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On August 15 2016 15:24 maartendq wrote:
I was disappointed in the finals. It was way too onesided, and I saw Polt make mistakes I did not expect him to make. During the queen drop/ling bust he had a tank available, but he somehow wasn't interested in properly defending that attack. If he was, siege mode and a couple of SCVs repairing the bunker and supply depos would have shut that attack down completely and effortlessly.
It felt like Polt wasn't at the top of his game at all, which may or may not be due to three long days of non-stop starcraft and having played a semi-finals not even 15 minutes before the finals began.
Hence why I always feel that weekend tourneys don't do justice to the true measure of quality. Stamina and luck factors highly, diluting strategy and skill. It's like having a World Cup finals a day after the semis (even as it is now, I think the schedule is too punishing).
Starleague format best format.
(But that said, even the current dual Starleague run too closely to each other, hence being hard on players like Dark who are deep in both tourneys. Even in football, it's common to see big clubs fielding a weaker team in a tournament it has little chance of winning, if it means maximising chances in another tournament. Or an even simpler analogy - it's easier to study and score for exams if they are spread out over a few weeks, as opposed to being back to back.)
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Canada2764 Posts
On August 15 2016 15:16 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 12:36 RKC wrote:On August 15 2016 10:55 Soularion wrote:
As crazy as this tournament felt, it was more like a lot of odd circumstances than legitimate change. If we look at the PR, TRUE/Drogo are probably the only ones to get legitimate bumps; even then, nothing major. I think this was a very easy bracket for TRUE which is why he looked so dominant, so I'd rather put him around #7 (where Hydra is now) than go crazy and place him top 4. Nerchio > Neeb > ShoWTimE > Polt seems legit, and I should probably weigh 'known-ness' more. That's something that badly effected Snute and uThermal, as they had played a lot of games recently, while TRUE/HeRoMaRinE (especially heromarine) were helped a lot by not playing much as of late. In general I think this confirms what I thought about a lot of playes, with TRUE being the one exception where he paved a new identity for himself - which was most likely going to happen due to this being his first really big tournament. On the bright side (or dark side, depending how you look at it), your PR rank got a shoutout by Artosis and Rotti at the end of the show (albeit along the likes of "TRUE number 11? No way! Too low"). To be fair, it's honestly hard to make a PR for the foreigner scene due to the lack of meaningful tournament games - and by that, I mean games that really matter to all players (and not just some online tourney). And I don't see how the results justify the likes of Neeb and Nerchio being as high as you put them. As for performance, I've seen a fair amount of games to be able to say "Typical high level foreigner play, solid against weaker opponents, wonky at times, low-tier Code S level at most". Are the likes of Polt, TRUE, Hydra and Violet better? On average, not by much, maybe even lower at some period of time. But through their performance, you could see glimpses of their peak (which doesn't happen often enough to win more championships, and could be slightly lacking due to the sort of motivational drive and support that Korean team-houses give). And when the stakes high, they have that cutting edge to prevail in the end (just like this last DH). Results-wise, they're sitting pretty high on WCS points - and perhaps this should be a good barometer of who's good and who's not in the foreigner scene. This is not to say that WCS Koreans are way better than foreigners by a mile, nor that Neeb and Nerchio can't beat Polt and Hydra on any given day (which they have). The point is that they're much closer - Top 5 should be a mix of Neeb, Nerchio, Polt, TRUE, and perhaps even Hydra (he's on a slump though). A PR with foreigners as Top 3 is just rather too generous, optimistic, and yes, biased. You can use the logic of True adjusting to polt adjusting to True's style afterwards, which polt did not do so True's on to something. So either adjusting your play to a particular style is not that easy (then True's victory against welmu is legit) or adjusting your play to a particular style is easy and True's victory against polt is legit
I'm not 100% sure how much this relates to your post, but I do think TRUE is a fucking awesome player who played out of his mind this tournament. A the same time, his run isn't particularly good in terms of opponents; he dodged many of the top foreigners, and got a few under-performing players as well. I think Polt was by far the easiest finals opponent he could've gotten (realistically), and HeRoMaRinE was far easier than expectations for his Ro4. But I'm really excited to see him play at blizzcon, and I think he's more than ready enough to take on players such as ShoWTimE and MarineLorD and uThermal; I just don't know if he'll dominate them as hard as he dominated the rest of the field. TRUE's a legit player, he's always been a legit player, but I'm not sure if he's 'destroying the foreign scene easy' caliber quite yet.
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France13021 Posts
On August 15 2016 11:46 Soularion wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 11:39 zakadar wrote:
I wouldnt say true got an easy bracket You could even argue that he got one of the most difficult brackets possible in round 1 snute who just won NSL after that #yearofharstem on of the best foreign pvz players after that a tricky welmu who knocked out Hydra after this Heromarine who killed really strong opponents in Showtime and Marinelord and bet true at homestorycup 3:0 and finally Polt R1 : Snute, completely fair. R2 : Harstem, who almost lost to iaguz, and lost to MaSa (before he got good) as well as Jim in the previous WCS events. He's great, but at the same time he's had a history of disappointing big in WCS events. R3 : Welmu, who beat Hydra by using a style that TRUE could then look at and go 'oh hey lets prepare to get cheesed' at which point he's significantly less strong. R4 : HeRoMaRinE, who beat ShoWTimE/MarineLorD largely by using styles that they wouldn't expect and isn't very comfortable in TvZ, plus they already played so he doesn't have the surprise effect. R5 : Polt, who typically struggles against early-game centric zergs, and has had terrible early game mechanics all tournament long.
R2: PvT doesn't matter for PvZ, see old Drogo.
R3: if it's that easy Hydra would have adapted in the series.
R4: beating someone who 3-0ed you in spite of being the underdog isn't an easy feat.
R5: if your statement was true Polt would not have been in the finals or his opponents (including Neeb) were really bad not to use this to win.
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On August 15 2016 19:45 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 11:46 Soularion wrote:On August 15 2016 11:39 zakadar wrote:
I wouldnt say true got an easy bracket You could even argue that he got one of the most difficult brackets possible in round 1 snute who just won NSL after that #yearofharstem on of the best foreign pvz players after that a tricky welmu who knocked out Hydra after this Heromarine who killed really strong opponents in Showtime and Marinelord and bet true at homestorycup 3:0 and finally Polt R1 : Snute, completely fair. R2 : Harstem, who almost lost to iaguz, and lost to MaSa (before he got good) as well as Jim in the previous WCS events. He's great, but at the same time he's had a history of disappointing big in WCS events. R3 : Welmu, who beat Hydra by using a style that TRUE could then look at and go 'oh hey lets prepare to get cheesed' at which point he's significantly less strong. R4 : HeRoMaRinE, who beat ShoWTimE/MarineLorD largely by using styles that they wouldn't expect and isn't very comfortable in TvZ, plus they already played so he doesn't have the surprise effect. R5 : Polt, who typically struggles against early-game centric zergs, and has had terrible early game mechanics all tournament long. R2: PvT doesn't matter for PvZ, see old Drogo. R3: if it's that easy Hydra would have adapted in the series. R4: beating someone who 3-0ed you in spite of being the underdog isn't an easy feat. R5: if your statement was true Polt would not have been in the finals or his opponents (including Neeb) were really bad not to use this to win.
In all honestly Polt's performance in some of his games (especially neeb) was dissapointing. Hell, with better decision making Neeb would have taken the series 3:1, Polt got really lucky with Neeb's indecision.
I mean Neeb could have won that game when Polt was sniping his 4th, instead he decides not to pull back his army and defend OR to jump onto Polt's 3rd and destroy it (in this situation you pick one of those 2 and do it). Leaving his army out on the map doing nothing while Polt kills 3rd and 4th with about 20 supply -_-
And game 2 was also a throw for Neeb, he is a base ahead of Terran and he kills half of Polt's workers, the only thing he needs to do here is defend and he wins (Polt is obviously forced to attack him to equalise the economies). Then Neeb attacks Polt's front door for no reason and loses to the counter attack -_-
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its quite obvious True was playing 1 level above anyone he met in the bracket, including Polt.
And some strange results happened in the "foreign" matches, with Scarlett, Nerchio, MarineLord, uThermal getting knocked out without playing two finalists.
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OMG the hell happened there? True 3-0 Snute, Harstem and Welmu? Is TRUE the literal god or are foreigners still surprisingly bad?
They should make the WCS tourneys "everyone against any Koreans present", to see if there is anyone who would fare better against them if they weren't eliminated by another foreigner ... or, honestly, anything but single elimination already!
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On August 15 2016 21:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 19:45 Poopi wrote:On August 15 2016 11:46 Soularion wrote:On August 15 2016 11:39 zakadar wrote:
I wouldnt say true got an easy bracket You could even argue that he got one of the most difficult brackets possible in round 1 snute who just won NSL after that #yearofharstem on of the best foreign pvz players after that a tricky welmu who knocked out Hydra after this Heromarine who killed really strong opponents in Showtime and Marinelord and bet true at homestorycup 3:0 and finally Polt R1 : Snute, completely fair. R2 : Harstem, who almost lost to iaguz, and lost to MaSa (before he got good) as well as Jim in the previous WCS events. He's great, but at the same time he's had a history of disappointing big in WCS events. R3 : Welmu, who beat Hydra by using a style that TRUE could then look at and go 'oh hey lets prepare to get cheesed' at which point he's significantly less strong. R4 : HeRoMaRinE, who beat ShoWTimE/MarineLorD largely by using styles that they wouldn't expect and isn't very comfortable in TvZ, plus they already played so he doesn't have the surprise effect. R5 : Polt, who typically struggles against early-game centric zergs, and has had terrible early game mechanics all tournament long. R2: PvT doesn't matter for PvZ, see old Drogo. R3: if it's that easy Hydra would have adapted in the series. R4: beating someone who 3-0ed you in spite of being the underdog isn't an easy feat. R5: if your statement was true Polt would not have been in the finals or his opponents (including Neeb) were really bad not to use this to win. In all honestly Polt's performance in some of his games (especially neeb) was dissapointing. Hell, with better decision making Neeb would have taken the series 3:1, Polt got really lucky with Neeb's indecision. I mean Neeb could have won that game when Polt was sniping his 4th, instead he decides not to pull back his army and defend OR to jump onto Polt's 3rd and destroy it (in this situation you pick one of those 2 and do it). Leaving his army out on the map doing nothing while Polt kills 3rd and 4th with about 20 supply -_- And game 2 was also a throw for Neeb, he is a base ahead of Terran and he kills half of Polt's workers, the only thing he needs to do here is defend and he wins (Polt is obviously forced to attack him to equalise the economies). Then Neeb attacks Polt's front door for no reason and loses to the counter attack -_-
Top foreigner beats WCS Korean - foreigner so good, Korean got outclassed
WCS Korean beats top foreigner - foreigner played far below peak, Korean got lucky
Familiar theme
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On August 15 2016 23:41 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2016 21:24 Fango wrote:On August 15 2016 19:45 Poopi wrote:On August 15 2016 11:46 Soularion wrote:On August 15 2016 11:39 zakadar wrote:
I wouldnt say true got an easy bracket You could even argue that he got one of the most difficult brackets possible in round 1 snute who just won NSL after that #yearofharstem on of the best foreign pvz players after that a tricky welmu who knocked out Hydra after this Heromarine who killed really strong opponents in Showtime and Marinelord and bet true at homestorycup 3:0 and finally Polt R1 : Snute, completely fair. R2 : Harstem, who almost lost to iaguz, and lost to MaSa (before he got good) as well as Jim in the previous WCS events. He's great, but at the same time he's had a history of disappointing big in WCS events. R3 : Welmu, who beat Hydra by using a style that TRUE could then look at and go 'oh hey lets prepare to get cheesed' at which point he's significantly less strong. R4 : HeRoMaRinE, who beat ShoWTimE/MarineLorD largely by using styles that they wouldn't expect and isn't very comfortable in TvZ, plus they already played so he doesn't have the surprise effect. R5 : Polt, who typically struggles against early-game centric zergs, and has had terrible early game mechanics all tournament long. R2: PvT doesn't matter for PvZ, see old Drogo. R3: if it's that easy Hydra would have adapted in the series. R4: beating someone who 3-0ed you in spite of being the underdog isn't an easy feat. R5: if your statement was true Polt would not have been in the finals or his opponents (including Neeb) were really bad not to use this to win. In all honestly Polt's performance in some of his games (especially neeb) was dissapointing. Hell, with better decision making Neeb would have taken the series 3:1, Polt got really lucky with Neeb's indecision. I mean Neeb could have won that game when Polt was sniping his 4th, instead he decides not to pull back his army and defend OR to jump onto Polt's 3rd and destroy it (in this situation you pick one of those 2 and do it). Leaving his army out on the map doing nothing while Polt kills 3rd and 4th with about 20 supply -_- And game 2 was also a throw for Neeb, he is a base ahead of Terran and he kills half of Polt's workers, the only thing he needs to do here is defend and he wins (Polt is obviously forced to attack him to equalise the economies). Then Neeb attacks Polt's front door for no reason and loses to the counter attack -_- Top foreigner beats WCS Korean - foreigner so good, Korean got outclassed WCS Korean beats top foreigner - foreigner played far below peak, Korean got lucky Familiar theme
He's actually completely correct. I don't really think he said much about luck only about Neeb being really close to taking the series pretty convincingly if he didn't make some extremely questionable decisions. The worst being the game two blunder to attack for some reason when he was ahead by a mile economically and only needed to hold on for a few rounds of warp ins and be ahead army wise as well instead he gets caught out on the map in no man's land and loses to Polts all in.
Edit- ah yes I see his comment about luck now. It wasn't lucky he won but it wasn't really because of his prowess...it was based on some pretty bad Neeb mistakes.
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Overall a pretty awesome tournament! I was there and the place was PACKED, even on Saturday.
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EPT
