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On August 20 2015 23:45 RKC wrote:
Well, of course, it's one thing to pioneer a style on the televised game for the very first time, but quite another to pioneer it in an effective way that starts a new meta. Perhaps for the latter, "popularise" is a better word. Much like how Bisu "popularised" DT-sair when he beat Savior in BW.
So can we just agree that Inno "popularised" this new turtle mech style against Zerg?
The style itself has been around forever, but between maru and innovation being the most successful terrans - with bio - it was hard to argue that this style was "the meta". The difference between previously when mainly some mid-successful players - gumiho, flash, bravo, skyhigh, yoda - and now is plainly that a player that is massively overshadowing the named ones in skill has picked up on it. And has ridden it deeper in tournaments than the others due to the higher skill.
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On August 20 2015 23:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 23:45 RKC wrote:
Well, of course, it's one thing to pioneer a style on the televised game for the very first time, but quite another to pioneer it in an effective way that starts a new meta. Perhaps for the latter, "popularise" is a better word. Much like how Bisu "popularised" DT-sair when he beat Savior in BW.
So can we just agree that Inno "popularised" this new turtle mech style against Zerg? The style itself has been around forever, but between maru and innovation being the most successful terrans - with bio - it was hard to argue that this style was "the meta". The difference between previously when mainly some mid-successful players - gumiho, flash, bravo, skyhigh, yoda - and now is plainly that a player that is massively overshadowing the named ones in skill has picked up on it. And has ridden it deeper in tournaments than the others due to the higher skill.
Well, perhaps that's how a player "popularises" a style - by convincingly trouncing strong opponents using it. The greater its success, the more it catches on with other players. My BW history is hazy, but I believe DTsair had been done before by Reach / Anytime / some Protoss years before Bisu used it with perfection to win MSL. And history now remembers Bisu as "pioneering" / "popularising" / "perfecting" DTsair - whatever you wanna call it. Maybe BisuDagger can clarify this bit 
Point is, Inno made this style worked better than others before him, and deserves credit for it.
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Bisutopia19399 Posts
On August 21 2015 00:07 RKC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 23:54 Big J wrote:On August 20 2015 23:45 RKC wrote:
Well, of course, it's one thing to pioneer a style on the televised game for the very first time, but quite another to pioneer it in an effective way that starts a new meta. Perhaps for the latter, "popularise" is a better word. Much like how Bisu "popularised" DT-sair when he beat Savior in BW.
So can we just agree that Inno "popularised" this new turtle mech style against Zerg? The style itself has been around forever, but between maru and innovation being the most successful terrans - with bio - it was hard to argue that this style was "the meta". The difference between previously when mainly some mid-successful players - gumiho, flash, bravo, skyhigh, yoda - and now is plainly that a player that is massively overshadowing the named ones in skill has picked up on it. And has ridden it deeper in tournaments than the others due to the higher skill. Well, perhaps that's how a player "popularises" a style - by convincingly trouncing strong opponents using it. The greater its success, the more it catches on with other players. My BW history is hazy, but I believe DTsair had been done before by Reach / Anytime / some Protoss years before Bisu used it with perfection to win MSL. And history now remembers Bisu as "pioneering" / "popularising" / "perfecting" DTsair - whatever you wanna call it. Maybe BisuDagger can clarify this bit Point is, Inno made this style worked better than others before him, and deserves credit for it.
Bisu didn't not invent the wheel, he just used it better then anyone else. sair/dt existed but was weak because nobody could multitask it well enough until Bisu. Bisu revolutionized the bisu build a second time with his +1 zealot speed first timing into sair dt. So yes you are correct. Like the bisu build, many others play the build on bnet, but it takes one player ten fold better then the rest to say hey this is incredibly strong if you have the talent.
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On August 21 2015 01:34 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 00:07 RKC wrote:On August 20 2015 23:54 Big J wrote:On August 20 2015 23:45 RKC wrote:
Well, of course, it's one thing to pioneer a style on the televised game for the very first time, but quite another to pioneer it in an effective way that starts a new meta. Perhaps for the latter, "popularise" is a better word. Much like how Bisu "popularised" DT-sair when he beat Savior in BW.
So can we just agree that Inno "popularised" this new turtle mech style against Zerg? The style itself has been around forever, but between maru and innovation being the most successful terrans - with bio - it was hard to argue that this style was "the meta". The difference between previously when mainly some mid-successful players - gumiho, flash, bravo, skyhigh, yoda - and now is plainly that a player that is massively overshadowing the named ones in skill has picked up on it. And has ridden it deeper in tournaments than the others due to the higher skill. Well, perhaps that's how a player "popularises" a style - by convincingly trouncing strong opponents using it. The greater its success, the more it catches on with other players. My BW history is hazy, but I believe DTsair had been done before by Reach / Anytime / some Protoss years before Bisu used it with perfection to win MSL. And history now remembers Bisu as "pioneering" / "popularising" / "perfecting" DTsair - whatever you wanna call it. Maybe BisuDagger can clarify this bit Point is, Inno made this style worked better than others before him, and deserves credit for it. Bisu didn't not invent the wheel, he just used it better then anyone else. sair/dt existed but was weak because nobody could multitask it well enough until Bisu. Bisu revolutionized the bisu build a second time with his +1 zealot speed first timing into sair dt. So yes you are correct. Like the bisu build, many others play the build on bnet, but it takes one player ten fold better then the rest to say hey this is incredibly strong if you have the talent.
Nal_rA invented the wheel, actually. But yes, Bisu did use the wheel better than anyone else did.
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I don't see how Innovation can be considered Bisu-like for this specific mech example though
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On August 21 2015 01:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how Innovation can be considered Bisu-like for this specific mech example though
He's Bisu-like because he didn't make 100000 turrets the way Flash would have.
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On August 21 2015 01:47 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 01:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how Innovation can be considered Bisu-like for this specific mech example though He's Bisu-like because he didn't make 100000 turrets the way Flash would have.
He made quite a few turrets :D
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your Country52798 Posts
On August 21 2015 01:47 IntoTheheart wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 01:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how Innovation can be considered Bisu-like for this specific mech example though He's Bisu-like because he didn't make 100000 turrets the way Flash would have.
I dunno, he made a lot of turrets :D
Edit: sniped
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On August 21 2015 01:49 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 01:47 IntoTheheart wrote:On August 21 2015 01:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how Innovation can be considered Bisu-like for this specific mech example though He's Bisu-like because he didn't make 100000 turrets the way Flash would have. I dunno, he made a lot of turrets :D Edit: sniped
I didn't even see all five games, I just idly assumed that he wouldn't build the Flash quantity.
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On August 20 2015 23:23 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
And one more thing, I don't see Byul can somehow pass the mighty Rain in ZvP, not this universe
lol you mean the mighty force fields, hence the mighty dave kim.
only inno salt in here or someone actually happy for byul? despite hots-zerg being sh** he's holding strong atm.
nice win <3 <3 <3
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
skt got destroyed all is well
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On August 21 2015 01:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how Innovation can be considered Bisu-like for this specific mech example though
Yeah, pretty much this. I understand it when people call it INnoVation-mech when referring to the execution of such a turtle-mech style, but the original ideas of turtling on ground mech and then maxing on air-armies with terran go back to the 2011-2012 period and have become quite popular since the upgrades got merged and tanks got buffed (and widow mines nerfed) in HotS.
Inno as a Starcraft-genius deserves all the credit in the world for his play, but he didn't invent the style or probably any of the underlying ideas. The game is too old for these revolutions anyways, assuming no fundamental patches hit. + Show Spoiler +The new swarm host is probably the only thing left that you could really innovate with and even with those I have seen quite some games now that make everything *new* probably look like a variation of those plays
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
On August 20 2015 22:37 Noonius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 22:36 Lorning wrote:
Don't give up ByuL
Beat this fotm terran but what about my bets? Lorning, please
nothing for u
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Byul eats terrans for breakfast
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Man TY loves his bio, ByuL on the other hand is invincible against bio. Doesnt look good at all for TY
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On August 21 2015 04:55 lastride wrote:
Man TY loves his bio, ByuL on the other hand is invincible against bio. Doesnt look good at all for TY
TY used mech to beat rogue the round before.
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Zest 
INno
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The best Protoss and Terran players in the world are now in slumps. How can these champions to lose to these two? Especially Byul lol. TY winning... I can understand because that was a team kill, so Zest might not be in a slump. Innovation, on the other hand, is probably thinking about retiring now since he lost to Byul
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On August 21 2015 02:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2015 01:47 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I don't see how Innovation can be considered Bisu-like for this specific mech example though Yeah, pretty much this. I understand it when people call it INnoVation-mech when referring to the execution of such a turtle-mech style, but the original ideas of turtling on ground mech and then maxing on air-armies with terran go back to the 2011-2012 period and have become quite popular since the upgrades got merged and tanks got buffed (and widow mines nerfed) in HotS. Inno as a Starcraft-genius deserves all the credit in the world for his play, but he didn't invent the style or probably any of the underlying ideas. The game is too old for these revolutions anyways, assuming no fundamental patches hit. + Show Spoiler +The new swarm host is probably the only thing left that you could really innovate with and even with those I have seen quite some games now that make everything *new* probably look like a variation of those plays
Well of course I wasn't equating Inno's turtle mech play to Bisu's DTsair play, nor the former with the latter in terms of revolutionary impact (BisuDagger will cringe!). I'm just pointing out how so-called "pioneers" for any style weren't true pioneers as much as they were "popularisers" - they perfect old rare builds other players thought as weak and made them strong till others started using them as the norm. Geez, it's just an example, folks!
It's also too early to call Inno's turtle mech as the norm now - give it a few more months (if Blizzard doesn't patch it up).
No game is too old for "revolutions". Bisu revolutionised DTsair in, what, >5 years after BW was competitively played? (Which is another reason why Blizzard should leave the game as it is and let the players figure ways out of seemingly imba meta - just like how Zergs are on the brink of figuring out turtle mech)
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EPT
