EPT[SPL] CJ vs MVP Round 2 2015 - Page 20
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
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Wuster
1974 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:26 Wuster wrote: I think this is a good enough summary: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/481281-pinnacle-voids-byul-vs-marineking-match Thanks! | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:20 Zealously wrote: "Innocent until proven guilty" is a concept for a reason. I would ask that you pay the minimum amount of respect to Marineking's 5-year career and at least provide enough proof that my opinion need not annoy you. It is, by far, better to be unnecessarily careful in this situation than to make even minor jumps to conclusions. Provided it is as obvious as you think, neither you nor anyone else should have trouble proving Marineking guilty beyond doubt. I'm simply waiting for the post that ties everything together, but no such post has been made yet. 100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact. It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all. We have proof that people got offers to throw matches. We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady. We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever. What exactly needs to happen additional to that, so you can accept that it is enough to worry and assume matchfixing is going on? Nobody of us WANTS to be right about this. Sc2 is my favorite esports, i love the korean scene. But that shouldn't influence my opinion about all of this. It looks like it influences yours though (i don't wanna be offensive, but that's the impression i got so far) Rekrul posted something btw: On March 25 2015 08:08 Rekrul wrote: facts: 1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie 2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well) 3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea Obviously that is just one more "accusation" , but i guess it is at least no noname forum user | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:40 Zealously wrote: I know shady-as-fuck-figures are reaching out to players and offering them money to throw matches. I'm not disputing that it's happening, but I am disputing that the evidence available right now is enough to condemn Marineking specifically. Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect? | ||
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sharkie
Austria18378 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:22 Zealously wrote: Waxangel translated the post MK made on his Facebook: Sadly this doesn't tell us anything... Saviour fucking looked in Coach Cho's eyes and told his father-like figure that he didn't do it. Hell, herO could be a matchfixer for all we know and we don't know it... It's sad stuff and I really hope we get that article that should have been released a while ago... | ||
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LightSpectra
United States1241 Posts
But the betting lines... that's pretty incontrovertible evidence IMO. | ||
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PesteNoire
151 Posts
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Melix
United States89 Posts
On March 25 2015 09:54 Clonester wrote: Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect? We have to be careful not to conflate two different issues. The first issue is what sort of opinion are we entitled to hold regarding what MarineKing did or did not do. On that, I agree that innocent until proven guilty is not necessarily the standard that you apply -- that comes into play when you are trying to convict someone of criminal behavior. It doesn't mean that you can't harbor an opinion until or unless the available evidence meets that standard. But what Zealously is talking about is whether TL should do some sort of front page reporting on this issue. With respect to that, I totally agree that unless the reporting can be done with the highest level of accuracy and integrity -- which would require a tremendous amount of work and specialized training -- it can end up doing more harm than good. The TL staff are damn good at what they do but they are not trained investigative journalists, and we should not lay that responsibility at their feet. Not when the stakes are as high as potentially ending someone's career. Just look at what Rolling Stone did with the UVA rape case for an example of what bad investigative journalism can do. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On March 25 2015 09:54 Clonester wrote: Innocent until proven does not meant that somebody is not suspicious. If you sit in front of a curt, you are innocent, but main suspect. And thus this has to be investigated. And guess what, because when Match Fixing becomes public, 3 more companys gonna leave Kespa (at least SCII), this gets no investigation at all. So the crowd stands here in TL or Reddit making accusations and shouting out the evidence that is undeniable there. What do you expect? That's a bad analogy. You may be the main suspect if you're being tried yes but the burden of proof is still on the accusers to say he did it. I'm not even saying MK didn't fix the game and it doesn't warrant an investigation, it does and it should be but so many posters are acting like MK's judge, jury and executioner based on circumstantial evidence at best. Should he have seen the spine? Of course Did he? Noone knows. How can you say "Of course he saw it". Were you in the booth with him? Did you hack Kespa's comps and see his view? No. And demanding TL Staff post an article based on that when they do have a reputation to uphold is shady as fuck. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 25 2015 08:37 The_Red_Viper wrote: 100% proof doesn't exist. You either are comfortable with being like 90% sure, or you simply won't ever be able to look at something as a fact. It isn't like today was the first time we have heard about possible matchfixing in sc2. This isn't new at all. We have proof that people got offers to throw matches. We have proof that pinnacle (and no, it isn't a shady site : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinnacle_Sports) voided sc2 bets cause the line movements were shady. We have proof that mkp "missed" enemy buidlings on the minimap for a very long time for no reason whatsoever. 90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it. We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good. But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come. | ||
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fezvez
France3021 Posts
I am going with the flow, this is shady as fuck. MKP's build, his reaper control, this "excessively surprised" face when he sees the creep, the betting line. There is no proof, but what in France would be called an "array of presumption" (faisceau de présomptions) which would likely be sufficient to hand a judgment. However, as much as I like Rekrul for his uncovering of BW's matchfixing, he has also been completely wrong on other topics (I would really like to find what that story was, but I can't find it. Anyone can help?), so take what he says with a grain of salt instead of just stating "If Rekrul says it, it's true" | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On March 25 2015 15:00 OtherWorld wrote: 90% sure is way way too low. Obviously you can't go to 100%, but 90% just doesn't cut it. We don't have proof that people got offers to throw matches ffs (unless I missed something overnight), get your shit together. We do have proof that the line movements were shady, we do have proof that MK's play was really fishy, but we don't have proof that he got offers to throw matches. That's even the very reason why people are arguing about it, if we had that proof that is missing then we would be good. But I guess that rekrul's post makes it quite clear as to what is to come. We do have evidence that players are being offered money to throw games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/450607-solar-received-an-offer-to-fix-a-game This was 9 months ago so you may have forgotten about it. KeSPA followed up saying this wasn't an isolated incident even. This is ignoring the entire WCS EU mess last season where two players openly negotiated how much money for throwing a game (of course one side claimed to be joking afterwards). | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
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Elentos
55510 Posts
On March 25 2015 18:35 RaFox17 wrote: Marineking what the hell was that?!!?! I would have noticed that!! I assume most players would, and most players probably would have reacted to this in some way: But it is MarineKing. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On March 25 2015 17:50 Wuster wrote: We do have evidence that players are being offered money to throw games: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/450607-solar-received-an-offer-to-fix-a-game This was 9 months ago so you may have forgotten about it. KeSPA followed up saying this wasn't an isolated incident even. This is ignoring the entire WCS EU mess last season where two players openly negotiated how much money for throwing a game (of course one side claimed to be joking afterwards). This evidence isn't about the game we're talking about though. It also happened in a different context than ProLeague, and considering the use of FireCake's name + the matchfixer wanting the theorically inferior player to win + the fact that it happened in a foreign tournament, I think that this is more of a random EU/AM guy wanting to matchfix to make EZ money than an organized network of matchfixers like what is probably happening in Korea currently. | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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