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This was way to obvious:
Hmm, Pool Gas timing way to late for no exe, so where is it?
Scouts double Gold: Not here
I mean, where should it been else then proxy.
What to do with the reapers: Let em chill in base. Because, hay, we could scout the proxy, be we must not do it.
And yes this "i saw this but i pretend to not see it" Sorry, there is a red dot on your minimap man. For 2 minutes. There is creep in your base, for 10 secounds. React?
We are at Saviour LvL and KESPA does not want to lose 3 big sponsors again, thats all.
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i wouldn't say it's sure that the game was fixed. maybe MK was just in a bad mental state and somebody leaked the information.
On a bad day it can happen that you make mistakes you wouldn't do otherwise, even for a progamer.
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He was in a bad mental state because he was throwing the game. Please take off the rose colored glasses and look at this for what it really is. This should be an article on the front page of TL right now.
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On March 25 2015 03:23 Charoisaur wrote:
i wouldn't say it's sure that the game was fixed. maybe MK was just in a bad mental state and somebody leaked the information.
On a bad day it can happen that you make mistakes you wouldn't do otherwise, even for a progamer.
I feel like you also could defend one guy whom at a given point in time is alone in a room with his ex GF whom he strongly hates, and points a gun to her face while yelling angrily. Then the lights are turned off, and 20 seconds later we see that the girl has been shot, and the guy has just left the room. Then you could go onto a defense of the guy saying that he was just messing around, and maybe he left the gun in front of her chair, and then walked out of the room. After that the girl realized she was depressed and wanted to commit suicide, and therefore took the gun and killed her self..
The point here is that with your logic you could make any thief and murder go free. In this situation the evidence so strongly indicates that MKP just threw the match.
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On March 25 2015 03:25 Nick_54 wrote:
He was in a bad mental state because he was throwing the game. Please take off the rose colored glasses and look at this for what it really is. This should be an article on the front page of TL right now.
That's what I'm wondering, are we just at the point where we forget about these irregularities moments after they happen?
I guess cuz KeSPA / Pinnacle aren't releasing official statements either there's not much for us to say...
What gets me is from the commentary this isn't even a never before seen Zerg all-in, so the 'flummoxed / totally surprised' excuse doesn't even work for how poorly MKP responded. They were talking about Symbol trying this and failing so you gotta assume this is something players are at least aware of being possible and adopt scouting patterns to it.
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On March 25 2015 03:34 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 03:25 Nick_54 wrote:
He was in a bad mental state because he was throwing the game. Please take off the rose colored glasses and look at this for what it really is. This should be an article on the front page of TL right now. That's what I'm wondering, are we just at the point where we forget about these irregularities moments after they happen? I guess cuz KeSPA / Pinnacle aren't releasing official statements either there's not much for us to say... What gets me is from the commentary this isn't even a never before seen Zerg all-in, so the 'flummoxed / totally surprised' excuse doesn't even work for how poorly MKP responded. They were talking about Symbol trying this and failing so you gotta assume this is something players are at least aware of being possible and adopt scouting patterns to it.
Both casters had no idea what was going on, ofc they won't call it matchfixing while being live, but i would be surprised if it didn't cross their minds.
What we need now is an article which covers this objectively.
Present all the evidence we have right now, explain the betting behind it and hopefully get enough attention that Kespa has to react.
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For 1$ set on ByuL, you would gain 1,09 $ in total back.
For 1% on MKP, you would get over 8$ in total back.
These are Odds, we talk about giving ByuL over MKP in a Bo1 over 90% winning chance. No WAY I say, just no way. And also not a whale bets so much one one Player "because he likes the name ByuL". He would have to set bets over an hour to achieve that kind of odds.
And when it comes to a game, there is also no way that this red, not moving dot, has not been seen anyway by MKP for over 1:30 of time. Hell he even did not react to this creep in his base till the message "base under attack" came into his ears. The cancelation of the 3rd cc is the moment he reacted.
Someone said, he would pretend the red dot is an overlord. If it would be an overlord, you would not see it trough the FOW, because an Overlord is a unit.
He even did not move his reaper out of the base but he knew there is no natural, not at gold, not in enemys natural not in his natural. He knew gas and pool was on a timing behind a hatch. So what the hell did his reapers do in his base instead of scouting or attacking. Speed was not there. And couldnt be there for a longer time.
If you focus on his camera, you see him moving the eyes to watch the minimap. What the hell. This is not like San-Dark thing, where you could bring up all stuff and things to say "everything usual". This is Saviour Style and I bet, (ouch, betting), that Kespa will not say anything to it. They lost 3 companys to betting once and maybe they will lose another 3 again. Most thing we could hear is some retirement news soon by questionable players. Till then, we have to circlejerk about it in TL, Richard L. will write an article about it right after the NASL article and the certain thread for this things happening is closed. And yeah then these people come up, telling me, that the player just had a bad day and someone bet more then his lifing income of a year due to he knew MKP had some small issues. Oh yeah.
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I don't get it, the return on investment is absolutely tiny for anyone betting on ByuL. Who would spend big money for a tiny gain, especially if a player could have a change of heart or something? Doesn't it usually work that one player is heavily favoured, they contact the favoured player and tell him to throw while they bet on the one with the odds stacked against him?
Also, MarineKing has stated he's had troubles with map vision before. We've seen some of the worst games in SC2 ever, we've even seen worse than this, I'm sure.
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On March 25 2015 02:26 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:22 darkscream wrote:
yikes
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does. Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
You realize that CS:GO actually had a matchfixing scandal not so long ago? And that the saviOr scandal didn't prevent BW from being prosperous? etc etc?
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On March 25 2015 02:26 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 02:22 darkscream wrote:
yikes
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does. Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
Dude just starting to use your brain before you post would be a huge benefit to this site.
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On March 25 2015 03:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:
I don't get it, the return on investment is absolutely tiny for anyone betting on ByuL. Who would spend big money for a tiny gain, especially if a player could have a change of heart or something? Doesn't it usually work that one player is heavily favoured, they contact the favoured player and tell him to throw while they bet on the one with the odds stacked against him?
Also, MarineKing has stated he's had troubles with map vision before. We've seen some of the worst games in SC2 ever, we've even seen worse than this, I'm sure.
Pay 1.000 to the Player.
Bet 100.000 on the Game
7.000$ Profit.
Amount of work: 2 Hours of bet placement.
Approaching players.
Paying Players.
Sounds like good work for me.
It is one thing to miss flying medivacs for 2-3 secs on the minimap. Thats trouble with map vision. Missing 60-90secs of a non moving red dot. Thats throwing.
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On March 25 2015 03:40 RPR_Tempest wrote:
I don't get it, the return on investment is absolutely tiny for anyone betting on ByuL. Who would spend big money for a tiny gain, especially if a player could have a change of heart or something? Doesn't it usually work that one player is heavily favoured, they contact the favoured player and tell him to throw while they bet on the one with the odds stacked against him?
Also, MarineKing has stated he's had troubles with map vision before. We've seen some of the worst games in SC2 ever, we've even seen worse than this, I'm sure.
The odds are so much in favor of ByuL because someone bet money at him winning. The bets are dynamic based on what people are betting on.
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Wow just watched the MK game... he already looks different the moment the game started. And after he lost he wasn't even sad like usual, just staring.
Not seeing that on the minimap is very very strange for a pro. Not using his reapers after scouting 1 base zerg is strange. Making a third cc is ridiculous. Then there's creep almost on top of his buildings and still the reapers are afk. Like what could he be focusing on? He doesn't even have a unit out on the map. Looks like very blatant match fixing to me. Or Marineking is on drugs.
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If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord." Also at this time he forgets about the back rocks, like we've seen countless players do in the past. I admit forgetting about the back rocks is less likely if you've been practicing and preparing for this map, but once you have hellions out it doesn't really matter much as long as you micro properly.
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player.
EDIT: Also, I really do not understand why people say his movements before and after the game are suspicious. They aren't in the slightest lmao. He doesn't look nervous or a bit pensive at all. He stays in the game for a long time, like he usually does (because he's upset), and the camera goes away from him for a while. Maybe he moved his head down and sighed a bit like usual whilst he was off-camera? Things to consider. There is absolutely no hard evidence here.
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On March 25 2015 03:59 RPR_Tempest wrote:
If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord."
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player.
He knows it's not a one base baneling all-in since he sees the pool timing. He has to know there's a hatchery out there somewhere.
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On March 25 2015 04:02 DJHelium wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2015 03:59 RPR_Tempest wrote:
If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord."
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player. He knows it's not a one base baneling all-in since he sees the pool timing. He has to know there's a hatchery out there somewhere.
Yes, he of course searches for the proxy hatchery but can find nothing, so he stops thinking SUPER logically and panics, thinking perhaps it's one base banelings.
I admit it's highly suspicious. I'm just trying to offer an alternate viewpoint here because it seems no one else will.
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On March 25 2015 03:59 RPR_Tempest wrote:
If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord." Also at this time he forgets about the back rocks, like we've seen countless players do in the past. I admit forgetting about the back rocks is less likely if you've been practicing and preparing for this map, but once you have hellions out it doesn't really matter much as long as you micro properly.
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player.
EDIT: Also, I really do not understand why people say his movements before and after the game are suspicious. They aren't in the slightest lmao. He doesn't look nervous or a bit pensive at all. He stays in the game for a long time, like he usually does (because he's upset), and the camera goes away from him for a while. Maybe he moved his head down and sighed a bit like usual whilst he was off-camera? Things to consider. There is absolutely no hard evidence here.
One-Base-Bane-Bust?
When the SCV has been there, the Gyser has only lost around 25 Gas and the pool was a definitly a "pool after hatch" timing. Also the rocks normaly arrend the first overlord position. So he cannot pretend just an Overlord (which you cant see through FOW!.Like he forget that or what?").
There are a ton of evidence right in front of you, did we see a different game? The betting odds where at a point never seen in an korean Bo1 before and BuyL and MKP cant be considered as Life against Semper. And maybe even that Bo1 wouldnt have to be considered with that odds at all, because it is still a Bo1.
You can say what you want, he saw this red dot, but pretendet to do not. The scouting info was "there is no natural, no gold natural but a hatch somewhere on the map"
This is not the kind of akward MKP thing, this is the kind of bronze to gold thing. He was under zero pressure in this game, reaper at home (where they should not be, because speed was way away and he knew that) helions not out yet. There was no other focus point then his one base.
If this evidence cant get harder for you, all prisions in the world would be empty.
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I doubt its match fixing. Just MarineKing going full MarineKing.
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I dunno. I watched the game, it sure is a fucking bad game from MK, probably the most terrible game of the month. Now a few things raise some concerns :
-from the beginning of the game, he looks kinda different than usual, I'd say stressed out, even the casters point it out. Additionally at 4:50 in game time he takes probably the deepest breath I've ever seen a progamer take in the first 5 minutes of a game.
-Obviously, the creep + spine is on his minimap for more than one ingame minute. That's like, huge, and it's hardly believable that he didn't see it.
-However, something is to be noted here. At 4:00 in-game time, he decides to build the CC in the wall. What are his available informations at that point? That ByuL is on one base, has pool + gas and didn't expand. He hasn't scouted the creep + spine yet. Why would you build a freaking CC while you know your opponent is doing 1 base shit? Because CCs are good to wall off against bane busts. Why would you try to do the best possible wall-off when you're throwing a game? Good question.
-Just after that, at ~4:05, he moves his reaper in range of the spine. A few seconds later, he decides to rush his wall-off by building a second depot at the wall, while he is at 20/27 in supply and has a CC in construction. Rushing this walloff also delays his factory by ~10 seconds. This still looks like he is responding to a one base bust. Now there are two solutions here :
-he saw the spine, identified it as a spine, knows what's coming, and try to make it look like he didn't see it -> game throwing
-he legit didn't saw it. Is it possible? Yes, for sure. Maru didn't saw Dark's nydus on his minimap at IEM Katowice, and that is recent, so I think that we can find many games with a player not seeing things on the minimap. Now what makes it strange in this game is that the time interval is really long.
-At ~5:50, you can see on his face that he seems legit surprised to see creep in his main. Obviously it may be fake.
So what can we conclude? Well, I have no idea.
Obviously, the fact that Pinnacle cancelled bets on this match, correlated with MK's shit play (note that ByuL's play was far from perfect either though ; apart from the discutable build choice, there was no reason not to build his spine a few hexes further so that a random SCV/terran unit wouldn't scout it), is frightening as to what may be going on in the Korean scene. But we've seen worse games than this.
Obviously, MK's play and attitude make no sense at all in this game. But his decisions never made much sense, apart from when he was at his peak.
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i just watched the game and i'd say it's just MK flopping lol (sorry lorning). The guy can show some brilliance at times and other times he shows utter stupidity.
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EPT
