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[SPL] CJ vs MVP Round 2 2015 - Page 20

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
March 24 2015 23:24 GMT
#381
What's going here? No time to read everything, just a quick summary in 2 sentences should do. Thanks!
Wuster
Profile Joined May 2011
1974 Posts
March 24 2015 23:26 GMT
#382
I think this is a good enough summary:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
March 24 2015 23:27 GMT
#383
On March 25 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote:
I think this is a good enough summary:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match

Thanks!
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
March 24 2015 23:37 GMT
#384
On March 25 2015 08:20 Zealously wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 08:14 Grumbels wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:59 Zealously wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote:
MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.


I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.

I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.


"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.

100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact.
It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all.
We have proof that people got offers to throw matches.
We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady.
We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.

What exactly needs to happen additional to that, so you can accept that it is enough to worry and assume matchfixing is going on?
Nobody of us WANTS to be right about this. Sc2 is my favorite esports, i love the korean scene. But that shouldn't influence my opinion about all of this. It looks like it influences yours though (i don't wanna be offensive, but that's the impression i got so far)
Rekrul posted something btw:

On March 25 2015 08:08 Rekrul wrote:
facts:

1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie

2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)

3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea


Obviously that is just one more "accusation" , but i guess it is at least no noname forum user
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
March 24 2015 23:40 GMT
#385
I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.
AdministratorBreak the chains
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
March 24 2015 23:57 GMT
#386
You're distorting the meaning of innocent-until-proven guilty, which is a legal concept, into a tool to dismiss any sort of behavior, no matter how suspicious. Standards of guilt for the law are different than for real-life situations, and furthermore, ending MK's SC2 career is not like throwing him in prison. He has a career by the grace of the community and if he's obviously cheating then I have no sympathy and he should become an outcast. And hopefully enough people will be in support of this to make it happen.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
March 25 2015 00:54 GMT
#387
On March 25 2015 08:40 Zealously wrote:
I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.


Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect?

Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18378 Posts
March 25 2015 00:57 GMT
#388
On March 25 2015 08:22 Zealously wrote:
Waxangel translated the post MK made on his Facebook:

Show nested quote +
"Gambler trash couldn't possibly know... What the "pro" in "progamer" means...
Most of us had to go against disapproval from our parents since we were young, and we earned the title of Progamer because we wanted it that much and worked that hard for it. It's our pride in that title that lets us live through repetitive and hard lives.
People like you who don't have any dreams and pass through life like water -- who come to know of us through illegal betting -- you don't have any right to gossip about or insult us.
For a single game, waking and sleeping, we wrack our brains like crazy, planning and discussing with our teammates -- that's what you need to win a precious victory. Losers like you wouldn't know that for your entire lives. It's pathetic how you say players who lose are fixing matches. Because you guys will never know what it feels, that heart-pounding satisfaction when you win."


Sadly this doesn't tell us anything...
Saviour fucking looked in Coach Cho's eyes and told his father-like figure that he didn't do it. Hell, herO could be a matchfixer for all we know and we don't know it...

It's sad stuff and I really hope we get that article that should have been released a while ago...
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States1227 Posts
March 25 2015 01:22 GMT
#389
MK could've had the flu and played like a silver leaguer. It happens.

But the betting lines... that's pretty incontrovertible evidence IMO.
2006 Shinhan Bank OSL Season 3 was the greatest tournament of all time
PesteNoire
Profile Joined June 2012
151 Posts
March 25 2015 01:31 GMT
#390
MKP's play made ZERO sense and there no possible way anyone can argue that MKP did not see that spine on his mini map. No way in hell he didn't see that
Melix
Profile Joined December 2010
United States89 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-25 01:59:59
March 25 2015 01:54 GMT
#391
On March 25 2015 09:54 Clonester wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 08:40 Zealously wrote:
I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.


Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect?



We have to be careful not to conflate two different issues. The first issue is what sort of opinion are we entitled to hold regarding what MarineKing did or did not do. On that, I agree that innocent until proven guilty is not necessarily the standard that you apply -- that comes into play when you are trying to convict someone of criminal behavior. It doesn't mean that you can't harbor an opinion until or unless the available evidence meets that standard.

But what Zealously is talking about is whether TL should do some sort of front page reporting on this issue. With respect to that, I totally agree that unless the reporting can be done with the highest level of accuracy and integrity -- which would require a tremendous amount of work and specialized training -- it can end up doing more harm than good. The TL staff are damn good at what they do but they are not trained investigative journalists, and we should not lay that responsibility at their feet. Not when the stakes are as high as potentially ending someone's career. Just look at what Rolling Stone did with the UVA rape case for an example of what bad investigative journalism can do.
showstealer1829
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Australia3123 Posts
March 25 2015 05:49 GMT
#392
On March 25 2015 09:54 Clonester wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 08:40 Zealously wrote:
I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically.


Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect?



That's a bad analogy. You may be the main suspect if you're being tried yes but the burden of proof is still on the accusers to say he did it. I'm not even saying MK didn't fix the game and it doesn't warrant an investigation, it does and it should be but so many posters are acting like MK's judge, jury and executioner based on circumstantial evidence at best.

Should he have seen the spine? Of course

Did he? Noone knows. How can you say "Of course he saw it". Were you in the booth with him? Did you hack Kespa's comps and see his view? No. And demanding TL Staff post an article based on that when they do have a reputation to uphold is shady as fuck.
There is no understanding. There is only Choya. Choya is the way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life. Has is the Light in the Protoss Dark and Nightmare is his chosen Acolyte
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-25 06:14:10
March 25 2015 06:00 GMT
#393
On March 25 2015 08:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 08:20 Zealously wrote:
On March 25 2015 08:14 Grumbels wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:59 Zealously wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote:
MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.


I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.

I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.


"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.

100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact.
It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all.
We have proof that people got offers to throw matches.
We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady.
We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.


90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it.
We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good.
But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
March 25 2015 08:48 GMT
#394
Just saw this match (as well as Yoda vs Bunny)

I am going with the flow, this is shady as fuck. MKP's build, his reaper control, this "excessively surprised" face when he sees the creep, the betting line. There is no proof, but what in France would be called an "array of presumption" (faisceau de présomptions) which would likely be sufficient to hand a judgment.

However, as much as I like Rekrul for his uncovering of BW's matchfixing, he has also been completely wrong on other topics (I would really like to find what that story was, but I can't find it. Anyone can help?), so take what he says with a grain of salt instead of just stating "If Rekrul says it, it's true"
Wuster
Profile Joined May 2011
1974 Posts
March 25 2015 08:50 GMT
#395
On March 25 2015 15:00 OtherWorld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 08:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On March 25 2015 08:20 Zealously wrote:
On March 25 2015 08:14 Grumbels wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:59 Zealously wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote:
MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.


I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.

I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.


"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.

100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact.
It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all.
We have proof that people got offers to throw matches.
We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady.
We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.


90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it.
We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good.
But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come.


We do have evidence that players are being offered money to throw games:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/450607-solar-received-an-offer-to-fix-a-game

This was 9 months ago so you may have forgotten about it. KeSPA followed up saying this wasn't an isolated incident even.

This is ignoring the entire WCS EU mess last season where two players openly negotiated how much money for throwing a game (of course one side claimed to be joking afterwards).
RaFox17
Profile Joined May 2013
Finland4581 Posts
March 25 2015 09:35 GMT
#396
Marineking what the hell was that?!!?! I would have noticed that!!
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-25 09:42:27
March 25 2015 09:41 GMT
#397
On March 25 2015 18:35 RaFox17 wrote:
Marineking what the hell was that?!!?! I would have noticed that!!

I assume most players would, and most players probably would have reacted to this in some way:



But it is MarineKing.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 25 2015 11:01 GMT
#398
On March 25 2015 17:50 Wuster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 25 2015 15:00 OtherWorld wrote:
On March 25 2015 08:37 The_Red_Viper wrote:
On March 25 2015 08:20 Zealously wrote:
On March 25 2015 08:14 Grumbels wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:59 Zealously wrote:
On March 25 2015 07:48 Grumbels wrote:
MarineKing's career should be harmed. What is this nonsense about "not harming innocent players"? He's involved in matchfixing, his career should be actively sabotaged until he is removed from the scene. The most idiotic thing is that people are already being pre-emptively sympathetic to MK's plight, about how gangsters threatened his family and whatever fanciful tale they can come up with.


I'm (not so) patiently awaiting your bundle of irrefutable proof that incriminates Marineking beyond a doubt. Read the above link about Sangho and the match fixing scandal and think one more time before you try to actively slander someone not yet proven guilty.

I don't know, use your eyes? I'm not saying TL should do a big article full of accusations, or that MK is the most to blame out of everyone involved, but at least the community should have more sense than to let people get away with cheating. Calling this slander is pretty infantile btw, don't be stupid. If you want to ignore the obvious at least don't annoy others with your opinions.


"Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet.

100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact.
It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all.
We have proof that people got offers to throw matches.
We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady.
We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever.


90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it.
We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good.
But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come.


We do have evidence that players are being offered money to throw games:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/450607-solar-received-an-offer-to-fix-a-game

This was 9 months ago so you may have forgotten about it. KeSPA followed up saying this wasn't an isolated incident even.

This is ignoring the entire WCS EU mess last season where two players openly negotiated how much money for throwing a game (of course one side claimed to be joking afterwards).

This evidence isn't about the game we're talking about though. It also happened in a different context than ProLeague, and considering the use of FireCake's name + the matchfixer wanting the theorically inferior player to win + the fact that it happened in a foreign tournament, I think that this is more of a random EU/AM guy wanting to matchfix to make EZ money than an organized network of matchfixers like what is probably happening in Korea currently.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Wuster
Profile Joined May 2011
1974 Posts
March 25 2015 19:01 GMT
#399
I wasn't sure what context you wanted. But note that KeSPA never said what context people were approaching their players, just cryptically saying that these offers were 'increasing'. And nothing ever came of that. Do you really think people are going to stop when on one's actually been caught doing this?
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
March 25 2015 19:07 GMT
#400
Ah yeah sure, I'm not saying that players aren't being offered money to throw games. That's happening, at least in online tournaments, possibly (probably, considering what happened in the last month or two) in big offline tournaments such as the Korean leagues as well. But we still lack the evidence that could allow us to make the link between the odd betting lines and MK's odd way of playing this game.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
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