EPT[WCS] Summer Tour DreamHack Montreal 2016 - Page 273
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
Other then it being super one sided, was an enjoyable finals. I wish there were some closer games, but at least it was near constant action. | ||
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Kovzirg
126 Posts
Not to say True teched up quickly. It seemed he went for super eco plays and just started throwing banes and lings at Heromarine because he knew he could. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 15 2016 08:37 Kovzirg wrote: Honestly I think this is the new Zerg meta. I didn't see the finals but vs Heromarine the mass early queen defensive style was just so effective and it makes sense. I think we will start to see this very often. Maybe coupled with fast teching up builds. How was the finals vs Polt? Not to say True teched up quickly. It seemed he went for super eco plays and just started throwing banes and lings at Heromarine because he knew he could. For some reason it reminds me of previous time queen range was buffed. | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On August 15 2016 08:37 Kovzirg wrote: Honestly I think this is the new Zerg meta. I didn't see the finals but vs Heromarine the mass early queen defensive style was just so effective and it makes sense. I think we will start to see this very often. Maybe coupled with fast teching up builds. How was the finals vs Polt? Not to say True teched up quickly. It seemed he went for super eco plays and just started throwing banes and lings at Heromarine because he knew he could. There was a Queen drop against Polt, but TRUE's amazing ability to use lings/banelings made for a quick, and one-sided finals. | ||
Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19300 Posts
On August 15 2016 08:37 Kovzirg wrote: Honestly I think this is the new Zerg meta. I didn't see the finals but vs Heromarine the mass early queen defensive style was just so effective and it makes sense. I think we will start to see this very often. Maybe coupled with fast teching up builds. How was the finals vs Polt? Not to say True teched up quickly. It seemed he went for super eco plays and just started throwing banes and lings at Heromarine because he knew he could. I only saw the last game and honestly was really bored by trues play. He made nearly all lings and just a few banelings and won against a terran that tech-ed. Lings are fun to watch in the early game, but you should never win a game that goes that long by just making pure ling. His play reminds me of life who used to also win with just lings and then I'd feel really embarrassed for the opponent. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On August 15 2016 11:03 BisuDagger wrote: I only saw the last game and honestly was really bored by trues play. He made nearly all lings and just a few banelings and won against a terran that tech-ed. Lings are fun to watch in the early game, but you should never win a game that goes that long by just making pure ling. His play reminds me of life who used to also win with just lings and then I'd feel really embarrassed for the opponent. Now that you mention it, Polt had some truly embarassing moments in these games. | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On August 15 2016 11:05 lolfail9001 wrote: Now that you mention it, Polt had some truly embarassing moments in these games. A lot of depots that weren't raised in time. | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
On August 15 2016 10:55 Soularion wrote: As crazy as this tournament felt, it was more like a lot of odd circumstances than legitimate change. If we look at the PR, TRUE/Drogo are probably the only ones to get legitimate bumps; even then, nothing major. I think this was a very easy bracket for TRUE which is why he looked so dominant, so I'd rather put him around #7 (where Hydra is now) than go crazy and place him top 4. Nerchio > Neeb > ShoWTimE > Polt seems legit, and I should probably weigh 'known-ness' more. That's something that badly effected Snute and uThermal, as they had played a lot of games recently, while TRUE/HeRoMaRinE (especially heromarine) were helped a lot by not playing much as of late. In general I think this confirms what I thought about a lot of playes, with TRUE being the one exception where he paved a new identity for himself - which was most likely going to happen due to this being his first really big tournament. sorry, you just saw how a korean player (ex code s, mind you) obliterated the competition and you still want to place him only at 7, behind choking foreigners? and how exactly does not playing a lot games recently help a lot? | ||
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zakadar
Germany409 Posts
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Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
On August 15 2016 11:39 zakadar wrote: I wouldnt say true got an easy bracket You could even argue that he got one of the most difficult brackets possible in round 1 snute who just won NSL after that #yearofharstem on of the best foreign pvz players after that a tricky welmu who knocked out Hydra after this Heromarine who killed really strong opponents in Showtime and Marinelord and bet true at homestorycup 3:0 and finally Polt R1 : Snute, completely fair. R2 : Harstem, who almost lost to iaguz, and lost to MaSa (before he got good) as well as Jim in the previous WCS events. He's great, but at the same time he's had a history of disappointing big in WCS events. R3 : Welmu, who beat Hydra by using a style that TRUE could then look at and go 'oh hey lets prepare to get cheesed' at which point he's significantly less strong. R4 : HeRoMaRinE, who beat ShoWTimE/MarineLorD largely by using styles that they wouldn't expect and isn't very comfortable in TvZ, plus they already played so he doesn't have the surprise effect. R5 : Polt, who typically struggles against early-game centric zergs, and has had terrible early game mechanics all tournament long. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 15 2016 10:55 Soularion wrote: As crazy as this tournament felt, it was more like a lot of odd circumstances than legitimate change. If we look at the PR, TRUE/Drogo are probably the only ones to get legitimate bumps; even then, nothing major. I think this was a very easy bracket for TRUE which is why he looked so dominant, so I'd rather put him around #7 (where Hydra is now) than go crazy and place him top 4. Nerchio > Neeb > ShoWTimE > Polt seems legit, and I should probably weigh 'known-ness' more. That's something that badly effected Snute and uThermal, as they had played a lot of games recently, while TRUE/HeRoMaRinE (especially heromarine) were helped a lot by not playing much as of late. In general I think this confirms what I thought about a lot of playes, with TRUE being the one exception where he paved a new identity for himself - which was most likely going to happen due to this being his first really big tournament. On the bright side (or dark side, depending how you look at it), your PR rank got a shoutout by Artosis and Rotti at the end of the show (albeit along the likes of "TRUE number 11? No way! Too low"). To be fair, it's honestly hard to make a PR for the foreigner scene due to the lack of meaningful tournament games - and by that, I mean games that really matter to all players (and not just some online tourney). And I don't see how the results justify the likes of Neeb and Nerchio being as high as you put them. As for performance, I've seen a fair amount of games to be able to say "Typical high level foreigner play, solid against weaker opponents, wonky at times, low-tier Code S level at most". Are the likes of Polt, TRUE, Hydra and Violet better? On average, not by much, maybe even lower at some period of time. But through their performance, you could see glimpses of their peak (which doesn't happen often enough to win more championships, and could be slightly lacking due to the sort of motivational drive and support that Korean team-houses give). And when the stakes high, they have that cutting edge to prevail in the end (just like this last DH). Results-wise, they're sitting pretty high on WCS points - and perhaps this should be a good barometer of who's good and who's not in the foreigner scene. This is not to say that WCS Koreans are way better than foreigners by a mile, nor that Neeb and Nerchio can't beat Polt and Hydra on any given day (which they have). The point is that they're much closer - Top 5 should be a mix of Neeb, Nerchio, Polt, TRUE, and perhaps even Hydra (he's on a slump though). A PR with foreigners as Top 3 is just rather too generous, optimistic, and yes, biased. | ||
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Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
On August 15 2016 12:36 RKC wrote: On the bright side (or dark side, depending how you look at it), your PR rank got a shoutout by Artosis and Rotti at the end of the show (albeit along the likes of "TRUE number 11? No way! Too low"). To be fair, it's honestly hard to make a PR for the foreigner scene due to the lack of meaningful tournament games - and by that, I mean games that really matter to all players (and not just some online tourney). And I don't see how the results justify the likes of Neeb and Nerchio being as high as you put them. As for performance, I've seen a fair amount of games to be able to say "Typical high level foreigner play, solid against weaker opponents, wonky at times, low-tier Code S level at most". Are the likes of Polt, TRUE, Hydra and Violet better? On average, not by much, maybe even lower at some period of time. But through their performance, you could see glimpses of their peak (which doesn't happen often enough to win more championships, and could be slightly lacking due to the sort of motivational drive and support that Korean team-houses give). And when the stakes high, they have that cutting edge to prevail in the end (just like this last DH). Results-wise, they're sitting pretty high on WCS points - and perhaps this should be a good barometer of who's good and who's not in the foreigner scene. This is not to say that WCS Koreans are way better than foreigners by a mile, nor that Neeb and Nerchio can't beat Polt and Hydra on any given day (which they have). The point is that they're much closer - Top 5 should be a mix of Neeb, Nerchio, Polt, TRUE, and perhaps even Hydra (he's on a slump though). A PR with foreigners as Top 3 is just rather too generous, optimistic, and yes, biased. Nerchio's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 70/81 Polt's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 66/75 Neeb's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 65/74 ShoWTimE's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 62/70 viOLet's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 55/63 Hydra's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 63/75 (55/53 since Austin) Those are the stats. And I think those stats clearly prove that an all-foreigner top 3 is, while pessimistic towards Polt in a way I pointed out in the damn article, not 'biased'. You could make an argument that people like Snute/uThermal/MarineLorD being above Polt is wrong, and I'd agree with you; I probably overrated them, and I'd put Polt #4 or maybe #3 in a PR made today. But saying that viOLet/Hydra are even comparable to the top foreigners is just laughably wrong by any statistic. If Hydra was comparable to Neeb, he wouldn't go 1-9 against him. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On August 15 2016 13:34 Soularion wrote: Nerchio's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 70/81 Polt's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 66/75 Neeb's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 65/74 ShoWTimE's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 62/70 viOLet's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 55/63 Hydra's offline winrate from WCS Winter to now : 63/75 (55/53 since Austin) Those are the stats. And I think those stats clearly prove that an all-foreigner top 3 is, while pessimistic towards Polt in a way I pointed out in the damn article, not 'biased'. You could make an argument that people like Snute/uThermal/MarineLorD being above Polt is wrong, and I'd agree with you; I probably overrated them, and I'd put Polt #4 or maybe #3 in a PR made today. But saying that viOLet/Hydra are even comparable to the top foreigners is just laughably wrong by any statistic. If Hydra was comparable to Neeb, he wouldn't go 1-9 against him. But offline tourneys in the foreigner scene are patchy and scattered. It's not like Starleagues and Proleague, where it's a must for every Korean to take seriously and focus on, which make stats from there more reliable. So those offline winrate stats could be distorted by wins against lesser players. Gauging the level of two players purely by their H2H can be misleading. Zest has a lopsided record against Maru - doesn't make him better than Maru by a mile. To be fair, it's not a foreigner thing. I see the same methodology applied to PR and GOAT for Koreans too, which puts players like Taeja and Parting unduly high (at least, to me). Again, the sticking point is placing too high emphasis on results and stats on non-premier tournaments (which simply means tournaments that not every players treats as the highest priority, especially KeSPA Koreans). I guess it comes down to a difference of standards. Not saying yours is bad - it's actually good. Just feel that it could be improved, that's all. Keep up the PR! | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On August 15 2016 12:36 RKC wrote: On the bright side (or dark side, depending how you look at it), your PR rank got a shoutout by Artosis and Rotti at the end of the show (albeit along the likes of "TRUE number 11? No way! Too low"). To be fair, it's honestly hard to make a PR for the foreigner scene due to the lack of meaningful tournament games - and by that, I mean games that really matter to all players (and not just some online tourney). And I don't see how the results justify the likes of Neeb and Nerchio being as high as you put them. As for performance, I've seen a fair amount of games to be able to say "Typical high level foreigner play, solid against weaker opponents, wonky at times, low-tier Code S level at most". Are the likes of Polt, TRUE, Hydra and Violet better? On average, not by much, maybe even lower at some period of time. But through their performance, you could see glimpses of their peak (which doesn't happen often enough to win more championships, and could be slightly lacking due to the sort of motivational drive and support that Korean team-houses give). And when the stakes high, they have that cutting edge to prevail in the end (just like this last DH). Results-wise, they're sitting pretty high on WCS points - and perhaps this should be a good barometer of who's good and who's not in the foreigner scene. This is not to say that WCS Koreans are way better than foreigners by a mile, nor that Neeb and Nerchio can't beat Polt and Hydra on any given day (which they have). The point is that they're much closer - Top 5 should be a mix of Neeb, Nerchio, Polt, TRUE, and perhaps even Hydra (he's on a slump though). A PR with foreigners as Top 3 is just rather too generous, optimistic, and yes, biased. You can use the logic of True adjusting to polt adjusting to True's style afterwards, which polt did not do so True's on to something. So either adjusting your play to a particular style is not that easy (then True's victory against welmu is legit) or adjusting your play to a particular style is easy and True's victory against polt is legit | ||
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
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AxiomB
69 Posts
Thus what did I just watch? I will tell you, it was the arrival of a True champion, the defining moment when a player raises his head and says "here is a man, that will not put up with mediocrity, a man that will fight for all, a rod that will not bend." Mark my words 'TLers' True will be become a mighty force in the coming months, a Z pilot with the ability to roll all in his path and yes, even Korean Koreans! My inner ling hatched and squealed in rapturous elation when Polt crumbled and fumbled against the savagery of True's linglines, yes the depots were late to be raised, yes his micro was off, yes he made several blunders early game, but all that and more was because for the first time in quite a long time, Polt felt the cold and cruel force of a Korean Zerg in full flight encircling his ailing skills in rings of Zerg claws. Serious business was had, viewing pleasure was minimal, this was a panther disemboweling a ferret, a grisly scene, yet one I could not look away from, not in visceral entertainment, no, but in astonishing respect for the hunter's prowess... | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
It felt like Polt wasn't at the top of his game at all, which may or may not be due to three long days of non-stop starcraft and having played a semi-finals not even 15 minutes before the finals began. | ||
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