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On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote:
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
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On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote:
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
No we don't lack the evidence. There were shady line movements and then MKP lost in the most stupid way imaginable.
The connection is already there.
What exactly do you want? What exactly is this proof people still seem to want? The evidence is there, people have to react NOW. Do i want MKP be banned for this evidence? No probably not.
Do i want Kespa to make a statement, yes absolutely.
There simply won't be any proof if we just say "hey it might be a coincidence", people will forget about it and that's it.
I simply don't understand how people think it is more likely that MKP played like bronze league player cause he was ill (i guess he almost died) just at the time when pinnacle voids exactly that bet.
How does this make any sense?
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On March 26 2015 04:34 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote:
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game. how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
Well the Solar thing being brought up, Welmu's post in the Pinnacle thread, as well as well known community members (TB, Rekrul) that players were offered money to throw (note that this is no proof of anything obviously).
edit : oh wait, maybe you meant that maybe they are not offered money to throw but something else? Well if it's not money but still something that has to do with money (material goods, services,...) it's the same, and the other possibility is that they are being blackmailed into throwing. That's not the same as being offered money, but the issue is the same.
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On March 26 2015 04:34 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote:
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game. how are you sure players are being offered money to throw?
Because what incentive is there otherwise?
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On March 26 2015 04:43 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 04:34 Popkiller wrote:On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote:
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game. how are you sure players are being offered money to throw? Well the Solar thing being brought up, Welmu's post in the Pinnacle thread, as well as well known community members (TB, Rekrul) that players were offered money to throw (note that this is no proof of anything obviously). edit : oh wait, maybe you meant that maybe they are not offered money to throw but something else? Well if it's not money but still something that has to do with money (material goods, services,...) it's the same, and the other possibility is that they are being blackmailed into throwing. That's not the same as being offered money, but the issue is the same.
given your other posts though, how does any of that count as solid evidence? I think if you applied your logic to all of this, you'd have to say there's no reason to think anything is going on at all.
Point being, if you can accept that people are being offered to fix matches based on this evidence, why can't you accept that matches are being fixed?
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On March 26 2015 05:15 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 04:43 OtherWorld wrote:On March 26 2015 04:34 Popkiller wrote:On March 26 2015 04:07 OtherWorld wrote:
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game. how are you sure players are being offered money to throw? Well the Solar thing being brought up, Welmu's post in the Pinnacle thread, as well as well known community members (TB, Rekrul) that players were offered money to throw (note that this is no proof of anything obviously). edit : oh wait, maybe you meant that maybe they are not offered money to throw but something else? Well if it's not money but still something that has to do with money (material goods, services,...) it's the same, and the other possibility is that they are being blackmailed into throwing. That's not the same as being offered money, but the issue is the same. given your other posts though, how does any of that count as solid evidence? I think if you applied your logic to all of this, you'd have to say there's no reason to think anything is going on at all. Point being, if you can accept that people are being offered to fix matches based on this evidence, why can't you accept that matches are being fixed?
It doesn't count as solid evidence, I said it myself. But to answer your question, it's because it's about the consequences.
By saying "X game is fixed, Y player threw it", you accuse a player of being dishonest, of being a cheater, with all the consequences that it can have on him both moral (yeah receiving tons of hatemail isn't really good for your moral, you know) and legal (in case competent organizations come to that conclusion as well). If you accuse him with adequate proof, that's fair and good ; if you accuse him without proof, then you're talking out of your ass. Which is not an issue in itself, but if a whole community starts to talk out of its ass and wrongfully accuse a player, then it's terrible.
By saying "people are being offered to fix matches" you accuse unknown matchfixers. That doesn't yield any consequences, since they're unknown and by definition you don't know who they are. Additionally you're accusing what is by definition an outlaw (since matchfixing is illegal) of being outlaw. No harm done. Now don't get me wrong, if that was not "people are being offered to fix matches" but "[insert known community figure here] offers players to fix matches", then I would be defending said community figure just like I'm doing with MK, because there are possible heavy consequences for him being wrongfully accused.
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Maybe it's like Winter botting and someone is trying to sabotage MKP by skewing the betting lines to make it LOOK like he's matchfixing.... then he just happened to play an awful game that looked exactly like matchfixing!
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On March 26 2015 06:08 Rube_Juice wrote:
Maybe it's like Winter botting and someone is trying to sabotage MKP by skewing the betting lines to make it LOOK like he's matchfixing.... then he just happened to play an awful game that looked exactly like matchfixing!
The "Sabotage" hypothesis was maybe legit for San vs Dark, but since games like this have accumulated since it seems really, really unlikely.
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On March 26 2015 06:09 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:08 Rube_Juice wrote:
Maybe it's like Winter botting and someone is trying to sabotage MKP by skewing the betting lines to make it LOOK like he's matchfixing.... then he just happened to play an awful game that looked exactly like matchfixing! The "Sabotage" hypothesis was maybe legit for San vs Dark, but since games like this have accumulated since it seems really, really unlikely.
nahhhh man, winter's innocent
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Otherworld, you argue so much for both sides that you might have missed the sarcasm in this post 
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On March 26 2015 06:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:Otherworld, you argue so much for both sides that you might have missed the sarcasm in this post
Yeah, I'd even say that this is clearly not a huge assumption to make :D
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On March 26 2015 06:32 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 06:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:Otherworld, you argue so much for both sides that you might have missed the sarcasm in this post Yeah, I'd even say that this is clearly not a huge assumption to make :D
hey stop making assumptions 
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I'm not sure if this has been asked yet but is there a way for the people running proleague to check the player camera to see if he actually checked to see what the red dot was?
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On March 26 2015 11:23 zealotstim wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been asked yet but is there a way for the people running proleague to check the player camera to see if he actually checked to see what the red dot was?
i mean you can definitely do that in the replays.
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I just watched the games and honestly doubt that match fixing took place. For one thing, if it's match fixing, MK did it one of the dumbest ways possible. I mean, leaving that spine alone when it was in plain view.... That does not give the thing a feeling of legitimacy at all. It arouses suspicions, because it wasn't just a mistake, it was something a progamer is supposed to be unable to screw up so hard. For another thing, if he indeed had been really sick, that could explain the odd betting patterns as well as the screwy game play. Dude's really sick, his attention is not there. Maybe he knew that and that helps explain why he looked so unsettled before the game. And the bets? Someone was at the studio and got wind of how fucked up he looked. Phoned it in: Byul looks like a sure thing.
Honestly, I think this is completely plausible.
(Edits due to phone typos)
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Well, Welmu and HuK disagree with you that it's plausible he could play this poorly legitimately.
The fact is he specifically selected the reaper and moved it away the instant the Spine showed up in his vision. People like to ignore that but he just happened to react the second the proxy was revealed. It's one hell of a coincidence that he just happened to pick *that* moment to bring his reaper back from the bottom of his base to idle in the middle of his base for almost 2 minutes instead of leaving it where it was.
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On March 26 2015 17:00 Wuster wrote:
Well, Welmu and HuK disagree with you that it's plausible he could play this poorly legitimately.
The fact is he specifically selected the reaper and moved it away the instant the Spine showed up in his vision. People like to ignore that but he just happened to react the second the proxy was revealed. It's one hell of a coincidence that he just happened to pick *that* moment to bring his reaper back from the bottom of his base to idle in the middle of his base for almost 2 minutes instead of leaving it where it was.
You can't know if the spine was revealed within his screen vision or not though.
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Any recent developments worthy of reading stuff that might anger me?
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On March 26 2015 20:42 TheDwf wrote:
Any recent developments worthy of reading stuff that might anger me?
-A post by rekrul saying this
facts:
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie
2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)
3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea
-A post by Welmu saying that there is basically no way MK didn't throw
-Various progamers (Kane, HuK, etc) saying on community shows that they think MK did throw as well
-Richard Lewis saying on a community show that we're probably facing a "less glamorous" version of the sAviOr scandal
That's all I can think of. Oh yes I forgot that :
On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 26 2015 04:53 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 04:50 BronzeKnee wrote:On March 26 2015 04:50 jinorazi wrote:
Crawler was not scouted from what I saw as some claim.
The minimap saw it clearly. Tumor, not crawler. Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD. Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit.
We have no idea of the legitimacy of the poster, but I PM'd him and he plans to release the replay if this keeps getting attention and doesn't fall into the darkness like the other voided bets.
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On March 26 2015 20:48 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 20:42 TheDwf wrote:
Any recent developments worthy of reading stuff that might anger me? -A post by rekrul saying this Show nested quote +
facts:
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie
2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)
3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea
-A post by Welmu saying that there is basically no way MK didn't throw -Various progamers (Kane, HuK, etc) saying on community shows that they think MK did throw as well -Richard Lewis saying on a community show that we're probably facing a "less glamorous" version of the sAviOr scandal That's all I can think of. Oh yes I forgot that : Show nested quote +On March 26 2015 05:40 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 26 2015 05:25 Penev wrote:On March 26 2015 05:23 duckk wrote:On March 26 2015 05:15 Wuster wrote:On March 26 2015 05:08 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 05:05 FFW_Rude wrote:On March 26 2015 04:53 jinorazi wrote:On March 26 2015 04:50 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
The minimap saw it clearly.
Tumor, not crawler. Observer pointed 3times the crawler in MK vision in the VOD. Watching it again, MK seemed so destroy..... it was so sad to see. And i don't really like him. it was just sad to see his expression. i watched it again and yes its a crawler being built. Even if we ignore the visible crawler. I'm trying to think of a build where you have 2 reapers and keep them at home for ever. You go double reaper to scout and put early pressure to keep his early units at home I thought. If you suspect all-in then reapers are faster than literally every unit at that point of the game and you go look for them no? That's definitely what I see people doing with their hellions. It is very probable he feared zergling speed, at one point his reapers went to the low ground ( i assume to check for banes morphing and not because he is flustered that he accidentally scouted a proxy spine and has no idea what to do to lose) Any proxy hatchery or 1 base build will lose to even greedy non ebay terran builds if they are somewhat competent. Marineking should have had his third or a depot started by the rocks is the only suspicious part for me. I would still attribute this to a misread and bad eyesight of marineking. Also after the dark/san bets being void wouldnt they make the betting lines look less skewed if they were going to fix the match since it will just get canceled anyway? No it was not, the pool was late, he scouted that. Yeah people in this thread use so many assumptions, it's really disappointing. I guess people defending him with "misreading the situation" think he doesn't know the most simple pool/hatchery timings. He absolutely should have known that there has to be a hatch somewhere. He had two reapers and didn't search for this hatchery at all, why? Some people then argue, "well he thought it's a one base allin" (that makes no sense, but ok), well why didn't he scout with his reapers then? He still knew there can't be speed yet. He didn't build any bunkers. All of this doesn't add up, this isn't "bad play", this most likely is "bad throwing" Yeah I thought the pool was already done for some reason scratch that idea. However, when marineking checks the gascount he leans in to look either at the gas count specifically or the mini-map to see if there was a hatchery. This makes it possible that he would not have noticed the spine crawler on the minimap, probably should have seen the creep sooner though. Even in this thread knowing byul proxied spines I thought it was a screenshot of an overlord of byuls.(possible if he had vision which on the minimap it would be close enough to assume an overlord because no1 proxies spines there) As I have stated before I have proxied marinekings gold on overgrowth recently and his reaction was the EXACT same. The only difference was I hit later than byul and he already had 3 bunkers up. His reapers never left his base and he went three cc at the same timing of this game. Why would he care if there was a hatchery anywhere on the map? With 24 gas and limited income there is no allin a zerg can do that can kill a 3cc terran. You complain about assumptions yet you are making the assumption that he should know there is a hatchery somewhere. If he knows there cant be speed then he also knows he doesn't need bunkers because reapers can kite every other unit. We have no idea of the legitimacy of the poster, but I PM'd him and he plans to release the replay if this keeps getting attention and doesn't fall into the darkness like the other voided bets.
Yeah, in short just the 5040570750307000074th proof that money corrupts everything 
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EPT
