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On September 16 2017 05:59 Myrddrael wrote:
Betting against INnoVation in a best of 7 that he's had time to prepare for EleGiggle
User was warned for this post
Warned for that lmao. Someone needs to look at the definition of meme.
In all seriousness; if this was a best of 3 I could MAYBE see sOs taking it. A best of 5? Possibly; if sOs pulls out some tricky Protoss BS and INnoVation isn't having a good day. A best of 7? Na
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some 
Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results.
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On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results.
At least not if we include all the foreign tournaments i guess. Though people argue that Mvp is the clear GOAT. It's a myth at this point and legend is simply stronger than reality 
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On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results.
If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. Only with extreme bias you can do that like "He isn't the goat because he has a healthy body" or "His results are worthless because he only wins in favorable meta".
All bullshit; in terms of results he will be undoubtely the most accomplished player.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore.
People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements.
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On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements.
That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard.
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On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard.
I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues. That way, both quantity and quality are covered.
Inno will have the most Starleagues if he beats sOs, he needs a few more after that to beat Life.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. Instead, it should be once he has the most trophies and most Starleagues.
Not quite what I meant. To get the community to agree that someone is the incontestable GOAT you probably need to double the achievements of the second. Or else you'll get a bunch of people wrongly quibbling about the relative value of tournaments, and the competitiveness of the era, and periods of dominance and other bullshit.
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On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues.
most Starleagues yes. But most trophies is flawed because a HSC surely isn't worth as much as a Blizzcon win.
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On September 16 2017 06:36 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. Instead, it should be once he has the most trophies and most Starleagues. Not quite what I meant. To get the community to agree that someone is the incontestable GOAT you probably need to double the achievements of the second.
Flash is considered the BW goat despite not having double the achievements of the 2nd.
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On September 16 2017 06:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues. most Starleagues yes. But most trophies is flawed because a HSC surely isn't worth as much as a Blizzcon win.
Ofc it is flawed, but the point is that people are flawed too and will stick to their guns until it is overwhelmingly obvious that one player is the GOAT.
To be the GOAT, you have to be better than everyone else. To get everyone to recognize you as GOAT though, you need to be WAY better than everyone else. Ziggurat thinks way better means 2x, I would say that most Starleagues + most trophies is enough because what do people argue against in that case?
It's a lowest common denominator sort of thing, and if one person has won the biggest tournaments and the most, that's pretty hard to argue with.
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On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues.
I actually heavily disagree with this haha. In my eyes the GOAT could be someone who never won a single starleague but placed 2nd enough times (as an example). Every result counts, every ro16, every ro8, every ro4, etc. Also teamleagues ofc.
Though i guess usually the guy with most starleagues would have the overal results in the first place, so this might be a moot point.
Also "most trophies", what about Taeja?
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On September 16 2017 06:40 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues. I actually heavily disagree with this haha. In my eyes the GOAT could be someone who never won a single starleague but placed 2nd enough times (as an example). Every result counts, every ro16, every ro8, every ro4, etc. Also teamleagues ofc. Though i guess usually the guy with most starleagues would have the overal results in the first place, so this might be a moot point. Also "most trophies", what about Taeja?
Like I mentioned in my other post, it's a lowest-common-denominator sort of thing. Most people don't read or remember all the second-place or semifinalist finishes. What is the relative value of them in various tournaments anyhow?
Point being, trophies are very intuitive. This guy beat all the other guys in this prestigious tournament, and he did it the most times. Simple.
Taeja isn't in the running for GOAT though, is he? Because Korean Starleagues. The contenders are Mvp, Inno, and Life afaik.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:39 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:37 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues. most Starleagues yes. But most trophies is flawed because a HSC surely isn't worth as much as a Blizzcon win. Ofc it is flawed, but the point is that people are flawed too and will stick to their guns until it is overwhelmingly obvious that one player is the GOAT. To be the GOAT, you have to be better than everyone else. To get everyone to recognize you as GOAT though, you need to be WAY better than everyone else. Ziggurat thinks way better means 2x, I would say that most Starleagues + most trophies is enough because what do people argue against in that case? It's a lowest common denominator sort of thing, and if one person has won the biggest tournaments and the most, that's pretty hard to argue with.
Maybe 2 times is excessive.
Maybe a better test would be to compare the player with a parallel-universe soO who actually won the extra 15-20 maps necessary to win all those finals, and see if you look good compared to him  .
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On September 16 2017 06:39 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:37 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues. most Starleagues yes. But most trophies is flawed because a HSC surely isn't worth as much as a Blizzcon win. Ofc it is flawed, but the point is that people are flawed too and will stick to their guns until it is overwhelmingly obvious that one player is the GOAT. To be the GOAT, you have to be better than everyone else. To get everyone to recognize you as GOAT though, you need to be WAY better than everyone else.
Sure, but I haven't heard a single reasonable argument why Inno wouldn't be the goat when he wins GSL.
He has the most Starleagues and most korean weekender wins, outmatches Life and Mvp (his only contenders) in teamleague achievements BY FAR.
So the only category left are foreign tournaments in which Inno has WCS season finals and IEM Gamescom.
Mvp has an MLG, a Blizzcon in which NesTea was his only real opponent and 3 tournaments with mostly foreign opposition (WCS EU, IEM Cologne and WCG).
Mvp should be OUT of the discussion now, he gets outmatched in every single category.
When it comes to Life his foreign tournaments outmatch Innos by far but he wasn't that succesful in korea with 2 starleagues and 1 weekender so I don't think it makes up for it.
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:37 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues. most Starleagues yes. But most trophies is flawed because a HSC surely isn't worth as much as a Blizzcon win. Ofc it is flawed, but the point is that people are flawed too and will stick to their guns until it is overwhelmingly obvious that one player is the GOAT. To be the GOAT, you have to be better than everyone else. To get everyone to recognize you as GOAT though, you need to be WAY better than everyone else. Sure, but I haven't heard a single reasonable argument why Inno wouldn't be the goat when he wins GSL. He has the most Starleagues and most korean weekender wins, outmatches Life and Mvp (his only contenders) in teamleague achievements BY FAR. So the only category left are foreign tournaments in which Inno has WCS season finals and IEM Gamescom. Mvp has an MLG, a Blizzcon in which NesTea was his only real opponent and 3 tournaments with mostly foreign opposition (WCS EU, IEM Cologne and WCG). Mvp should be OUT of the discussion now, he gets outmatched in every single category. When it comes to Life his foreign tournaments outmatch Innos by far but he wasn't that succesful in korea with 2 starleagues and 1 weekender so I don't think it makes up for it.
Don't worry about it. 15 hours from now you'll get the opportunity to try to convince people that INno is the GOAT, and then you'll get a bunch of more or less reasonable arguments against it.
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On September 16 2017 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2017 06:39 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:37 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:34 pvsnp wrote:On September 16 2017 06:33 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:31 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:28 Charoisaur wrote:On September 16 2017 06:16 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On September 16 2017 06:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Innovation wins the third GSL season of a year, he has this. 4-1 or 4-2. The GOAT discussion will never stop though, not even this GSL win will be enough for some Of course not. Even a win here wouldn't put him indisputably and significantly ahead of everyone else's results. If he wins he'll have the most starleagues as well as the most korean weekenders. With proper reasoning you won't be able to deny his goat status anymore. People will still argue that he gathered them over a longer period of time. To obtain anything that vaguely looks like consensus for something like the GOAT, you probably need to double anyone else's achievements. That's the most flawed logic I've ever heard. I think what he meant was that in order to make it incontestable that Inno is GOAT, you need to double 2nd place's achievements. Which I think is pretty ridiculous too. GOAT should be incontestable once one player has the most trophies and most Starleagues. most Starleagues yes. But most trophies is flawed because a HSC surely isn't worth as much as a Blizzcon win. Ofc it is flawed, but the point is that people are flawed too and will stick to their guns until it is overwhelmingly obvious that one player is the GOAT. To be the GOAT, you have to be better than everyone else. To get everyone to recognize you as GOAT though, you need to be WAY better than everyone else. Sure, but I haven't heard a single reasonable argument why Inno wouldn't be the goat when he wins GSL. He has the most Starleagues and most korean weekender wins, outmatches Life and Mvp (his only contenders) in teamleague achievements BY FAR. So the only category left are foreign tournaments in which Inno has WCS season finals and IEM Gamescom. Mvp has an MLG, a Blizzcon in which NesTea was his only real opponent and 3 tournaments with mostly foreign opposition (WCS EU, IEM Cologne and WCG). Mvp should be OUT of the discussion now, he gets outmatched in every single category. When it comes to Life his foreign tournaments outmatch Innos by far but he wasn't that succesful in korea with 2 starleagues and 1 weekender so I don't think it makes up for it.
Some arguments people use (which I disagree with, btw) is that Inno has had longer to win his trophies, that he has peaked and slumped multiple times, that he is overly reliant on a Terran-favored meta, that the overall skill level is lower nowadays, and that Starleagues aren't worth much more than weekenders.
Inno has a lot of haters as well as a lot of fans, and they will use whatever excuse they can come up with to deny he is GOAT (atm I would say Inno is close but not quite). The only thing that will convince the diehard haters (or at least force them to shut up) is if Inno wins so much that arguing against him being the GOAT is completely laughable.
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Some arguments people use (which I disagree with, btw) is that Inno has had longer to win his trophies
I don't think it should count against him that he didn't matchfix/didn't injure his hands. Other players had the opportunity too to play for as long as he did.
that he has peaked and slumped multiple times,
So has everyone else
that he is overly reliant on a Terran-favored meta
complete bullshit
that the overall skill level is lower nowadays
Lower than when Mvp was playing?
Starleagues aren't worth much more than weekenders
I actually agree with this. I count Starleagues pretty much the same as weekenders with similar competition (Blizzcon/IEM Katowice).
thing is that Life and Mvp haven't won a lot of tier 1 weekend tournaments
I realize you said you disagree with the arguments anyway but some of these can't really be considered "reasonable arguments" because the logic behind them is completely flawed.
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Meh, even if Inno wins he's not the GOAT. No one in sc2 has results that scream GOAT status tbh. Inno, Life, Zest, MVP are all up there but they all stand out in different aspects
Purely winning more tournaments over the course of 4 years or whatever is a weak reason to call someone the GOAT. For the most part he's gotten 1-2 wins a year and never been dominant for more than a few months.
And the criticism of him only winning when terran is favoured still stands btw. But with his playstyle (standard play practiced to perfection), that's simply what's going to happen.
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Well whatever, in 10 hours this show will start and Inno will be one step closer, that's good enough
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EPT
