He is waiting for an all-in to come, so there is no real need to look at the minimap very often.
But he did though... Check his eye movement between 4:34 and 4:35... He is glancing at the bottom left side of the screen, and any decent player is simply (out of habit) frequently looking at the minimap.
That's true, and it seems difficult to argue against that. But then again look at Maru vs Dark at IEM Katowice, I can't believe that Maru didn't look at the minimap during 20 whole in game seconds. And MarineKing is a nervous wreck, if he was scared of an all-in he is capable of looking at the minimap by reflex but the connection between "red dot" and "ennemy building" just wasn't made.
Can you link me to the Maru vs Dark game with clock?
Here :
Timestamp is at 8:30 into the game ; nydus starts building at 8:47/48 according to the minimap indicator ; Nydus finishes at 9:07 ; Maru reacts at ~9:10.
edit : considering MK's attitude during the game vs ByuL I wonder if he wasn't ill. That would explain that he could look at the minimap without reacting.
No it wouldn't explain anything. How ill do you have to be to make such mistakes as a progamer? Sry but all your arguments you made in defense of MKP² make no sense at all imo
I didn't make any arguments but mere observations, I'm unsure about what to think currently. As for the illness thing, well here it is in short : minimap awareness consists of two things, looking often at the minimap (which is not a problem for every single Korean progamer who gets to play at PL level, I'm sure of that), and having enough focus/awareness so that what you see provokes a reaction in your brain. It probably happened to you, as it happened to everyone, to see something that should have warranted attention, but you didn't have enough focus to react accordingly.
Now progamers are trained to have an exceptional awareness of the minimap, we can all agree on that. However, it doesn't seem unlikely to me at all that a simple heavy headache could cause an important loss of focus and awareness (additionally the minimap is small, a dot on it is even smaller), which would explain that he looked at the minimap but didn't react until it was really, really obvious. Sometimes your brain is hazy and connections just don't happen. So to answer your question, a progamer probably doesn't have to be that ill to have his decision making and focus affected ; the level of focus a game like SC2 requires is very high. I might add that in the eventuality that he was on painkillers, this probably didn't help him to make senseful decisions and to have good awareness.
I think that this would possibly get along my observation that his behavior and looks at the start of the game is different from what he displayed the previous weeks.
However I do agree that even with this the game still looks sketchy. I'm trying to find possible and coherent explanations, that's all.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
The most suspicious game I remember ever seeing, and crazy betting odds?
Shit's looking pretty grim here, MK. I do believe this will be the tipping point for something to happen. Maybe MarineKing was just taking one for the team, letting everyone know that there was matchfixing going on!
Oh I suppose this could have been posted in the new thread. Oh well.
Timestamp is at 8:30 into the game ; nydus starts building at 8:47/48 according to the minimap indicator ; Nydus finishes at 9:07 ; Maru reacts at ~9:10.
Yeh so in this situation it is clear that Maru is occupied microing Banshee's (or was occupied and needs to get back to macro after harassing). It's still bad by Maru, but stuff like that happens.
I think when we saw MKP, everyone just had their mind blown that MKP didn't see it. Wolf repeated 4 times in a row "I can't believe it". What happened there was just of a different caliber than anything seen before.
Timestamp is at 8:30 into the game ; nydus starts building at 8:47/48 according to the minimap indicator ; Nydus finishes at 9:07 ; Maru reacts at ~9:10.
Yeh so in this situation it is clear that Maru is occupied microing Banshee's (or was occupied and needs to get back to macro after harassing). It's still bad by Maru, but stuff like that happens.
I think when we saw MKP, everyone just had their mind blown that MKP didn't see it. Wolf repeated 4 times in a row "I can't believe it". What happened there was just of a different caliber than anything seen before.
It's true. It isn't enough to incriminate him, though.
Not seeing a nydus at 8.30 is way different than not seeing a proxy spinecrawler at 4 mins when you have nothing better to do AND you know zerg is doing something weird. He was just doing nothing, no units outside his base, all his units/buildings practically fit in one screen. It's more fishy than the ocean.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 03:05 The_Red_Viper wrote: So does teamliquid plan on making an article about all these fishy actions we had the past few months? As long as people don't talk about this i doubt anything will change. I somewhat think TL should cover this and make people aware (that doesn't mean you have to accuse and draw big conclusions, an objective article would be great though) Nothing will ever change if all the big names are just silent about it
The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
On March 25 2015 04:55 Zealously wrote: [quote] The detail such an article would demand for me to even consider is far greater than what any of our writers (maybe bar 1) would bother with. So no.
Hm i understand what you are getting at, but that's kinda disappointing nonetheless.
I would much much sooner remain quiet than potentially incriminating someone innocent and starting a career-ending, large scale witch hunt. Reddit can take care of that.
Sry but that's a bad argument. If you write an objective article about the whole situation you don't start a witchunt. You just inform people and raise awareness. Being silent and hope it goes away is the worst possible thing you can do imo. There is a point where people SHOULD start to question these things, and this point surely was today (if not earlier)
The argument is that an article on the topic would only be desirable If it meets a certain, very high standard of journalism. I'm not going to greenlight an article that isn't insanely thorough and researched to a point above the majority of our content. Misrepresenting facts and posing an incorrect view of the situation is in no one's interest, your desire for an incriminating article notwithstanding.
Meh, you should know better.
Maybe nobody of you is capable of doing such an article, i don't know if that's the case (i doubt it though). Still, TL (THE sc2 site) should cover something like this. Sometimes you have to write about the "bad" stuff too.
Because TL is the SC2 site, we have a reputation we need to uphold. We cannot give into community pressure and engage in witch hunting or idle speculation in a situation that concerns the livelihoods of multiple players. If one of our staff wishes to report on this situation, they can do so provided they meet the standard of objectivity and research required, but we are neither going to force anyone nor write a potentially incriminating article about something we don't know well enough to comment on. I, for example, could not write an article on match fixing. I don't understand betting or betting lines (or Pinnacle for that matter) well enough to comment. You might think we're being conservative and cowardly, but I prefer that over preemptive conclusions that cause someone harm. That's the key difference here. Our ordinary content doesn't risk causing someone permanent career damage if factually incorrect, this could. It may be an unrealistic worry taken to an extreme, but if you think it's important I suggest you do the research and the writing yourself. If you're worried about the writing quality, I can help you with editing.
Sangho's situation being repeated is what I'm so afraid of.
Social media imo has damn near killed journalism and what it stands for. I applaud the decision to not jump to conclusions so quickly.
If anything this situation shows that silence is bad. People will believe what they want no matter what. If there is a trusted source which informs people, this might change though. In no way this incident shows that being silent and let people form their own opinions based on rumors is a good thing.
MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
It looks bad. But you can't headshot somebody's career because "that one match seemed pretty fishy".
I'm confident that people with the proper authority and resources have noticed this and will investigate. For now, in my eyes, he's innocent until proven guilty. I especially agree with the decision to not publish an article to the front page of TL. There's no way to be fair to MKP when we are only working off speculation.
토쟁이 쓰레기들은 공감 못하겠지... 프로게이머라는 직업에 붙은 프로라는 말... 대다수 어렸을적부터 반대를 무릎쓰고 꿈꿔왔던, 간절히 바랬기에 갖은 노력을 해서 얻어진 타이틀 프로게이머 우린 그것에 자부심을 가져서 정말 반복되고 지치고 힘든 생활을 버틴다 너네같이 꿈없고 물흘러가듯이 살다가 가십거리로, 우연히 불법토토로 알게된 우리들에게 욕할 자격이 없다 주어진 한경기를 위해 자나깨나 미친듯이 생각하고 동료들과 토론하고 준비하고 해야 얻어질수있는 값진 승리 너희같은 하류들은 평생 살아도 모르겠지 진선수들에게 조작거리는게 한심하고 가엾다 너넨 평생 모를테니까 가슴뛰는 그 승리의 성취감을 ㅎㅎ
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
On March 25 2015 08:04 ricecake wrote: It looks bad. But you can't headshot somebody's career because "that one match seemed pretty fishy".
I'm confident that people with the proper authority and resources have noticed this and will investigate. For now, in my eyes, he's innocent until proven guilty. I especially agree with the decision to not publish an article to the front page of TL. There's no way to be fair to MKP when we are only working off speculation.
The only ones speculating at this point are people who defend mkp. How could he possibly miss the spinecrawler on his minimap? Why didn't he use his reapers? We have facts about the game (he had vision of enemy structures on his minimap), some people draw conclusions which say it was matchfixing (and no, nobody says so cause of the game alone, we also have pinnacle voiding a bet), others try to defend him with assumptions which are unlikely as fuck. It simply is no assumption that he missed the dot on his minimap, it happened. It is no assumption that this never should happen (it was on his minimap for a very long time). The only assumptions happening in this thread are people searching for solutions which defend mkp (and the korean sc2 scene). It also is no assumption that pinnacle voided the bet cause of strange line movements. We literally know the odds of both players which lead to this action. They were like 90% for Byul to win this match. How can this happen? 1. Matchfixing (we have 2 pretty strong facts, here evidence, which makes this pretty likely) 2. some other assumptions which have no evidence at all
We will never have 100% proof of anything, it's all about possibilities and their probabilities. At this point matchfixing is more likely (no obviously not 100%, but it will never be 100%)
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote: MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.
I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.
I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.
Waxangel translated the post MK made on his Facebook:
"Gambler trash couldn't possibly know... What the "pro" in "progamer" means... Most of us had to go against disapproval from our parents since we were young, and we earned the title of Progamer because we wanted it that much and worked that hard for it. It's our pride in that title that lets us live through repetitive and hard lives. People like you who don't have any dreams and pass through life like water -- who come to know of us through illegal betting -- you don't have any right to gossip about or insult us. For a single game, waking and sleeping, we wrack our brains like crazy, planning and discussing with our teammates -- that's what you need to win a precious victory. Losers like you wouldn't know that for your entire lives. It's pathetic how you say players who lose are fixing matches. Because you guys will never know what it feels, that heart-pounding satisfaction when you win."
EPT
