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On February 27 2015 22:58 Rollora wrote:SC2 simply too volatile/random. That is why I hate it so often. BUT: Result is not unexpected, since Artosis bet on Maru  Cheeses and allins are too strong. I used to say the better player doesn't always win and then the answer was clear "it is also a sign of a better player to choose the right strategy". Yeah well true that but there are too many strong openers for toss that you can choose and still switch to macro (so not even really a allin/cheese) and that is what I hate about it: Can't prepare for everything as terran, and even if scouted somethimes the build order just outright kills you. That (SC2 being so volatile) is IMO the reason why we don't see players dominating over a long period of time although being totally on top of their micro and macro. However, since Parting is a great player he deserves it as well, I just wished he beat Maru in a macro game and not cheese, which I always consider cheap wins. And there is this Protoss Bullshit thread... Oracle still should be redesigned. It makes too many kills too fast and it doesn't require that much micro compared to other harassement options (and not much of an investment compared to them). On Marus side I question his decision making, as he must know in a macro game he wins against Parting, so why not go for a safer opening. But what is safer then reaper expand on the other side? Since they won't fix many of the unit design problems (the game may be balanced but its unstable and volatile) with the addon, and even the slightest inbalances in pro play get really huge in lower levels (an easy to control but hard to defend against harass unit) the reason why so many people stopped playing and watchin sc2 is simply the frustration it gives you. None of us is Korean Pro Level and therefore things that already look imba on the streams and VODs really are imba at lower leagues. I wished with the addon, the game gets more like BW again, where 1 misclick in a fight didn't end the game but you could regain lead with several well done other clicks and micro and such and you had the chance to come back in the game just by being better in mechanics. Since the announcement of LOTV I cannot expect that sort of developement for SC2 anymore. So I guess I'll just wait for SC3 then, since there is no other RTS around (Grey Goo?) that is as good and fascinating as SC to me.
About the volatility part: Just looking at the last 3 months (Since 1st of december), Innovation had a win rate of 78% in maps and 85 % in matches against korean opponents. For Life, it is 67%/72%, for Maru 65%/69%. I have no bw numbers, but I doubt, that they would have constantly been over 90% either. Keep in mind, the stats above are including bo1s, in would probably be even better in bo3+.
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PartinG brought some extra cheese today apparently.
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On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)!
I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining.
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On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining.
I totally took your post as balance whine and I'm kind-of following the lr.
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On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining.
Hmm, don't think so. "Ded gaem" is used all the time and is never modded. Would be REALLY inconsistent if it were now
On February 27 2015 23:38 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining. I totally took your post as balance whine and I'm kind-of following the lr.
I find that strange because it would be the first balance whine you'd ever see me do.
Anyway, I PM'd him like Zealously suggested
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Austria24420 Posts
On February 27 2015 21:43 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:On February 27 2015 21:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:35 sharkie wrote:
btw herO > Rain in every possible way
herO most consistent protoss of the last two years! If only he could PvP at a good level. If only his brain wouldn't default into flipping coins so often when he has like the best macro game of all Protoss. He doesn't in PvP. herO is not the best PvPer when it becomes a macro game? What?
Just got back to this. He is not and he is nowhere near that. herO makes basic decisionmaking mistakes in pvp macro games that the best PvPers wouldn't make.
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On February 27 2015 23:39 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining. Hmm, don't think so. "Ded gaem" is used all the time and is never modded. Would be REALLY inconsistent if it were now
They don't mod "ded gaem"? Ok, that is probably the reason, why I'm not a mod, the forum would be empty within 3 weeks.
On February 27 2015 23:38 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining. I totally took your post as balance whine and I'm kind-of following the lr.
I would as well, coming from a random (or a known balance whiner), but normally not from Penev.
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On February 27 2015 23:07 Samx wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On February 27 2015 22:58 Rollora wrote:[/
Widow mine still should be redesigned. It makes too many kills too fast and it doesn't require that much micro compared to other harassement options (and not much of an investment compared to them).
. Fixed.
Compared to oracle, WM can be easily countered, and you need to get it in before it gets sniped (which happens easily) you can pull off your drones (so you max lose ONE) and so on and so on.
Oracle can kill many units, force lots of torrets and so on and so on.
Oracle outruns even stimmed marines, an oracle takes forever to get over the map (need 2 buildings for a drop, so way more tech investment), then you need to burrow it and HOPE it gets some kills (only if opponent is asleep).
Fixed
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On February 27 2015 23:42 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:39 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining. Hmm, don't think so. "Ded gaem" is used all the time and is never modded. Would be REALLY inconsistent if it were now They don't mod "ded gaem"? Ok, that is probably the reason, why I'm not a mod, the forum would be empty within 3 weeks.
Well, not if it's used sarcastically
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On February 27 2015 23:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 21:43 OtherWorld wrote:On February 27 2015 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:On February 27 2015 21:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:35 sharkie wrote:
btw herO > Rain in every possible way
herO most consistent protoss of the last two years! If only he could PvP at a good level. If only his brain wouldn't default into flipping coins so often when he has like the best macro game of all Protoss. He doesn't in PvP. herO is not the best PvPer when it becomes a macro game? What? Just got back to this. He is not and he is nowhere near that. herO makes basic decisionmaking mistakes in pvp macro games that the best PvPers wouldn't make.
Hmm who are the best macro PvPers then? (legit question, I suck at PvP analysis/knowledge)
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On February 27 2015 23:44 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:42 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:39 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 22:45 Penev wrote:
Balanced gaem
User was warned for this post You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining. Hmm, don't think so. "Ded gaem" is used all the time and is never modded. Would be REALLY inconsistent if it were now They don't mod "ded gaem"? Ok, that is probably the reason, why I'm not a mod, the forum would be empty within 3 weeks. Well, not if it's used sarcastically
Hmm, again, that is the reason, I'm not a mod. If I ever get a job on TL, I'd probably just perm ban the first 20 people, who use "rekted" and get stripped of my authorities again.
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On February 27 2015 23:34 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 22:58 Rollora wrote:SC2 simply too volatile/random. That is why I hate it so often. BUT: Result is not unexpected, since Artosis bet on Maru Cheeses and allins are too strong. I used to say the better player doesn't always win and then the answer was clear "it is also a sign of a better player to choose the right strategy". Yeah well true that but there are too many strong openers for toss that you can choose and still switch to macro (so not even really a allin/cheese) and that is what I hate about it: Can't prepare for everything as terran, and even if scouted somethimes the build order just outright kills you. That (SC2 being so volatile) is IMO the reason why we don't see players dominating over a long period of time although being totally on top of their micro and macro. However, since Parting is a great player he deserves it as well, I just wished he beat Maru in a macro game and not cheese, which I always consider cheap wins. And there is this Protoss Bullshit thread... Oracle still should be redesigned. It makes too many kills too fast and it doesn't require that much micro compared to other harassement options (and not much of an investment compared to them). On Marus side I question his decision making, as he must know in a macro game he wins against Parting, so why not go for a safer opening. But what is safer then reaper expand on the other side? Since they won't fix many of the unit design problems (the game may be balanced but its unstable and volatile) with the addon, and even the slightest inbalances in pro play get really huge in lower levels (an easy to control but hard to defend against harass unit) the reason why so many people stopped playing and watchin sc2 is simply the frustration it gives you. None of us is Korean Pro Level and therefore things that already look imba on the streams and VODs really are imba at lower leagues. I wished with the addon, the game gets more like BW again, where 1 misclick in a fight didn't end the game but you could regain lead with several well done other clicks and micro and such and you had the chance to come back in the game just by being better in mechanics. Since the announcement of LOTV I cannot expect that sort of developement for SC2 anymore. So I guess I'll just wait for SC3 then, since there is no other RTS around (Grey Goo?) that is as good and fascinating as SC to me. About the volatility part: Just looking at the last 3 months (Since 1st of december), Innovation had a win rate of 78% in maps and 85 % in matches against korean opponents. For Life, it is 67%/72%, for Maru 65%/69%. I have no bw numbers, but I doubt, that they would have constantly been over 90% either. Keep in mind, the stats above are including bo1s, in would probably be even better in bo3+.
The winrate isn't what's bothering me.
Its the game they LOSE.
It is HOW they lose them. I just think cheese/allins are too strong and often hard to find/predict and defend and easy to execute.
But that is just my opinion and not necessary SC2 law.
I've seen so many players that win a tournament, and get kicked out of the next one (sometimes by a foreigner or really mediocre player) just because... well cheese, allins or whatever. This shouldn't be possible.
My BW memories could be tricked by nostalgia though. I just thought someone who was dominating as Flash and Jaedong isn't there in SC2 and will never be - because of the game design.
It is also because in most cases huge fights in SC2 are over in 2 secs and you in these 2 secs you got to do all the right moves and it FEELS (meaning it isn't necessary really the case), that you have to do way more in a huge battle in lategame as Terran vs Protoss deathball (like sorrounding, sniping with Ghosts or EMP, focussing of units, stutterstepping with ground army, extra stutter stepping with medivacs (or no healing) etc etc. while the protoss a-moves forward with Chargelot/colossi/phonix/HT(again, it FEELS that way, I know it isn't that easy) makes some storms and the fight is over (cause bio just melts under storms).
In my memory fights in BW were longer and even though you stepped into a storm you could still do great stuff with ok micro and get out of it alive
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On February 27 2015 23:50 Xoronius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:44 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:42 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:39 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:36 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 23:34 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:32 opterown wrote:On February 27 2015 23:20 Penev wrote:On February 27 2015 23:17 Zealously wrote:On February 27 2015 23:11 Penev wrote:
[quote]
You know Kadaver; If you're not really following the LR you shouldn't mod. Jesus fucking christ If you think he isn't following the LR perhaps you should PM him instead of posting in the exact thread he isn't following Good point but the venting felt good To be fair even if we follow the LR your clarification is on the next page and it's quite easy to miss. Maybe you should just avoid posting things that are easily misconstrued in the first place and/or edit the actual post rather than follow up on the next page. It would be nice to pay some more respect to staff who don't have the easiest job :D I'm just saying Shellshock for instance would've immediately understood that it wasn't balance whining. I think the modding should be left to people who are actually in the thread Edit: I'm a bit salty because it's not the first time and it's always Kadaver.. You guys all have my highest respect (yes, even Kadaver)! I'm not a mod, but if I would have to take an eduacated guess, you probably were warned for using a meme, not for balance whining. Hmm, don't think so. "Ded gaem" is used all the time and is never modded. Would be REALLY inconsistent if it were now They don't mod "ded gaem"? Ok, that is probably the reason, why I'm not a mod, the forum would be empty within 3 weeks. Well, not if it's used sarcastically Hmm, again, that is the reason, I'm not a mod. If I ever get a job on TL, I'd probably just perm ban the first 20 people, who use "rekted" and get stripped of my authorities again.
Haha, I guess with this and the tournament format discussion we can conclude we're quite different people
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On February 27 2015 23:51 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:34 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 22:58 Rollora wrote:SC2 simply too volatile/random. That is why I hate it so often. BUT: Result is not unexpected, since Artosis bet on Maru Cheeses and allins are too strong. I used to say the better player doesn't always win and then the answer was clear "it is also a sign of a better player to choose the right strategy". Yeah well true that but there are too many strong openers for toss that you can choose and still switch to macro (so not even really a allin/cheese) and that is what I hate about it: Can't prepare for everything as terran, and even if scouted somethimes the build order just outright kills you. That (SC2 being so volatile) is IMO the reason why we don't see players dominating over a long period of time although being totally on top of their micro and macro. However, since Parting is a great player he deserves it as well, I just wished he beat Maru in a macro game and not cheese, which I always consider cheap wins. And there is this Protoss Bullshit thread... Oracle still should be redesigned. It makes too many kills too fast and it doesn't require that much micro compared to other harassement options (and not much of an investment compared to them). On Marus side I question his decision making, as he must know in a macro game he wins against Parting, so why not go for a safer opening. But what is safer then reaper expand on the other side? Since they won't fix many of the unit design problems (the game may be balanced but its unstable and volatile) with the addon, and even the slightest inbalances in pro play get really huge in lower levels (an easy to control but hard to defend against harass unit) the reason why so many people stopped playing and watchin sc2 is simply the frustration it gives you. None of us is Korean Pro Level and therefore things that already look imba on the streams and VODs really are imba at lower leagues. I wished with the addon, the game gets more like BW again, where 1 misclick in a fight didn't end the game but you could regain lead with several well done other clicks and micro and such and you had the chance to come back in the game just by being better in mechanics. Since the announcement of LOTV I cannot expect that sort of developement for SC2 anymore. So I guess I'll just wait for SC3 then, since there is no other RTS around (Grey Goo?) that is as good and fascinating as SC to me. About the volatility part: Just looking at the last 3 months (Since 1st of december), Innovation had a win rate of 78% in maps and 85 % in matches against korean opponents. For Life, it is 67%/72%, for Maru 65%/69%. I have no bw numbers, but I doubt, that they would have constantly been over 90% either. Keep in mind, the stats above are including bo1s, in would probably be even better in bo3+. The winrate isn't what's bothering me. Its the game they LOSE. It is HOW they lose them. I just think cheese/allins are too strong and often hard to find/predict and defend and easy to execute. But that is just my opinion and not necessary SC2 law. I've seen so many players that win a tournament, and get kicked out of the next one (sometimes by a foreigner or really mediocre player) just because... well cheese, allins or whatever. This shouldn't be possible. My BW memories could be tricked by nostalgia though. I just thought someone who was dominating as Flash and Jaedong isn't there in SC2 and will never be - because of the game design. It is also because in most cases huge fights in SC2 are over in 2 secs and you in these 2 secs you got to do all the right moves and it FEELS (meaning it isn't necessary really the case), that you have to do way more in a huge battle in lategame as Terran vs Protoss deathball (like sorrounding, sniping with Ghosts or EMP, focussing of units, stutterstepping with ground army, extra stutter stepping with medivacs (or no healing) etc etc. while the protoss a-moves forward with Chargelot/colossi/phonix/HT(again, it FEELS that way, I know it isn't that easy) makes some storms and the fight is over (cause bio just melts under storms). In my memory fights in BW were longer and even though you stepped into a storm you could still do great stuff with ok micro and get out of it alive
Right, we should determine the winner of a game by who has the highest EAPM instead of who is able to use his brain to think of a strategy and then use his mechanics to execute it. That way the mechanically superior player would never lose. How exciting.
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On February 27 2015 23:49 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:43 OtherWorld wrote:On February 27 2015 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:On February 27 2015 21:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:35 sharkie wrote:
btw herO > Rain in every possible way
herO most consistent protoss of the last two years! If only he could PvP at a good level. If only his brain wouldn't default into flipping coins so often when he has like the best macro game of all Protoss. He doesn't in PvP. herO is not the best PvPer when it becomes a macro game? What? Just got back to this. He is not and he is nowhere near that. herO makes basic decisionmaking mistakes in pvp macro games that the best PvPers wouldn't make. Hmm who are the best macro PvPers then? (legit question, I suck at PvP analysis/knowledge)
only Zest. DLO will prolly say Rain but he has no idea
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United States97276 Posts
I still don't understand why innovation got to make that last move in the group selection
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On February 27 2015 23:58 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:49 OtherWorld wrote:On February 27 2015 23:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:43 OtherWorld wrote:On February 27 2015 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:On February 27 2015 21:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:35 sharkie wrote:
btw herO > Rain in every possible way
herO most consistent protoss of the last two years! If only he could PvP at a good level. If only his brain wouldn't default into flipping coins so often when he has like the best macro game of all Protoss. He doesn't in PvP. herO is not the best PvPer when it becomes a macro game? What? Just got back to this. He is not and he is nowhere near that. herO makes basic decisionmaking mistakes in pvp macro games that the best PvPers wouldn't make. Hmm who are the best macro PvPers then? (legit question, I suck at PvP analysis/knowledge) only Zest. DLO will prolly say Rain but he has no idea
sOs and recently Creator are also up there.
On February 28 2015 00:01 Shellshock wrote:
I still don't understand why innovation got to make that last move in the group selection
Because he was the highest seeded player.
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On February 28 2015 00:01 Shellshock wrote:
I still don't understand why innovation got to make that last move in the group selection
When a machine faces an unknown parameter, it reacts in a strange and unpredictable way. It just hadn't been prepared to the potentiality of having to switch two players.
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On February 27 2015 23:51 Rollora wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:34 Xoronius wrote:On February 27 2015 22:58 Rollora wrote:SC2 simply too volatile/random. That is why I hate it so often. BUT: Result is not unexpected, since Artosis bet on Maru Cheeses and allins are too strong. I used to say the better player doesn't always win and then the answer was clear "it is also a sign of a better player to choose the right strategy". Yeah well true that but there are too many strong openers for toss that you can choose and still switch to macro (so not even really a allin/cheese) and that is what I hate about it: Can't prepare for everything as terran, and even if scouted somethimes the build order just outright kills you. That (SC2 being so volatile) is IMO the reason why we don't see players dominating over a long period of time although being totally on top of their micro and macro. However, since Parting is a great player he deserves it as well, I just wished he beat Maru in a macro game and not cheese, which I always consider cheap wins. And there is this Protoss Bullshit thread... Oracle still should be redesigned. It makes too many kills too fast and it doesn't require that much micro compared to other harassement options (and not much of an investment compared to them). On Marus side I question his decision making, as he must know in a macro game he wins against Parting, so why not go for a safer opening. But what is safer then reaper expand on the other side? Since they won't fix many of the unit design problems (the game may be balanced but its unstable and volatile) with the addon, and even the slightest inbalances in pro play get really huge in lower levels (an easy to control but hard to defend against harass unit) the reason why so many people stopped playing and watchin sc2 is simply the frustration it gives you. None of us is Korean Pro Level and therefore things that already look imba on the streams and VODs really are imba at lower leagues. I wished with the addon, the game gets more like BW again, where 1 misclick in a fight didn't end the game but you could regain lead with several well done other clicks and micro and such and you had the chance to come back in the game just by being better in mechanics. Since the announcement of LOTV I cannot expect that sort of developement for SC2 anymore. So I guess I'll just wait for SC3 then, since there is no other RTS around (Grey Goo?) that is as good and fascinating as SC to me. About the volatility part: Just looking at the last 3 months (Since 1st of december), Innovation had a win rate of 78% in maps and 85 % in matches against korean opponents. For Life, it is 67%/72%, for Maru 65%/69%. I have no bw numbers, but I doubt, that they would have constantly been over 90% either. Keep in mind, the stats above are including bo1s, in would probably be even better in bo3+. The winrate isn't what's bothering me. Its the game they LOSE. It is HOW they lose them. I just think cheese/allins are too strong and often hard to find/predict and defend and easy to execute. But that is just my opinion and not necessary SC2 law. I've seen so many players that win a tournament, and get kicked out of the next one (sometimes by a foreigner or really mediocre player) just because... well cheese, allins or whatever. This shouldn't be possible.My BW memories could be tricked by nostalgia though. I just thought someone who was dominating as Flash and Jaedong isn't there in SC2 and will never be - because of the game design. It is also because in most cases huge fights in SC2 are over in 2 secs and you in these 2 secs you got to do all the right moves and it FEELS (meaning it isn't necessary really the case), that you have to do way more in a huge battle in lategame as Terran vs Protoss deathball (like sorrounding, sniping with Ghosts or EMP, focussing of units, stutterstepping with ground army, extra stutter stepping with medivacs (or no healing) etc etc. while the protoss a-moves forward with Chargelot/colossi/phonix/HT(again, it FEELS that way, I know it isn't that easy) makes some storms and the fight is over (cause bio just melts under storms). In my memory fights in BW were longer and even though you stepped into a storm you could still do great stuff with ok micro and get out of it alive
I don't really want to argue game design in comparism to bw (game speed, cheeses and stuff), because my knowledge of bw is basically non-existent and thus my opinion is negligable anyways. But just towards the bold point: the reason for that is simply, that there are a lot more tourneys in Sc2. If everyone in bw would fly out to a tourney somewhere, every second weekend, there would have been more results and probably a few fluctuations as well. Also the bw foreign scene is a lot weaker than the SC2 (or WC3) one because of this , so foreigners knocking out koreans more often in SC2 is just natural.
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United States97276 Posts
On February 28 2015 00:02 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2015 23:58 sharkie wrote:On February 27 2015 23:49 OtherWorld wrote:On February 27 2015 23:41 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:43 OtherWorld wrote:On February 27 2015 21:40 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:38 Big J wrote:On February 27 2015 21:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:On February 27 2015 21:35 sharkie wrote:
btw herO > Rain in every possible way
herO most consistent protoss of the last two years! If only he could PvP at a good level. If only his brain wouldn't default into flipping coins so often when he has like the best macro game of all Protoss. He doesn't in PvP. herO is not the best PvPer when it becomes a macro game? What? Just got back to this. He is not and he is nowhere near that. herO makes basic decisionmaking mistakes in pvp macro games that the best PvPers wouldn't make. Hmm who are the best macro PvPers then? (legit question, I suck at PvP analysis/knowledge) only Zest. DLO will prolly say Rain but he has no idea sOs and recently Creator are also up there. Show nested quote +On February 28 2015 00:01 Shellshock wrote:
I still don't understand why innovation got to make that last move in the group selection Because he was the highest seeded player.
but it's a ridiculous advantage that they introduced which was never in a previous season. As the highest seeded player he already got to pick the easiest player to face first.
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EPT
