On November 22 2014 05:46 10bulgares wrote: It looks like some people are accepting that men threaten to rape other men just so they can threaten women too.
So you are claiming that he was just about to buy the plane tickets to Sweden to rape her?
The tournament organizers have all the rights to ban players as they seem fit, but the are not exempt from criticism.
On November 22 2014 05:46 10bulgares wrote: It looks like some people are accepting that men threaten to rape other men just so they can threaten women too.
Well played sir, well played. There are always a couple people who will defend the shitties parts of "gamer culture", whatever that is.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Wasn't there already a big topic on this site some years ago, in which pretty much everyone agreed that we should stop using "rape" even in trash talk context, because it is immature, insensitive and casts a bad light on esports?
I can't believe we're back discussing this. The decision of the tournament organizers was pretty much the only possible given their sponsors and it was also the right one and I applaud them for the fast decision.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
You should look up my posting history. But I save you the time and just quote my own post.
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
I know it's a law. I also know they're teenagers being sent to prison whose only "crime" is posting stupid shit on the internet. just because its a law, doesn't mean its right.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Here's a good video on why hate speech laws are bad:
On November 22 2014 06:00 sparklewolf wrote: just so we're all clear for next time
what are the acceptable forms of trash talk for women in sc2?
is trash talk even allowed when dealing with female players? what exactly isn't problematic
if you're going to use the phrase "rape a girl" then you might want to do it in a tournament that isn't hosted in a country where it's a huge topic of debate every day in media. And especially when that tournament is fronted by huge companies that won't want to touch the tournament and perhaps esports with a 10 foot pole, if this isn't dealt with in the harshest way possible.
On November 22 2014 06:00 sparklewolf wrote: just so we're all clear for next time
what are the acceptable forms of trash talk for women in sc2?
is trash talk even allowed when dealing with female players? what exactly isn't problematic
Normal trash talk about in game stuff.
Hell, as odd as it is, I'd even say stuff like kill and murder are more appropriate, they at least have context within the game (you are killing your opponent in game)
On November 22 2014 06:00 sparklewolf wrote: just so we're all clear for next time
what are the acceptable forms of trash talk for women in sc2?
is trash talk even allowed when dealing with female players? what exactly isn't problematic
On twitter? Anything that you would want your mother reading? In person, don't be an asshole and maybe don't saying your going to figuratively assault a women sexually.
Guys, this isn't rocket science here, use common sense.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
EPT
