★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (5)
21%
★★★- Good game (2)
8%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
24 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 1
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
1%
★★★- Good game (0)
0%
70 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 2
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
43%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
7 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 3
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
33%
★★★- Good game (0)
0%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 4
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
7 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Ace match
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
5 nydus. I waited it from soO when he played vs SkyHigh. You need to do just 2 or 3 nydus in different places and mech terran need to split his units. You can even not use them at all, just push him all in to the face.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (5)
21%
★★★- Good game (2)
8%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
24 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 1
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (5)
21%
★★★- Good game (2)
8%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
24 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 1
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Mech games generally don't tend to be turtlefests since that's a 100% loss for Zerg, so they try to break Terran etc. It just tends to be really boring because the fights are really onesided.
I will never understand players liking Mech in SC2. It's soo boring. And frustrating to play against as well.
On March 24 2015 19:13 KeksX wrote: Mech games generally don't tend to be turtlefests since that's a 100% loss for Zerg, so they try to break Terran etc. It just tends to be really boring because the fights are really onesided.
I will never understand players liking Mech in SC2. It's soo boring. And frustrating to play against as well.
Your bias is showing
seriously if it was 100% win, 100% terrans would play it.
On March 24 2015 19:13 KeksX wrote: Mech games generally don't tend to be turtlefests since that's a 100% loss for Zerg, so they try to break Terran etc. It just tends to be really boring because the fights are really onesided.
I will never understand players liking Mech in SC2. It's soo boring. And frustrating to play against as well.
Your bias is showing
seriously if it was 100% win, 100% terrans would play it.
what he said is that if both players sit back and do nothing, it's a loss for Zerg - which doesn't mean "mech is 100% win"
On March 24 2015 19:13 KeksX wrote: Mech games generally don't tend to be turtlefests since that's a 100% loss for Zerg, so they try to break Terran etc. It just tends to be really boring because the fights are really onesided.
I will never understand players liking Mech in SC2. It's soo boring. And frustrating to play against as well.
Your bias is showing
seriously if it was 100% win, 100% terrans would play it.
I'm saying it's 100% win if it's a turtlefest(i.e. no one attacking). Terrans lose to Zerg if they're succesfully breaking it, which is really hard and takes ages. Viper/Sporewalls, muta timings if Terran doesn't pay attention etc. Those are the things that beats mech. It's Terran's game to lose, not to win it.
Mech is definitely beatable, just super fucking boring.
Sc2 mech works the same way bw mech did, not as effective but still. Zerg vs mech mstches (jd vs light, sea, flash) were just as horrible to watch as this and yet it didnt get so much hate back then. Why?
Hydrakinglaser: this is gold league winter *** Kesai7: this just goes to show you Ghw0rg: never scout, always 3cc king, new name... Kesai7: never play LoL Hydrakinglaser: PL is so bad FailFish
You heard it here first guys, PL is literally gold league.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
1%
★★★- Good game (0)
0%
70 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 2
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Hydrakinglaser: this is gold league winter *** Kesai7: this just goes to show you Ghw0rg: never scout, always 3cc king, new name... Kesai7: never play LoL Hydrakinglaser: PL is so bad FailFish
You heard it here first guys, PL is literally gold league.
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
1%
★★★- Good game (0)
0%
70 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 2
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure Marineking doesn't use allied colours. Might have had something to do with it. Still brutal though. It was on the minimap....
On March 24 2015 19:22 KeksX wrote: Twitch chat showing it's superiority again
Hydrakinglaser: this is gold league winter *** Kesai7: this just goes to show you Ghw0rg: never scout, always 3cc king, new name... Kesai7: never play LoL Hydrakinglaser: PL is so bad FailFish
You heard it here first guys, PL is literally gold league.
They are right though in this case :DDD
No they're not, calling that Gold League is an insult to Gold League
On March 24 2015 19:25 jekku wrote: Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure Marineking doesn't use allied colours. Might have had something to do with it. Still brutal though. It was on the minimap....
It's a yellow dot. You can see a yellow dot on the minimap, whether you use allied colours or not.
On March 24 2015 19:25 jekku wrote: Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure Marineking doesn't use allied colours. Might have had something to do with it. Still brutal though. It was on the minimap....
you mean he doesnt use any colours or ....a minimap or ...eyes
On March 24 2015 19:25 jekku wrote: Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure Marineking doesn't use allied colours. Might have had something to do with it. Still brutal though. It was on the minimap....
It's a yellow dot. You can see a yellow dot on the minimap, whether you use allied colours or not.
If it's a yellow dot you can mistake it for a blue dot / minerals or somethings... If he uses allied colours, than it is a red dot... easier to see But as I said, he should have never gone 3cc vs no expo in the first place
Now that I have MarineKing on my anti there's so much schadenfreude watching him lose in such spectacular, disgusting fashion.
On March 24 2015 19:23 Pandemona wrote:
Poll: CJ vs MVP Game 2
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (53)
76%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (8)
11%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (8)
11%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
1%
★★★- Good game (0)
0%
70 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 2
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
All these sarcastic 5-star votes... never change, LR thread.
On March 24 2015 19:25 jekku wrote: Sad thing is, I'm pretty sure Marineking doesn't use allied colours. Might have had something to do with it. Still brutal though. It was on the minimap....
It's a yellow dot. You can see a yellow dot on the minimap, whether you use allied colours or not.
If it's a yellow dot you can mistake it for a blue dot / minerals or somethings... If he uses allied colours, than it is a red dot... easier to see But as I said, he should have never gone 3cc vs no expo in the first place
There are no minerals to the left of the backrocks on Expedition Lost. Shitty map awareness.
On March 24 2015 19:27 Lorning wrote: oh cmon he was just unlucky
this could happen to literally anyone =/=
Most players on that level check their minimap, you know.
He probably did and didn't notice cause he expected an all in, Thats why he kept the reapers in his base
Like I said; Shit is tense
did he also make a 3rd CC because he was expecting an all-in
but why did he keep the reapers in the main and didn't float his cc to the natural if he wasn't? Maybe he just saw that some timing expired and he thought he was fine, thus he could throw down a third.
On March 24 2015 19:27 Lorning wrote: oh cmon he was just unlucky
this could happen to literally anyone =/=
Most players on that level check their minimap, you know.
He probably did and didn't notice cause he expected an all in, Thats why he kept the reapers in his base
Like I said; Shit is tense
I agree about the fact that seeing no 2nd hatch is ultra stressfull and can make you go stupid mode, but he saw the timing of the pool, he knew it wasn't pool first, he checked the gold so he knew it was not gangnam zerg.
Did he simply forgot about the destructible rocks?
The number of people laughing/making fun of a player who is clearly not in a good place mentally right now is pretty disturbing. The guy clearly is dealing with something in his life that is bothering/distracting from his gameplay, and people have nothing better to do that bash him. Pretty sickening, even for the internet.
On March 24 2015 19:35 ZeratuLsc2 wrote: The number of people laughing/making fun of a player who is clearly not in a good place mentally right now is pretty disturbing. The guy clearly is dealing with something in his life that is bothering/distracting from his gameplay, and people have nothing better to do that bash him. Pretty sickening, even for the internet.
If. There. Is. Something. Like. That. Going. On. In. His. Life. It's. Up. To. Him. And. The. Coach. Not. To. Field. Him.
On March 24 2015 19:35 ZeratuLsc2 wrote: The number of people laughing/making fun of a player who is clearly not in a good place mentally right now is pretty disturbing. The guy clearly is dealing with something in his life that is bothering/distracting from his gameplay, and people have nothing better to do that bash him. Pretty sickening, even for the internet.
Speculating is another silly thing one can find on the internet
On March 24 2015 19:35 ZeratuLsc2 wrote: The number of people laughing/making fun of a player who is clearly not in a good place mentally right now is pretty disturbing. The guy clearly is dealing with something in his life that is bothering/distracting from his gameplay, and people have nothing better to do that bash him. Pretty sickening, even for the internet.
There's a difference between bashing a player, and bashing his play on a forum that he will never read. This is a spectator sport for entertainment, get off your high horse. I'm sure we all respect him as a human and want the best for him. That being said that game was fucking atrocious, one of the few cases that I can honestly say I would have played better than a pro-gamer.
I wasn't going to post here but I still... cannot even remotely comprehend what I just watched. If you're even around a semi-pro player in NA something like that would never even get to be as bad as it was for MK in that game. You might still take some damage, since it's one base and perhaps a tough push... But.. like.. it's one thing if you let him break the rocks and get up there.. but on the other hand when you have complete vision of it occurring.. while you are sitting in your base not microing anything... and then you get creep in your base.. and then proceed to make a 3rd cc and no bunkers... U CAN SEE IT(?)... I really... idk man >.>...
On March 24 2015 19:45 Calthrash wrote: When was the last time a SCV pull actually worked in a korean TvP, feels like it just gets rekt all the time these days
On March 24 2015 19:49 ilikeredheads wrote: if anything, that MKP game is great example of why you should never play with tunnel vision put him on your FPL
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1)
1%
★★★- Good game (0)
0%
70 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 2
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3)
43%
★- Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
7 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 3
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: CJ vs MVP Game 4
★- Do not see this game no matter what (4)
67%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (2)
33%
★★★- Good game (0)
0%
★★★★- Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
6 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Game 4
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: CJ vs MVP Ace match
★- Do not see this game no matter what (3)
43%
★★★- Good game (2)
29%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (2)
29%
★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (0)
0%
★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0)
0%
7 total votes
Your vote: CJ vs MVP Ace match
(Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what (Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★★★- Good game (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season (Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
CJ 3-0'ing opponents after opponents, AS IT SHOULD BE :D I think CJ is without doubts the best team currently in PL. Hopefully it will translate into being ProLeague champions in the end.
On March 24 2015 21:08 royalroadweed wrote: Its so hard to believe that marineking was in the finals of kespa cup last year.
It was Hot6ix Cup. And he played nothing but Protosses. Each of his games was a TvP, every single one. Clearly, he has a preferred MU that he barely ever gets in Proleague.
Edit: He's 2-0 against Protoss in Proleague, beating Dear and Stats no less.
!@#$%^&* that game was fishy for sure. MK was so blind.
The chances of MKP not seeing the Spine on the minimap is around 0.000001%.
It's very easy to lose on purpose without making it obvious, but unfortunately for MKP Byul went for a cheesy build that was scouted. I am happy to raise the pitchforks here, because there is absolutely no doubt that MKP was paid to lose the game!!!
Watching that MK game, I just don't know what to believe...MK either played one of the worst pro matches imaginable (how the fuck did he miss the spine/creep, even if he did why the fuck would you play greedy against a one base Zerg?????? Bunker, siege tank, supply depot by the rocks, no 3rd CC, any of these and he has a chance at holding but NOPE), either that or it was fixed? Either of these reasons would make me super sad....
Just looking at him, he didn't even collapse like he normally does at a tough loss (u know, arms crossed over head on keyboard style), he just looked dead inside, like emotionally drained. He really fucking needs some "mind control" as the Koreans put it, and to be benched for a week or two until (if) he recovers, imo
The match was blatantly fixed. There needs to be an investigation/reaction/punishment on this. Looks like the same types of things Savior used to pull back in the day.
how the !@#$%^&* did he miss the spine/creep, even if he did why the !@#$%^&
Nono, he didn't miss the spine. There is no way you can't miss it, but at the same time he made a build in such a way that he would instadie to an allin, and yes if he had played to win he would just have attacked it with the Reaper....
Looks like the same types of things Savior used to pull back in the day.
I think MKP was just extremely unlucky here. He got into a situation where the only way to lose was to make it apparent he was being matchfixed. Normally losing on purpose is pretty damn easy against pro players. All you gotta do is to have slightly suptimal builds/micro and you die. Here....... all he had to do was to not scout the spine and unfortunately he did.
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again
That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does.
Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again
That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does.
Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
MarineKing really looks distracted before the game and during early game. Wolf says "I don't think I've ever seen MarineKing look this way, ever."
At 4:30 youtube time, he's moving his reaper so he gets vision of hatchery. It's possible his camera is located way higher, since that's where his main is, but I have a hard time believing he doesn't see it there.
5:25 youtube time he really should notice, but takes him about 10 more seconds.
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again
That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does.
Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
Wow what a stupid thing to say
Some people are lucky I don't have a ban hammer of justice.
I rewatched the VOD to check something that bothered me the first time I saw it; the observer shows that MarineKing has vision of lots of creep in his main about 5 seconds before MK visibly reacts. Really weird. I really hope there's nothing to it but it does look rather suspicious.
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again
That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does.
Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
So the MarineKing game must be rigged right? Can't believe a progamer doesn't notice this red dot on the minimap for such a long time. And even in the early game when there aren't any distractions. O_o
In this specific case I think It's fair to call it for what it is, this game was fixed. Marineking is just not very good at hiding it since he's such a nervous wreck of a player. This was probably the first time he's done it in a televised match.
Pay on team MVP must be pretty weak for a player of his stature to resort to something like this, but then again after BW nothing surprises me anymore.
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again
That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does.
Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
On March 25 2015 03:04 Dodgin wrote: In this specific case I think It's fair to call it for what it is, this game was fixed. Marineking is just not very good at hiding it since he's such a nervous wreck of a player. This was probably the first time he's done it in a televised match.
Pay on team MVP must be pretty weak for a player of his stature to resort to something like this, but then again after BW nothing surprises me anymore.
Lol if it was actually fixed then in hindsight the match is hilarious in how MKP fails so hard in trying to fake it. "Okay, I see that spine building on the edge of my minimap... just play it cool... just play it cool... pretend I didn't see it. Oh shit, creep is in my base. Okay. Should I act surprised? Oh shit... I'm not reacting properly... Okay, let's fake some surprise right now! Shit... that was fishy... I reacted like 10 seconds after the creep was clearly in my vision... Uhh... Shit."
This was way to obvious: Hmm, Pool Gas timing way to late for no exe, so where is it? Scouts double Gold: Not here I mean, where should it been else then proxy.
What to do with the reapers: Let em chill in base. Because, hay, we could scout the proxy, be we must not do it.
And yes this "i saw this but i pretend to not see it" Sorry, there is a red dot on your minimap man. For 2 minutes. There is creep in your base, for 10 secounds. React?
We are at Saviour LvL and KESPA does not want to lose 3 big sponsors again, thats all.
i wouldn't say it's sure that the game was fixed. maybe MK was just in a bad mental state and somebody leaked the information. On a bad day it can happen that you make mistakes you wouldn't do otherwise, even for a progamer.
He was in a bad mental state because he was throwing the game. Please take off the rose colored glasses and look at this for what it really is. This should be an article on the front page of TL right now.
On March 25 2015 03:23 Charoisaur wrote: i wouldn't say it's sure that the game was fixed. maybe MK was just in a bad mental state and somebody leaked the information. On a bad day it can happen that you make mistakes you wouldn't do otherwise, even for a progamer.
I feel like you also could defend one guy whom at a given point in time is alone in a room with his ex GF whom he strongly hates, and points a gun to her face while yelling angrily. Then the lights are turned off, and 20 seconds later we see that the girl has been shot, and the guy has just left the room. Then you could go onto a defense of the guy saying that he was just messing around, and maybe he left the gun in front of her chair, and then walked out of the room. After that the girl realized she was depressed and wanted to commit suicide, and therefore took the gun and killed her self..
The point here is that with your logic you could make any thief and murder go free. In this situation the evidence so strongly indicates that MKP just threw the match.
On March 25 2015 03:25 Nick_54 wrote: He was in a bad mental state because he was throwing the game. Please take off the rose colored glasses and look at this for what it really is. This should be an article on the front page of TL right now.
That's what I'm wondering, are we just at the point where we forget about these irregularities moments after they happen?
I guess cuz KeSPA / Pinnacle aren't releasing official statements either there's not much for us to say...
What gets me is from the commentary this isn't even a never before seen Zerg all-in, so the 'flummoxed / totally surprised' excuse doesn't even work for how poorly MKP responded. They were talking about Symbol trying this and failing so you gotta assume this is something players are at least aware of being possible and adopt scouting patterns to it.
On March 25 2015 03:25 Nick_54 wrote: He was in a bad mental state because he was throwing the game. Please take off the rose colored glasses and look at this for what it really is. This should be an article on the front page of TL right now.
That's what I'm wondering, are we just at the point where we forget about these irregularities moments after they happen?
I guess cuz KeSPA / Pinnacle aren't releasing official statements either there's not much for us to say...
What gets me is from the commentary this isn't even a never before seen Zerg all-in, so the 'flummoxed / totally surprised' excuse doesn't even work for how poorly MKP responded. They were talking about Symbol trying this and failing so you gotta assume this is something players are at least aware of being possible and adopt scouting patterns to it.
Both casters had no idea what was going on, ofc they won't call it matchfixing while being live, but i would be surprised if it didn't cross their minds. What we need now is an article which covers this objectively. Present all the evidence we have right now, explain the betting behind it and hopefully get enough attention that Kespa has to react.
For 1$ set on ByuL, you would gain 1,09 $ in total back. For 1% on MKP, you would get over 8$ in total back.
These are Odds, we talk about giving ByuL over MKP in a Bo1 over 90% winning chance. No WAY I say, just no way. And also not a whale bets so much one one Player "because he likes the name ByuL". He would have to set bets over an hour to achieve that kind of odds.
And when it comes to a game, there is also no way that this red, not moving dot, has not been seen anyway by MKP for over 1:30 of time. Hell he even did not react to this creep in his base till the message "base under attack" came into his ears. The cancelation of the 3rd cc is the moment he reacted. Someone said, he would pretend the red dot is an overlord. If it would be an overlord, you would not see it trough the FOW, because an Overlord is a unit. He even did not move his reaper out of the base but he knew there is no natural, not at gold, not in enemys natural not in his natural. He knew gas and pool was on a timing behind a hatch. So what the hell did his reapers do in his base instead of scouting or attacking. Speed was not there. And couldnt be there for a longer time.
If you focus on his camera, you see him moving the eyes to watch the minimap. What the hell. This is not like San-Dark thing, where you could bring up all stuff and things to say "everything usual". This is Saviour Style and I bet, (ouch, betting), that Kespa will not say anything to it. They lost 3 companys to betting once and maybe they will lose another 3 again. Most thing we could hear is some retirement news soon by questionable players. Till then, we have to circlejerk about it in TL, Richard L. will write an article about it right after the NASL article and the certain thread for this things happening is closed. And yeah then these people come up, telling me, that the player just had a bad day and someone bet more then his lifing income of a year due to he knew MKP had some small issues. Oh yeah.
I don't get it, the return on investment is absolutely tiny for anyone betting on ByuL. Who would spend big money for a tiny gain, especially if a player could have a change of heart or something? Doesn't it usually work that one player is heavily favoured, they contact the favoured player and tell him to throw while they bet on the one with the odds stacked against him?
Also, MarineKing has stated he's had troubles with map vision before. We've seen some of the worst games in SC2 ever, we've even seen worse than this, I'm sure.
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again
That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does.
Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
You realize that CS:GO actually had a matchfixing scandal not so long ago? And that the saviOr scandal didn't prevent BW from being prosperous? etc etc?
here i was thinking mk just played too much other games the night prior.. those betting lines though....
sc has it rough enough, its really sad these sorts of things are coming up again
That's actually healthy for the scene. No serious investor is going to touch SC2 any more, at any rate, when games like Dota, LoL, CS:Go, Hearthstone and now even Minecraft draw more eyes than SC2 does.
Like it or not, shady Korean gamblers are better than now viewers at all.
Dude just starting to use your brain before you post would be a huge benefit to this site.
On March 25 2015 03:40 RPR_Tempest wrote: I don't get it, the return on investment is absolutely tiny for anyone betting on ByuL. Who would spend big money for a tiny gain, especially if a player could have a change of heart or something? Doesn't it usually work that one player is heavily favoured, they contact the favoured player and tell him to throw while they bet on the one with the odds stacked against him?
Also, MarineKing has stated he's had troubles with map vision before. We've seen some of the worst games in SC2 ever, we've even seen worse than this, I'm sure.
Pay 1.000 to the Player. Bet 100.000 on the Game
7.000$ Profit. Amount of work: 2 Hours of bet placement. Approaching players. Paying Players.
Sounds like good work for me.
It is one thing to miss flying medivacs for 2-3 secs on the minimap. Thats trouble with map vision. Missing 60-90secs of a non moving red dot. Thats throwing.
On March 25 2015 03:40 RPR_Tempest wrote: I don't get it, the return on investment is absolutely tiny for anyone betting on ByuL. Who would spend big money for a tiny gain, especially if a player could have a change of heart or something? Doesn't it usually work that one player is heavily favoured, they contact the favoured player and tell him to throw while they bet on the one with the odds stacked against him?
Also, MarineKing has stated he's had troubles with map vision before. We've seen some of the worst games in SC2 ever, we've even seen worse than this, I'm sure.
The odds are so much in favor of ByuL because someone bet money at him winning. The bets are dynamic based on what people are betting on.
Wow just watched the MK game... he already looks different the moment the game started. And after he lost he wasn't even sad like usual, just staring.
Not seeing that on the minimap is very very strange for a pro. Not using his reapers after scouting 1 base zerg is strange. Making a third cc is ridiculous. Then there's creep almost on top of his buildings and still the reapers are afk. Like what could he be focusing on? He doesn't even have a unit out on the map. Looks like very blatant match fixing to me. Or Marineking is on drugs.
If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord." Also at this time he forgets about the back rocks, like we've seen countless players do in the past. I admit forgetting about the back rocks is less likely if you've been practicing and preparing for this map, but once you have hellions out it doesn't really matter much as long as you micro properly.
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player.
EDIT: Also, I really do not understand why people say his movements before and after the game are suspicious. They aren't in the slightest lmao. He doesn't look nervous or a bit pensive at all. He stays in the game for a long time, like he usually does (because he's upset), and the camera goes away from him for a while. Maybe he moved his head down and sighed a bit like usual whilst he was off-camera? Things to consider. There is absolutely no hard evidence here.
On March 25 2015 03:59 RPR_Tempest wrote: If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord."
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player.
He knows it's not a one base baneling all-in since he sees the pool timing. He has to know there's a hatchery out there somewhere.
On March 25 2015 03:59 RPR_Tempest wrote: If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord."
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player.
He knows it's not a one base baneling all-in since he sees the pool timing. He has to know there's a hatchery out there somewhere.
Yes, he of course searches for the proxy hatchery but can find nothing, so he stops thinking SUPER logically and panics, thinking perhaps it's one base banelings.
I admit it's highly suspicious. I'm just trying to offer an alternate viewpoint here because it seems no one else will.
On March 25 2015 03:59 RPR_Tempest wrote: If you'll notice, MarineKing's build (factory before cc and rushing out hellions whilst keeping reapers at home) is actually a fairly perfect response to a one base baneling all-in. We've seen someone (I think it was soO or DRG? Maybe both?) do these vs Terran in the last couple of months. MarineKing sees the lack of natural with gas mining and assumes it to be one base bane bust. Speed could finish any moment now, hence why his reaper is at home, he is looking at his SCVs or fuckin whatever, literally anything else, when his reaper sees the spine. From there, MarineKing sees a dot on his minimap, assuming it to be an overlord, ready in position for a scout around 6 minutes. Such things are very common in pretty much that exact position. Now, perhaps MarineKing should realize that you can't see overlords in fog of war, but you don't tend to think too hard about things like that when you're in game. "Oh, a blip on the map in a normal overlord location, must be an overlord." Also at this time he forgets about the back rocks, like we've seen countless players do in the past. I admit forgetting about the back rocks is less likely if you've been practicing and preparing for this map, but once you have hellions out it doesn't really matter much as long as you micro properly.
As for why he gets the 3rd cc, it's fucking MarineKing. Were it literally any other Terran player in the world, you might have a point there. But his whole career MarineKing has been a low ground cc first and fast 3 cc kind of player.
EDIT: Also, I really do not understand why people say his movements before and after the game are suspicious. They aren't in the slightest lmao. He doesn't look nervous or a bit pensive at all. He stays in the game for a long time, like he usually does (because he's upset), and the camera goes away from him for a while. Maybe he moved his head down and sighed a bit like usual whilst he was off-camera? Things to consider. There is absolutely no hard evidence here.
One-Base-Bane-Bust? When the SCV has been there, the Gyser has only lost around 25 Gas and the pool was a definitly a "pool after hatch" timing. Also the rocks normaly arrend the first overlord position. So he cannot pretend just an Overlord (which you cant see through FOW!.Like he forget that or what?"). There are a ton of evidence right in front of you, did we see a different game? The betting odds where at a point never seen in an korean Bo1 before and BuyL and MKP cant be considered as Life against Semper. And maybe even that Bo1 wouldnt have to be considered with that odds at all, because it is still a Bo1. You can say what you want, he saw this red dot, but pretendet to do not. The scouting info was "there is no natural, no gold natural but a hatch somewhere on the map" This is not the kind of akward MKP thing, this is the kind of bronze to gold thing. He was under zero pressure in this game, reaper at home (where they should not be, because speed was way away and he knew that) helions not out yet. There was no other focus point then his one base. If this evidence cant get harder for you, all prisions in the world would be empty.
I dunno. I watched the game, it sure is a fucking bad game from MK, probably the most terrible game of the month. Now a few things raise some concerns : -from the beginning of the game, he looks kinda different than usual, I'd say stressed out, even the casters point it out. Additionally at 4:50 in game time he takes probably the deepest breath I've ever seen a progamer take in the first 5 minutes of a game. -Obviously, the creep + spine is on his minimap for more than one ingame minute. That's like, huge, and it's hardly believable that he didn't see it. -However, something is to be noted here. At 4:00 in-game time, he decides to build the CC in the wall. What are his available informations at that point? That ByuL is on one base, has pool + gas and didn't expand. He hasn't scouted the creep + spine yet. Why would you build a freaking CC while you know your opponent is doing 1 base shit? Because CCs are good to wall off against bane busts. Why would you try to do the best possible wall-off when you're throwing a game? Good question. -Just after that, at ~4:05, he moves his reaper in range of the spine. A few seconds later, he decides to rush his wall-off by building a second depot at the wall, while he is at 20/27 in supply and has a CC in construction. Rushing this walloff also delays his factory by ~10 seconds. This still looks like he is responding to a one base bust. Now there are two solutions here : -he saw the spine, identified it as a spine, knows what's coming, and try to make it look like he didn't see it -> game throwing -he legit didn't saw it. Is it possible? Yes, for sure. Maru didn't saw Dark's nydus on his minimap at IEM Katowice, and that is recent, so I think that we can find many games with a player not seeing things on the minimap. Now what makes it strange in this game is that the time interval is really long. -At ~5:50, you can see on his face that he seems legit surprised to see creep in his main. Obviously it may be fake.
So what can we conclude? Well, I have no idea. Obviously, the fact that Pinnacle cancelled bets on this match, correlated with MK's shit play (note that ByuL's play was far from perfect either though ; apart from the discutable build choice, there was no reason not to build his spine a few hexes further so that a random SCV/terran unit wouldn't scout it), is frightening as to what may be going on in the Korean scene. But we've seen worse games than this. Obviously, MK's play and attitude make no sense at all in this game. But his decisions never made much sense, apart from when he was at his peak.
i just watched the game and i'd say it's just MK flopping lol (sorry lorning). The guy can show some brilliance at times and other times he shows utter stupidity.
On March 25 2015 04:30 OtherWorld wrote: From the beginning of the game, he looks kinda different than usual, I'd say stressed out, even the casters point it out.
-he legit didn't saw it. Is it possible? Yes, for sure. Maru didn't saw Dark's nydus on his minimap at IEM Katowice, and that is recent, so I think that we can find many games with a player not seeing things on the minimap.
I seriously don't see what people are talking about when they say MarineKing looks stressed. He looks completely normal...
And yeah, Maru not seeing Dark's nydus that was in plain view (at least I think it was Dark vs Maru. It was on Overgrowth, right?) for it's entire duration and still going up is another mistake very similar to the one MarineKing makes here. I've legit seen Platinums pick up on nyduses in their base instantly that are at the edge of their vision. Silly mistakes do happen.
The Nydus argument is maybe a good analogy. Missed Nydus's seem to happen a lot more than they should.
Innovation missed a Nydus literally in the middle of his base against Symbol.
IntotheRainbow also missed an inbase Nydus against Fruitdealer in the first GSL finals.
But in both cases they were busy multitasking, which MKP wasn't. What was Maru during while the needs went up?
The thing that bugs me about this game is MKP's scouting pattern. He knew to look for a proxy hatch. He scouts both golds, but not the actual proxy location which was used by Symbol in a previous game. And this despite having two reapers in his base that he freely moves into the natural and back (but not behind the rocks).
On March 25 2015 04:30 OtherWorld wrote: From the beginning of the game, he looks kinda different than usual, I'd say stressed out, even the casters point it out.
-he legit didn't saw it. Is it possible? Yes, for sure. Maru didn't saw Dark's nydus on his minimap at IEM Katowice, and that is recent, so I think that we can find many games with a player not seeing things on the minimap.
I seriously don't see what people are talking about when they say MarineKing looks stressed. He looks completely normal...
And yeah, Maru not seeing Dark's nydus that was in plain view (at least I think it was Dark vs Maru. It was on Overgrowth, right?) for it's entire duration and still going up is another mistake very similar to the one MarineKing makes here. I've legit seen Platinums pick up on nyduses in their base instantly that are at the edge of their vision. Silly mistakes do happen.
Look at the player presentation part before the game starts ; he looks somewhere between tired and stressed ; he actively does things with his left hand on the keyboard ; and his body is shaking, probably because he is shaking his leg out of excitation/stress. Look at the same scene from last week's MK vs Rogue. He looks way less tired/stressed, he looks calm, doesn't do anything with his left hand, does not shake. Look at the same scene from MK vs Reality the week before. He looks just like he did vs Rogue : calm, no left hand action, no shaking. Look at the same scene from MK vs Leenock the first week of R2. He looks less calm than the two following weeks, possibly because it's the first match of R2, he even looks nervous and pensive, but doesn't look stressed, excited ; no left hand action ; no shaking. Is that indicative of any kind of matchfixing? Obviously not. However it does indicate that his mental state was different from the previous week (tbh he looks pretty ill to me, this blend of looking tired and void yet excited), which may account for his terrible game today.
On March 25 2015 04:44 Wuster wrote: The Nydus argument is maybe a good analogy. Missed Nydus's seem to happen a lot more than they should.
Innovation missed a Nydus literally in the middle of his base against Symbol.
IntotheRainbow also missed an inbase Nydus against Fruitdealer in the first GSL finals.
But in both cases they were busy multitasking, which MKP wasn't. What was Maru during while the needs went up?
The thing that bugs me about this game is MKP's scouting pattern. He knew to look for a proxy hatch. He scouts both golds, but not the actual proxy location which was used by Symbol in a previous game. And this despite having two reapers in his base that he freely moves into the natural and back (but not behind the rocks).
Actually I think that the fact that MK wasn't busy plays in his favor. He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often. I agree about the scouting pattern though, but well some players aren't very good and that's all.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often.
But he did though... Check his eye movement between 4:53 and 4:54... He is glancing at the bottom left side of the screen, and any decent player is simply (out of habit) frequently looking at the minimap.
He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often.
But he did though... Check his eye movement between 4:34 and 4:35... He is glancing at the bottom left side of the screen, and any decent player is simply (out of habit) frequently looking at the minimap.
That's true, and it seems difficult to argue against that. But then again look at Maru vs Dark at IEM Katowice, I can't believe that Maru didn't look at the minimap during 20 whole in game seconds. And MarineKing is a nervous wreck, if he was scared of an all-in he is capable of looking at the minimap by reflex but the connection between "red dot" and "ennemy building" just wasn't made.
I didn't watch the Maru - Dark game at IEM, what was going on when the Nydus was building?
In the two cases I brought up: Innovation - Symbol, Symbol was posturing between two pathsl with roaches which forced Inno to move his army back and forth in response Rainbow - Fruitdealer, Rainbow was executing a tank cliff drop against Fruitdealer's gold base so was doing a lot of micro there
He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often.
But he did though... Check his eye movement between 4:34 and 4:35... He is glancing at the bottom left side of the screen, and any decent player is simply (out of habit) frequently looking at the minimap.
That's true, and it seems difficult to argue against that. But then again look at Maru vs Dark at IEM Katowice, I can't believe that Maru didn't look at the minimap during 20 whole in game seconds. And MarineKing is a nervous wreck, if he was scared of an all-in he is capable of looking at the minimap by reflex but the connection between "red dot" and "ennemy building" just wasn't made.
Can you link me to the Maru vs Dark game with clock?
He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often.
But he did though... Check his eye movement between 4:34 and 4:35... He is glancing at the bottom left side of the screen, and any decent player is simply (out of habit) frequently looking at the minimap.
That's true, and it seems difficult to argue against that. But then again look at Maru vs Dark at IEM Katowice, I can't believe that Maru didn't look at the minimap during 20 whole in game seconds. And MarineKing is a nervous wreck, if he was scared of an all-in he is capable of looking at the minimap by reflex but the connection between "red dot" and "ennemy building" just wasn't made.
Can you link me to the Maru vs Dark game with clock?
Here :
Timestamp is at 8:30 into the game ; nydus starts building at 8:47/48 according to the minimap indicator ; Nydus finishes at 9:07 ; Maru reacts at ~9:10.
edit : considering MK's attitude during the game vs ByuL I wonder if he wasn't ill. That would explain that he could look at the minimap without reacting.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often.
But he did though... Check his eye movement between 4:34 and 4:35... He is glancing at the bottom left side of the screen, and any decent player is simply (out of habit) frequently looking at the minimap.
That's true, and it seems difficult to argue against that. But then again look at Maru vs Dark at IEM Katowice, I can't believe that Maru didn't look at the minimap during 20 whole in game seconds. And MarineKing is a nervous wreck, if he was scared of an all-in he is capable of looking at the minimap by reflex but the connection between "red dot" and "ennemy building" just wasn't made.
Can you link me to the Maru vs Dark game with clock?
edit : considering MK's attitude during the game vs ByuL I wonder if he wasn't ill. That would explain that he could look at the minimap without reacting.
No it wouldn't explain anything. How ill do you have to be to make such mistakes as a progamer? Sry but all your arguments you made in defense of MKP² make no sense at all imo
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often.
But he did though... Check his eye movement between 4:34 and 4:35... He is glancing at the bottom left side of the screen, and any decent player is simply (out of habit) frequently looking at the minimap.
That's true, and it seems difficult to argue against that. But then again look at Maru vs Dark at IEM Katowice, I can't believe that Maru didn't look at the minimap during 20 whole in game seconds. And MarineKing is a nervous wreck, if he was scared of an all-in he is capable of looking at the minimap by reflex but the connection between "red dot" and "ennemy building" just wasn't made.
Can you link me to the Maru vs Dark game with clock?
edit : considering MK's attitude during the game vs ByuL I wonder if he wasn't ill. That would explain that he could look at the minimap without reacting.
No it wouldn't explain anything. How ill do you have to be to make such mistakes as a progamer? Sry but all your arguments you made in defense of MKP² make no sense at all imo
I didn't make any arguments but mere observations, I'm unsure about what to think currently. As for the illness thing, well here it is in short : minimap awareness consists of two things, looking often at the minimap (which is not a problem for every single Korean progamer who gets to play at PL level, I'm sure of that), and having enough focus/awareness so that what you see provokes a reaction in your brain. It probably happened to you, as it happened to everyone, to see something that should have warranted attention, but you didn't have enough focus to react accordingly.
Now progamers are trained to have an exceptional awareness of the minimap, we can all agree on that. However, it doesn't seem unlikely to me at all that a simple heavy headache could cause an important loss of focus and awareness (additionally the minimap is small, a dot on it is even smaller), which would explain that he looked at the minimap but didn't react until it was really, really obvious. Sometimes your brain is hazy and connections just don't happen. So to answer your question, a progamer probably doesn't have to be that ill to have his decision making and focus affected ; the level of focus a game like SC2 requires is very high. I might add that in the eventuality that he was on painkillers, this probably didn't help him to make senseful decisions and to have good awareness.
I think that this would possibly get along my observation that his behavior and looks at the start of the game is different from what he displayed the previous weeks.
However I do agree that even with this the game still looks sketchy. I'm trying to find possible and coherent explanations, that's all.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
The most suspicious game I remember ever seeing, and crazy betting odds?
Shit's looking pretty grim here, MK. I do believe this will be the tipping point for something to happen. Maybe MarineKing was just taking one for the team, letting everyone know that there was matchfixing going on!
Oh I suppose this could have been posted in the new thread. Oh well.
Timestamp is at 8:30 into the game ; nydus starts building at 8:47/48 according to the minimap indicator ; Nydus finishes at 9:07 ; Maru reacts at ~9:10.
Yeh so in this situation it is clear that Maru is occupied microing Banshee's (or was occupied and needs to get back to macro after harassing). It's still bad by Maru, but stuff like that happens.
I think when we saw MKP, everyone just had their mind blown that MKP didn't see it. Wolf repeated 4 times in a row "I can't believe it". What happened there was just of a different caliber than anything seen before.
Timestamp is at 8:30 into the game ; nydus starts building at 8:47/48 according to the minimap indicator ; Nydus finishes at 9:07 ; Maru reacts at ~9:10.
Yeh so in this situation it is clear that Maru is occupied microing Banshee's (or was occupied and needs to get back to macro after harassing). It's still bad by Maru, but stuff like that happens.
I think when we saw MKP, everyone just had their mind blown that MKP didn't see it. Wolf repeated 4 times in a row "I can't believe it". What happened there was just of a different caliber than anything seen before.
It's true. It isn't enough to incriminate him, though.
Not seeing a nydus at 8.30 is way different than not seeing a proxy spinecrawler at 4 mins when you have nothing better to do AND you know zerg is doing something weird. He was just doing nothing, no units outside his base, all his units/buildings practically fit in one screen. It's more fishy than the ocean.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 04:55 Zealously wrote: [quote] The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
Sangho's situation being repeated is what I'm so afraid of.
Social media imo has damn near killed journalism and what it stands for. I applaud the decision to not jump to conclusions so quickly.
If anything this situation shows that silence is bad. People will believe what they want no matter what. If there is a trusted source which informs people, this might change though. In no way this incident shows that being silent and let people form their own opinions based on rumors is a good thing.
MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
It looks bad. But you can't headshot somebody's career because "that one match seemed pretty fishy".
I'm confident that people with the proper authority and resources have noticed this and will investigate. For now, in my eyes, he's innocent until proven guilty. I especially agree with the decision to not publish an article to the front page of TL. There's no way to be fair to MKP when we are only working off speculation.
토쟁이 쓰레기들은 공감 못하겠지... 프로게이머라는 직업에 붙은 프로라는 말... 대다수 어렸을적부터 반대를 무릎쓰고 꿈꿔왔던, 간절히 바랬기에 갖은 노력을 해서 얻어진 타이틀 프로게이머 우린 그것에 자부심을 가져서 정말 반복되고 지치고 힘든 생활을 버틴다 너네같이 꿈없고 물흘러가듯이 살다가 가십거리로, 우연히 불법토토로 알게된 우리들에게 욕할 자격이 없다 주어진 한경기를 위해 자나깨나 미친듯이 생각하고 동료들과 토론하고 준비하고 해야 얻어질수있는 값진 승리 너희같은 하류들은 평생 살아도 모르겠지 진선수들에게 조작거리는게 한심하고 가엾다 너넨 평생 모를테니까 가슴뛰는 그 승리의 성취감을 ㅎㅎ
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
On March 25 2015 08:04 ricecake wrote: It looks bad. But you can't headshot somebody's career because "that one match seemed pretty fishy".
I'm confident that people with the proper authority and resources have noticed this and will investigate. For now, in my eyes, he's innocent until proven guilty. I especially agree with the decision to not publish an article to the front page of TL. There's no way to be fair to MKP when we are only working off speculation.
The only ones speculating at this point are people who defend mkp. How could he possibly miss the spinecrawler on his minimap? Why didn't he use his reapers? We have facts about the game (he had vision of enemy structures on his minimap), some people draw conclusions which say it was matchfixing (and no, nobody says so cause of the game alone, we also have pinnacle voiding a bet), others try to defend him with assumptions which are unlikely as fuck. It simply is no assumption that he missed the dot on his minimap, it happened. It is no assumption that this never should happen (it was on his minimap for a very long time). The only assumptions happening in this thread are people searching for solutions which defend mkp (and the korean sc2 scene). It also is no assumption that pinnacle voided the bet cause of strange line movements. We literally know the odds of both players which lead to this action. They were like 90% for Byul to win this match. How can this happen? 1. Matchfixing (we have 2 pretty strong facts, here evidence, which makes this pretty likely) 2. some other assumptions which have no evidence at all
We will never have 100% proof of anything, it's all about possibilities and their probabilities. At this point matchfixing is more likely (no obviously not 100%, but it will never be 100%)
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.
Waxangel translated the post MK made on his Facebook:
"Gambler trash couldn't possibly know... What the "pro" in "progamer" means... Most of us had to go against disapproval from our parents since we were young, and we earned the title of Progamer because we wanted it that much and worked that hard for it. It's our pride in that title that lets us live through repetitive and hard lives. People like you who don't have any dreams and pass through life like water -- who come to know of us through illegal betting -- you don't have any right to gossip about or insult us. For a single game, waking and sleeping, we wrack our brains like crazy, planning and discussing with our teammates -- that's what you need to win a precious victory. Losers like you wouldn't know that for your entire lives. It's pathetic how you say players who lose are fixing matches. Because you guys will never know what it feels, that heart-pounding satisfaction when you win."
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.
100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact. It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all. We have proof that people got offers to throw matches. We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady. We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.
What exactly needs to happen additional to that, so you can accept that it is enough to worry and assume matchfixing is going on? Nobody of us WANTS to be right about this. Sc2 is my favorite esports, i love the korean scene. But that shouldn't influence my opinion about all of this. It looks like it influences yours though (i don't wanna be offensive, but that's the impression i got so far) Rekrul posted something btw:
On March 25 2015 08:08 Rekrul wrote: facts:
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie
2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)
3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea
Obviously that is just one more "accusation" , but i guess it is at least no noname forum user
I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.
You're distorting the meaning of innocent-until-proven guilty, which is a legal concept, into a tool to dismiss any sort of behavior, no matter how suspicious. Standards of guilt for the law are different than for real-life situations, and furthermore, ending MK's SC2 career is not like throwing him in prison. He has a career by the grace of the community and if he's obviously cheating then I have no sympathy and he should become an outcast. And hopefully enough people will be in support of this to make it happen.
On March 25 2015 08:40 Zealously wrote: I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.
Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect?
"Gambler trash couldn't possibly know... What the "pro" in "progamer" means... Most of us had to go against disapproval from our parents since we were young, and we earned the title of Progamer because we wanted it that much and worked that hard for it. It's our pride in that title that lets us live through repetitive and hard lives. People like you who don't have any dreams and pass through life like water -- who come to know of us through illegal betting -- you don't have any right to gossip about or insult us. For a single game, waking and sleeping, we wrack our brains like crazy, planning and discussing with our teammates -- that's what you need to win a precious victory. Losers like you wouldn't know that for your entire lives. It's pathetic how you say players who lose are fixing matches. Because you guys will never know what it feels, that heart-pounding satisfaction when you win."
Sadly this doesn't tell us anything... Saviour fucking looked in Coach Cho's eyes and told his father-like figure that he didn't do it. Hell, herO could be a matchfixer for all we know and we don't know it...
It's sad stuff and I really hope we get that article that should have been released a while ago...
MKP's play made ZERO sense and there no possible way anyone can argue that MKP did not see that spine on his mini map. No way in hell he didn't see that
On March 25 2015 08:40 Zealously wrote: I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.
Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect?
We have to be careful not to conflate two different issues. The first issue is what sort of opinion are we entitled to hold regarding what MarineKing did or did not do. On that, I agree that innocent until proven guilty is not necessarily the standard that you apply -- that comes into play when you are trying to convict someone of criminal behavior. It doesn't mean that you can't harbor an opinion until or unless the available evidence meets that standard.
But what Zealously is talking about is whether TL should do some sort of front page reporting on this issue. With respect to that, I totally agree that unless the reporting can be done with the highest level of accuracy and integrity -- which would require a tremendous amount of work and specialized training -- it can end up doing more harm than good. The TL staff are damn good at what they do but they are not trained investigative journalists, and we should not lay that responsibility at their feet. Not when the stakes are as high as potentially ending someone's career. Just look at what Rolling Stone did with the UVA rape case for an example of what bad investigative journalism can do.
On March 25 2015 08:40 Zealously wrote: I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.
Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect?
That's a bad analogy. You may be the main suspect if you're being tried yes but the burden of proof is still on the accusers to say he did it. I'm not even saying MK didn't fix the game and it doesn't warrant an investigation, it does and it should be but so many posters are acting like MK's judge, jury and executioner based on circumstantial evidence at best.
Should he have seen the spine? Of course
Did he? Noone knows. How can you say "Of course he saw it". Were you in the booth with him? Did you hack Kespa's comps and see his view? No. And demanding TL Staff post an article based on that when they do have a reputation to uphold is shady as fuck.
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.
100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact. It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all. We have proof that people got offers to throw matches. We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady. We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.
90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it. We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good. But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come.
I am going with the flow, this is shady as fuck. MKP's build, his reaper control, this "excessively surprised" face when he sees the creep, the betting line. There is no proof, but what in France would be called an "array of presumption" (faisceau de présomptions) which would likely be sufficient to hand a judgment.
However, as much as I like Rekrul for his uncovering of BW's matchfixing, he has also been completely wrong on other topics (I would really like to find what that story was, but I can't find it. Anyone can help?), so take what he says with a grain of salt instead of just stating "If Rekrul says it, it's true"
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.
100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact. It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all. We have proof that people got offers to throw matches. We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady. We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.
90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it. We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good. But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come.
This was 9 months ago so you may have forgotten about it. KeSPA followed up saying this wasn't an isolated incident even.
This is ignoring the entire WCS EU mess last season where two players openly negotiated how much money for throwing a game (of course one side claimed to be joking afterwards).
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.
100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact. It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all. We have proof that people got offers to throw matches. We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady. We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.
90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it. We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good. But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come.
This was 9 months ago so you may have forgotten about it. KeSPA followed up saying this wasn't an isolated incident even.
This is ignoring the entire WCS EU mess last season where two players openly negotiated how much money for throwing a game (of course one side claimed to be joking afterwards).
This evidence isn't about the game we're talking about though. It also happened in a different context than ProLeague, and considering the use of FireCake's name + the matchfixer wanting the theorically inferior player to win + the fact that it happened in a foreign tournament, I think that this is more of a random EU/AM guy wanting to matchfix to make EZ money than an organized network of matchfixers like what is probably happening in Korea currently.
I wasn't sure what context you wanted. But note that KeSPA never said what context people were approaching their players, just cryptically saying that these offers were 'increasing'. And nothing ever came of that. Do you really think people are going to stop when on one's actually been caught doing this?
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote: Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote: Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
No we don't lack the evidence. There were shady line movements and then MKP lost in the most stupid way imaginable. The connection is already there. What exactly do you want? What exactly is this proof people still seem to want? The evidence is there, people have to react NOW. Do i want MKP be banned for this evidence? No probably not. Do i want Kespa to make a statement, yes absolutely. There simply won't be any proof if we just say "hey it might be a coincidence", people will forget about it and that's it. I simply don't understand how people think it is more likely that MKP played like bronze league player cause he was ill (i guess he almost died) just at the time when pinnacle voids exactly that bet. How does this make any sense?
On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote: Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
Well the Solar thing being brought up, Welmu's post in the Pinnacle thread, as well as well known community members (TB, Rekrul) that players were offered money to throw (note that this is no proof of anything obviously). edit : oh wait, maybe you meant that maybe they are not offered money to throw but something else? Well if it's not money but still something that has to do with money (material goods, services,...) it's the same, and the other possibility is that they are being blackmailed into throwing. That's not the same as being offered money, but the issue is the same.
On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote: Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote: Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
Well the Solar thing being brought up, Welmu's post in the Pinnacle thread, as well as well known community members (TB, Rekrul) that players were offered money to throw (note that this is no proof of anything obviously). edit : oh wait, maybe you meant that maybe they are not offered money to throw but something else? Well if it's not money but still something that has to do with money (material goods, services,...) it's the same, and the other possibility is that they are being blackmailed into throwing. That's not the same as being offered money, but the issue is the same.
given your other posts though, how does any of that count as solid evidence? I think if you applied your logic to all of this, you'd have to say there's no reason to think anything is going on at all.
Point being, if you can accept that people are being offered to fix matches based on this evidence, why can't you accept that matches are being fixed?
On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote: Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
Well the Solar thing being brought up, Welmu's post in the Pinnacle thread, as well as well known community members (TB, Rekrul) that players were offered money to throw (note that this is no proof of anything obviously). edit : oh wait, maybe you meant that maybe they are not offered money to throw but something else? Well if it's not money but still something that has to do with money (material goods, services,...) it's the same, and the other possibility is that they are being blackmailed into throwing. That's not the same as being offered money, but the issue is the same.
given your other posts though, how does any of that count as solid evidence? I think if you applied your logic to all of this, you'd have to say there's no reason to think anything is going on at all.
Point being, if you can accept that people are being offered to fix matches based on this evidence, why can't you accept that matches are being fixed?
It doesn't count as solid evidence, I said it myself. But to answer your question, it's because it's about the consequences.
By saying "X game is fixed, Y player threw it", you accuse a player of being dishonest, of being a cheater, with all the consequences that it can have on him both moral (yeah receiving tons of hatemail isn't really good for your moral, you know) and legal (in case competent organizations come to that conclusion as well). If you accuse him with adequate proof, that's fair and good ; if you accuse him without proof, then you're talking out of your ass. Which is not an issue in itself, but if a whole community starts to talk out of its ass and wrongfully accuse a player, then it's terrible.
By saying "people are being offered to fix matches" you accuse unknown matchfixers. That doesn't yield any consequences, since they're unknown and by definition you don't know who they are. Additionally you're accusing what is by definition an outlaw (since matchfixing is illegal) of being outlaw. No harm done. Now don't get me wrong, if that was not "people are being offered to fix matches" but "[insert known community figure here] offers players to fix matches", then I would be defending said community figure just like I'm doing with MK, because there are possible heavy consequences for him being wrongfully accused.
Maybe it's like Winter botting and someone is trying to sabotage MKP by skewing the betting lines to make it LOOK like he's matchfixing.... then he just happened to play an awful game that looked exactly like matchfixing!
On March 26 2015 06:08 Rube_Juice wrote: Maybe it's like Winter botting and someone is trying to sabotage MKP by skewing the betting lines to make it LOOK like he's matchfixing.... then he just happened to play an awful game that looked exactly like matchfixing!
The "Sabotage" hypothesis was maybe legit for San vs Dark, but since games like this have accumulated since it seems really, really unlikely.
On March 26 2015 06:08 Rube_Juice wrote: Maybe it's like Winter botting and someone is trying to sabotage MKP by skewing the betting lines to make it LOOK like he's matchfixing.... then he just happened to play an awful game that looked exactly like matchfixing!
The "Sabotage" hypothesis was maybe legit for San vs Dark, but since games like this have accumulated since it seems really, really unlikely.
I'm not sure if this has been asked yet but is there a way for the people running proleague to check the player camera to see if he actually checked to see what the red dot was?
On March 26 2015 11:23 zealotstim wrote: I'm not sure if this has been asked yet but is there a way for the people running proleague to check the player camera to see if he actually checked to see what the red dot was?
I just watched the games and honestly doubt that match fixing took place. For one thing, if it's match fixing, MK did it one of the dumbest ways possible. I mean, leaving that spine alone when it was in plain view.... That does not give the thing a feeling of legitimacy at all. It arouses suspicions, because it wasn't just a mistake, it was something a progamer is supposed to be unable to screw up so hard. For another thing, if he indeed had been really sick, that could explain the odd betting patterns as well as the screwy game play. Dude's really sick, his attention is not there. Maybe he knew that and that helps explain why he looked so unsettled before the game. And the bets? Someone was at the studio and got wind of how fucked up he looked. Phoned it in: Byul looks like a sure thing. Honestly, I think this is completely plausible. (Edits due to phone typos)
Well, Welmu and HuK disagree with you that it's plausible he could play this poorly legitimately.
The fact is he specifically selected the reaper and moved it away the instant the Spine showed up in his vision. People like to ignore that but he just happened to react the second the proxy was revealed. It's one hell of a coincidence that he just happened to pick *that* moment to bring his reaper back from the bottom of his base to idle in the middle of his base for almost 2 minutes instead of leaving it where it was.
On March 26 2015 17:00 Wuster wrote: Well, Welmu and HuK disagree with you that it's plausible he could play this poorly legitimately.
The fact is he specifically selected the reaper and moved it away the instant the Spine showed up in his vision. People like to ignore that but he just happened to react the second the proxy was revealed. It's one hell of a coincidence that he just happened to pick *that* moment to bring his reaper back from the bottom of his base to idle in the middle of his base for almost 2 minutes instead of leaving it where it was.
You can't know if the spine was revealed within his screen vision or not though.
On March 26 2015 20:42 TheDwf wrote: Any recent developments worthy of reading stuff that might anger me?
-A post by rekrul saying this
facts:
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie
2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)
3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea
-A post by Welmu saying that there is basically no way MK didn't throw -Various progamers (Kane, HuK, etc) saying on community shows that they think MK did throw as well -Richard Lewis saying on a community show that we're probably facing a "less glamorous" version of the sAviOr scandal That's all I can think of. Oh yes I forgot that :
On March 26 2015 04:50 jinorazi wrote: Crawler was not scouted from what I saw as some claim.
The minimap saw it clearly.
Tumor, not crawler.
Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD.
Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression.
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built.
Even if we ignore the visible crawler.
I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever.
You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought.
If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions.
It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose)
Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking.
Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway?
No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that.
Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing"
Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea.
However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there)
As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game.
Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran.
You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit.
We have no idea of the legitimacy of the poster, but I PM'd him and he plans to release the replay if this keeps getting attention and doesn't fall into the darkness like the other voided bets.
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie
2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)
3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea
-A post by Welmu saying that there is basically no way MK didn't throw -Various progamers (Kane, HuK, etc) saying on community shows that they think MK did throw as well -Richard Lewis saying on a community show that we're probably facing a "less glamorous" version of the sAviOr scandal That's all I can think of. Oh yes I forgot that :
Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD.
Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression.
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built.
Even if we ignore the visible crawler.
I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever.
You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought.
If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions.
It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose)
Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking.
Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway?
No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that.
Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing"
Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea.
However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there)
As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game.
Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran.
You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit.
We have no idea of the legitimacy of the poster, but I PM'd him and he plans to release the replay if this keeps getting attention and doesn't fall into the darkness like the other voided bets.
Yeah, in short just the 5040570750307000074th proof that money corrupts everything
On March 26 2015 20:42 TheDwf wrote: Any recent developments worthy of reading stuff that might anger me?
-A post by rekrul saying this
facts:
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie
2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)
3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea
-A post by Welmu saying that there is basically no way MK didn't throw -Various progamers (Kane, HuK, etc) saying on community shows that they think MK did throw as well -Richard Lewis saying on a community show that we're probably facing a "less glamorous" version of the sAviOr scandal That's all I can think of. Oh yes I forgot that :
On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:
On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:
On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:
On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:
On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:
On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:
On March 26 2015 04:53 jinorazi wrote: [quote]
Tumor, not crawler.
Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD.
Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression.
i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built.
Even if we ignore the visible crawler.
I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever.
You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought.
If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions.
It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose)
Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking.
Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway?
No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that.
Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing"
Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea.
However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there)
As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game.
Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran.
You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit.
We have no idea of the legitimacy of the poster, but I PM'd him and he plans to release the replay if this keeps getting attention and doesn't fall into the darkness like the other voided bets.
Yeah, in short just the 5040570750307000074th proof that money corrupts everything
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