerg Gumiho. liquipedia.netJjakji has 7 GSL, and yes, one garbage win. Gumiho has 21 GSL, and a modern day GSL title. You insult Gumiho
Sure consistency is great to supplement results, but in Gumiho's case the results aren't there. Playing in a bunch of Code S is nice, but most players who have been playing since close to the beginning have similar records (whether you're a Maru or a Losira is a matter of titles not Code S participations).
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Canada8990 Posts
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Canada8990 Posts
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Canada8990 Posts
New votes for place 24 to 20
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Poll: Who is the greatest players?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Gumiho
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Byun, Rogue, Rain.
Very unsure about Serral vs DRG.
DRG rose just as Nestea fell, and DRG fell just as Life rose. I also think he got some extra career longetivity out of Broodlord/infestor meta. Serral plays in a more skilled era, yet most of the time against weaker opponents. Plenty of Zergs had 2012 as a good year, the best of their careers. In 2018 Serral was the only guy taking the golds after Rogue won Katowice.
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EPT
