On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
sOs is a three-time World Champion. he won 2 WC titles from Blizzcon and 1 WC title from IEM. In the winner takes it all tournament. And it was actually named World Championship.
To add to this he has very nice collection of top4 places
On June 07 2019 15:34 Morbidius wrote: Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: MC is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
MC is a protoss Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Taeja dumpstered him, Life dumpstered him, even Sacsri dumpstered him.His GSL wins came at a time when most of his workload was killing Terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance (Hi Jinro! And Terran Rain).
MC was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
MC won 2 Code S titles and has a 2nd place from 2012 Code S. So, uhm, what? Also he won IEM 2011, he got some nice 2nd places.
So, no? He was between, if not the, best protosses of the world back then.
Edit> Damn, forgot I already posted, sorry for double posting.
On June 07 2019 15:34 Morbidius wrote: Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: MC is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
MC is a protoss Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Taeja dumpstered him, Life dumpstered him, even Sacsri dumpstered him.His GSL wins came at a time when most of his workload was killing Terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance (Hi Jinro! And Terran Rain).
MC was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: Taeja is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
Taeja is a terran Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Polt dumpstered him, Flash dumpstered him, even HerO dumpstered him.His GSL semifinals came at a time when most of his workload was killing Zergs who only got far due to ZvP imbalance (Hi Roro! And Zerg Leenock).
Taeja was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
On June 07 2019 15:34 Morbidius wrote: Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: MC is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
MC is a protoss Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Taeja dumpstered him, Life dumpstered him, even Sacsri dumpstered him.His GSL wins came at a time when most of his workload was killing Terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance (Hi Jinro! And Terran Rain).
MC was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: Taeja is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
Taeja is a terran Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Polt dumpstered him, Flash dumpstered him, even HerO dumpstered him.His GSL semifinals came at a time when most of his workload was killing Zergs who only got far due to ZvP imbalance (Hi Roro! And Zerg Leenock).
Taeja was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
I can see this more than MC, MC did win on korean soil taking GSLs. Taeja never did, MC should be ranked above Taeja.
Personally I feel sOs is overrated as well, its not for lack of trying that he has never won a GSL. He's been active for a long time and has always competed in GSL, Taeja at least has the excuse that he left and spent a lot of years never even trying. Sure two blizzcon victories and IEM WC is impressive, especially considering all his silver medals, even two in GSL but its still behind MVP, Life, Zest and soO. Perhaps he is comparable to Stats and Classic but it should be somewhere there he lands
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
On June 07 2019 15:34 Morbidius wrote: Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: MC is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
MC is a protoss Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Taeja dumpstered him, Life dumpstered him, even Sacsri dumpstered him.His GSL wins came at a time when most of his workload was killing Terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance (Hi Jinro! And Terran Rain).
MC was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: Taeja is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
Taeja is a terran Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Polt dumpstered him, Flash dumpstered him, even HerO dumpstered him.His GSL semifinals came at a time when most of his workload was killing Zergs who only got far due to ZvP imbalance (Hi Roro! And Zerg Leenock).
Taeja was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
I can see this more than MC, MC did win on korean soil taking GSLs. Taeja never did, MC should be ranked above Taeja.
Personally I feel sOs is overrated as well, its not for lack of trying that he has never won a GSL. He's been active for a long time and has always competed in GSL, Taeja at least has the excuse that he left and spent a lot of years never even trying. Sure two blizzcon victories and IEM WC is impressive, especially considering all his silver medals, even two in GSL but its still behind MVP, Life, Zest and soO. Perhaps he is comparable to Stats and Classic but it should be somewhere there he lands
Taeja is only being discussed because of TL and fanboy bias. He is barely top 20. MC is clearly above him, but still wouldnt put him anywhere near top 10. Maybe top15.
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
I must say I am not surprised you guys get on well together.
However, you shouldn't be speaking of results, your list is not built on actual results but on your arbitrary evaluation of results, Code S centric yet somehow heavily skewed against WoL players and in favor of those who played in KeSpa's Proleague; it is your personal list so that's fine, but it's far from being objective.
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
However, you shouldn't be speaking of results, your list is not built on actual results but on your arbitrary evaluation of results
On June 07 2019 15:34 Morbidius wrote: Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: MC is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
MC is a protoss Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Taeja dumpstered him, Life dumpstered him, even Sacsri dumpstered him.His GSL wins came at a time when most of his workload was killing Terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance (Hi Jinro! And Terran Rain).
MC was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
I mean you're wrong, but I'm more interested in what "terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance" even means and why you think Jinro and Rain fall into that category.
I meant TvZ, GSL was filled with mediocre Terrans who managed to beat the best Zergs due to mapmaking masterpieces such as Steppes of War and Jungle Basin.
On June 07 2019 15:34 Morbidius wrote: Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: MC is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
MC is a protoss Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Taeja dumpstered him, Life dumpstered him, even Sacsri dumpstered him.His GSL wins came at a time when most of his workload was killing Terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance (Hi Jinro! And Terran Rain).
MC was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
I mean you're wrong, but I'm more interested in what "terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance" even means and why you think Jinro and Rain fall into that category.
I meant TvZ, GSL was filled with mediocre Terrans who managed to beat the best Zergs due to mapmaking masterpieces such as Steppes of War and Jungle Basin.
IIRC he did beat July who had beaten NaDa before. So who of these was the mediocre bad player back then, NaDa or July?
On June 07 2019 15:34 Morbidius wrote: Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: MC is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
MC is a protoss Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Taeja dumpstered him, Life dumpstered him, even Sacsri dumpstered him.His GSL wins came at a time when most of his workload was killing Terrans who only got far due to PvZ imbalance (Hi Jinro! And Terran Rain).
MC was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
Very controversial opinion coming, i might use some strong words to get to the point: Taeja is one of the most overrated Players in SC2 history.
Taeja is a terran Puma who went around the world poaching foreign titles due to his very rich sponsors.it usually was a showmatch between him and the best foreigner, sometimes against another Korean. But what happens when you have to play top tier players? Polt dumpstered him, Flash dumpstered him, even HerO dumpstered him.His GSL semifinals came at a time when most of his workload was killing Zergs who only got far due to ZvP imbalance (Hi Roro! And Zerg Leenock).
Taeja was never the greatest at handing players at their best, but god knows he knew how to wipe out weaker opposition.
I can see this more than MC, MC did win on korean soil taking GSLs. Taeja never did, MC should be ranked above Taeja.
Personally I feel sOs is overrated as well, its not for lack of trying that he has never won a GSL. He's been active for a long time and has always competed in GSL, Taeja at least has the excuse that he left and spent a lot of years never even trying. Sure two blizzcon victories and IEM WC is impressive, especially considering all his silver medals, even two in GSL but its still behind MVP, Life, Zest and soO. Perhaps he is comparable to Stats and Classic but it should be somewhere there he lands
Taeja is only being discussed because of TL and fanboy bias. He is barely top 20. MC is clearly above him, but still wouldnt put him anywhere near top 10. Maybe top15.
I wouldn’t personally, feel peak Taeja properly destroyed fields in a way MC didn’t outside of a small window and was relevant at the top end of things for longer.
It’s patronising in the extreme to just dismiss people’s opinions as due to team bias, or fanboyism.
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
It pretty much is a "who's the best HOTS/Kespa era player" list. No one from WOL except Mvp and almost no one from LoTV except Stats and kinda Classic (who are at the bottom)
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
It pretty much is a "who's the best HOTS/Kespa era player" list. No one from WOL except Mvp and almost no one from LoTV except Stats and kinda Classic (who are at the bottom)
WoL players suffer from having no Proleague results and most of them fell off after the Kespa switch which lead to them having only 2-3 years to accumulate results compared to 5+ years of most of the players on this list.
On June 08 2019 03:03 Waxangel wrote: Is this tournament running so slowly it's gonna be missing an entire year of results by the end ;o
Starcraft is dead anyway so I'm not in a hurry
Seriously tho, we should be done like the first week of august if anything goes well, so just in time for Serral to win GSLvsTW and have the final mostly about him. I would do it faster, but I need a place to shit post.
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
It pretty much is a "who's the best HOTS/Kespa era player" list. No one from WOL except Mvp and almost no one from LoTV except Stats and kinda Classic (who are at the bottom)
Well what do you expect? Objectively, WoL was a mess and the only player who stood out that much he is to be considered comparable with other top pros (who were much longer at the top and had proleague and more tournaments to show their consistent skill) is Mvp. Also who do you expect from LoTV? Maru kinda peaked in this expansion no? And most players are the same as they were in Hots...
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
It pretty much is a "who's the best HOTS/Kespa era player" list. No one from WOL except Mvp and almost no one from LoTV except Stats and kinda Classic (who are at the bottom)
Well what do you expect? Objectively, WoL was a mess and the only player who stood out that much he is to be considered comparable with other top pros (who were much longer at the top and had proleague and more tournaments to show their consistent skill) is Mvp. Also who do you expect from LoTV? Maru kinda peaked in this expansion no? And most players are the same as they were in Hots...
Different vision I guess, for me you need to look for greatness in all era it would be like having a NFL GOAT list that has Jerry Rice then a bunch of 2000 QB who played 20 years career. Also I don't really get why WoL is more of a "mess" than HOTS, at least if you meant in term of tournament winners, there's not that many great WoL player compare to great HOTS players. And in LoTV no it's not the same players at all, sOs, Zest, Classic, Rain (obviously) had good but not great LoTV (altought obviously Classic is changing that) while others like Rogue, TY, Dark or even BuyN did much better and aren't even considered for top 10.
Also on a side note, ProLeague results are overrated, someone like Zest is considered one of the best proleague player ever, and has a 62% winrate and a negative winrate as ace. Is it good, yes obviously but it's not transcendental, if you are in the top 10-15 player in the league you will get something around 60% winrate, it's just the way it is for all the time he got match with an Innovation a herO or a sOs he had weeks against Blaze, Reality, Panic.... A 60% is a normal win rate for a tournament contender basically.
Of course it has to be taken into consideration, but I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments...
On June 06 2019 13:37 Amarillo Caballero wrote: sOs being a two time World champion and having the most career wins in Proleague should get more support for greatest of all time imo. He hasn't won a GSL, but the achievements he does have are more impressive imo.
I think he's probably in top 15 but winning 2 Blizzcon is not as impressive as winning 6 Starleagues as Maru did.
sOs is easily top 3
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Life 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. herO
Best list I saw here. I would just slightly adjust it
1. Maru/Inno 2. Maru/Inno 3. sOs 4. Life 5. Zest 6. Mvp 7. soO 8. Stats 9. Classic 10. Rain
Yeah some of the players are really close in terms of results so your list is fine too. I value Zest over Life due to his Proleague results and Rain would be #11 in my list
It pretty much is a "who's the best HOTS/Kespa era player" list. No one from WOL except Mvp and almost no one from LoTV except Stats and kinda Classic (who are at the bottom)
Well what do you expect? Objectively, WoL was a mess and the only player who stood out that much he is to be considered comparable with other top pros (who were much longer at the top and had proleague and more tournaments to show their consistent skill) is Mvp. Also who do you expect from LoTV? Maru kinda peaked in this expansion no? And most players are the same as they were in Hots...
Different vision I guess, for me you need to look for greatness in all era it would be like having a NFL GOAT list that has Jerry Rice then a bunch of 2000 QB who played 20 years career. Also I don't really get why WoL is more of a "mess" than HOTS, at least if you meant in term of tournament winners, there's not that many great WoL player compare to great HOTS players. And in LoTV no it's not the same players at all, sOs, Zest, Classic, Rain (obviously) had good but not great LoTV (altought obviously Classic is changing that) while others like Rogue, TY, Dark or even BuyN did much better and aren't even considered for top 10.
Also on a side note, ProLeague results are overrated, someone like Zest is considered one of the best proleague player ever, and has a 62% winrate and a negative winrate as ace. Is it good, yes obviously but it's not transcendental, if you are in the top 10-15 player in the league you will get something around 60% winrate, it's just the way it is for all the time he got match with an Innovation a herO or a sOs he had weeks against Blaze, Reality, Panic.... A 60% is a normal win rate for a tournament contender basically.
Of course it has to be taken into consideration, but I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments...
It was a good competition with obvious prestige from BW, but it entered a scene and a game that has largely been individually focused in terms of prize money and eyes.
SC2 being more international in focus kind of necessitated that, the logistics of team competitions with international orgs and players all over the place etc.
Its importance seems to wax and wane entirely based upon whether it supports one’s argument or not.
Wings had its flaws, equally players had to figure out how to play an entirely new game and shape what good play is from scratch. One of the joys of a new, good strategy game coming to market is you have a shot to discover some new things. I feel that Wings players doing that is neglected a bit. It’s why Boxer is still a great even if Flash would crush him.
On June 09 2019 00:48 Nakajin wrote: I don't get why there is such a big emphasis on proleague over others things like online tournament or oversea tournaments. Or like all of WOL tournaments...
Because KeSPA teams paid trucks of money to their players specifically to play PL and represent the team. Players would be more intencivized to play Proleague over individual leagues.
EPT
