EPT[GSL 2018] Season 1 - Semi Finals Day 2 - Page 28
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Weavel
Finland9221 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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AaBbCc
New Zealand110 Posts
  Keep in mind no one else has shown Raven use to that level, it sucks when one player, often a Terran, single-handedly causes a nerf by virtue of getting sickeningly good with a style or strat and usually through control and execution just becomes straight-up better than everyone else making it look imba in the process. The anti-Byun reaper nerf definitely comes to mind. I reckon give AAM single target damage, with only the spell's AA effect having splash. Makes dealing with those ling/bling attacks Dark was trying to use a lot harder. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On March 25 2018 18:02 AaBbCc wrote: Agreed, Raven needs toning down but only After Maru takes down Stats ofc Keep in mind no one else has shown Raven use to that level, it sucks when one player, often a Terran, single-handedly causes a nerf by virtue of getting sickeningly good with a style or strat and usually through control and execution just becomes straight-up better than everyone else making it look imba in the process. The anti-Byun reaper nerf definitely comes to mind. I reckon give AAM single target damage, with only the spell's AA effect having splash. Makes dealing with those ling/bling attacks Dark was trying to use a lot harder. this is the reason why we can never have a Flash in SC2. Whenever a player becomes disgustingly good with a style it gets nerfed. In this case I agree with a Raven nerf though just because I think it's badly designed. Mass spellcaster usage is just not very fun to watch. | ||
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Vertical
Indonesia4317 Posts
On March 25 2018 18:54 Charoisaur wrote: this is the reason why we can never have a Flash in SC2. Whenever a player becomes disgustingly good with a style it gets nerfed. In this case I agree with a Raven nerf though just because I think it's badly designed. Mass spellcaster usage is just not very fun to watch. aahhh the good old time of Byun's reapers | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On March 25 2018 18:54 Charoisaur wrote: this is the reason why we can never have a Flash in SC2. Whenever a player becomes disgustingly good with a style it gets nerfed. In this case I agree with a Raven nerf though just because I think it's badly designed. Mass spellcaster usage is just not very fun to watch. That's actually a really interesting point, does one player having extreme success with something make that something OP if no one else can pull it off? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 25 2018 22:44 IcemanAsi wrote: That's actually a really interesting point, does one player having extreme success with something make that something OP if no one else can pull it off? It doesn't make it op, it could be op though. But noone would be able to prove it one way or another in the first place. Broodlord infestor anyone could see it is op, literally every zerg could do it. Raven/Ghost? We still need more games from multiple terrans to really have a good idea, it certainly looks quite strong when maru does it. I wonder if in the interview rogue did he was just joking (said it is fun to play vs lategame terran) or if he actually found success vs it, which would be vs maru ofc. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On March 25 2018 23:20 The_Red_Viper wrote: It doesn't make it op, it could be op though. But noone would be able to prove it one way or another in the first place. Broodlord infestor anyone could see it is op, literally every zerg could do it. Raven/Ghost? We still need more games from multiple terrans to really have a good idea, it certainly looks quite strong when maru does it. I wonder if in the interview rogue did he was just joking (said it is fun to play vs lategame terran) or if he actually found success vs it, which would be vs maru ofc. One fact you need to consider is that when Rogue had that interview Dark was beating Maru in the late game. Maru pulled it back with two rushes so he won the match but the long games Dark won. Thats what makes this semifinal with Maru vs Dark even cooler for me, because Maru obviously had holes in his play a week ago but as Maru says in his winner interview after the semifinals he thanks Rogue for helping him plug the holes. Maybe Rogue did have success against Maru late game a week ago, just like Dark had but does he still though? Its so incredible cool to see the meta and the balance twist and turn inbefore your eyes. Terran was having a lot of problems and only Maru qualified for RO8 GSL and he went on to show a new style that later was defeated by Dark and (based on the interview manageable for Rogue) and now in the semifinals Maru has developed his late game style even further and breaks the wall that Dark put before him earlier. How balanced is it, impossible to say because we are literally in the middle of the meta shifting like hell. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
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Fran_
United States1024 Posts
On March 26 2018 02:21 mierin wrote: Honestly while Ravens are annoying I think ghosts are the real problem. Having a pack of invisible, tanky, lightning fast sniping machines in combination with the ravens is what makes it frustrating to watch for me. Ghosts are very easily counter-able by fungal or banelings and are very micro intensive. | ||
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Boggyb
2855 Posts
On March 26 2018 02:21 mierin wrote: Honestly while Ravens are annoying I think ghosts are the real problem. Having a pack of invisible, tanky, lightning fast sniping machines in combination with the ravens is what makes it frustrating to watch for me. Have redundant detection and the invisibility isn't a problem. If the Terran player is spending 3-5 snipes to take out your overseers, he isn't sniping more valuable units. They are only tanky because Maru is investing 3/3 into them. Ghosts are only faster than most Zerg units off of creep. If they're not on a covert mission on creep, they are going to be supported by army units which means their speed isn't particularly relevant. You watch a player like Maru kill a bunch of expensive Zerg units with ghosts and get disgusted but don't take into account that that is somewhat counterbalanced by the expense when he inevitably loses them. | ||
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Elentos
55561 Posts
On March 26 2018 02:46 Fran_ wrote: Ghosts are very easily counter-able by fungal or banelings and are very micro intensive. With burrowed fungal removed and Steady Targeting refunding energy, it's really not that "easy" anymore. But really it's the raven that enables this play. AAM on broods, corruptors or even just ling/bane/hydra just takes so much of a burden off the ghosts, plus interference matrix being able to disable spellcasters. Before 4.0 late game was Zerg favored unless the Terran played some perfect ghost/liberator (which didn't really happen much because most Terrans tried to end it before that point because that's very hard to play), and pretty much only Maru and TY nail that play style. With the raven it's now easier to play, but if you removed it I believe those 2 would still be fine. Against Zerg. Super late game TvP would probably be borderline unplayable again. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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FritzPfotl_
Austria30 Posts
On March 26 2018 00:29 Shuffleblade wrote: One fact you need to consider is that when Rogue had that interview Dark was beating Maru in the late game. Maru pulled it back with two rushes so he won the match but the long games Dark won. Thats what makes this semifinal with Maru vs Dark even cooler for me, because Maru obviously had holes in his play a week ago but as Maru says in his winner interview after the semifinals he thanks Rogue for helping him plug the holes. Maybe Rogue did have success against Maru late game a week ago, just like Dark had but does he still though? Its so incredible cool to see the meta and the balance twist and turn inbefore your eyes. Terran was having a lot of problems and only Maru qualified for RO8 GSL and he went on to show a new style that later was defeated by Dark and (based on the interview manageable for Rogue) and now in the semifinals Maru has developed his late game style even further and breaks the wall that Dark put before him earlier. How balanced is it, impossible to say because we are literally in the middle of the meta shifting like hell. Good points. I really like to see those slow shifts in the meta game when the pros are figuring out the new strategies. I am sure the top Zergs will be able to adapt to Maru's late game style, but only time will tell. I think that Maru had a clear plan for the particular map in game 6, because he used mech, speed banshees, hidden expansion only on this map. It is always nice to see a player having a well thought out strategy and being able to execute it perfectly. I guess that's why it looked OP for some spectators but as I said, I am looking forward to see how Zergs will adapt. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On March 25 2018 18:54 Charoisaur wrote: this is the reason why we can never have a Flash in SC2. Whenever a player becomes disgustingly good with a style it gets nerfed. In this case I agree with a Raven nerf though just because I think it's badly designed. Mass spellcaster usage is just not very fun to watch. We had Flash for a while and I don't think he was that successful  (well, he was good, but not godlike)_ | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On March 26 2018 04:30 FritzPfotl_ wrote: Good points. I really like to see those slow shifts in the meta game when the pros are figuring out the new strategies. I am sure the top Zergs will be able to adapt to Maru's late game style, but only time will tell. I think that Maru had a clear plan for the particular map in game 6, because he used mech, speed banshees, hidden expansion only on this map. It is always nice to see a player having a well thought out strategy and being able to execute it perfectly. I guess that's why it looked OP for some spectators but as I said, I am looking forward to see how Zergs will adapt. I'ma afraid that the onlyu solution in current state of the game, that pro Zergs can figure out is just some kind of allin- "kill them before they get there"- and i don't think it's good for the game unfortunaly. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On March 26 2018 03:56 hiroshOne wrote: Thats why they need nerf Ravens and nerf Protoss in some ways. I think they should start with toning down chronoboost as pretty much that's the problem especially in TvP with 2/2 Protoss gateway timings. This semis and final will shiw the problem. How Terran in lategame with turtling Maru style is stomping Zerg, and in the finals Stats will stomp Maru in the same way. The game is in a good state, but it's not balanced yet. I think terrans lack of answers to Collossus play is the much bigger problem than upgrades. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4958 Posts
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
On March 26 2018 07:18 Charoisaur wrote: I think terrans lack of answers to Collossus play is the much bigger problem than upgrades. It's ok, Maru hard-counters them with marauders. | ||
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SJ158
Brazil24 Posts
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