Group A Wednesday, Nov 19 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) Group B Thursday, Nov 20 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) Group C Friday, Nov 21 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00) Group D Saturday, Nov 22 5:00pm GMT (GMT+00:00)
On November 19 2014 19:19 J. Corsair wrote: Damn $10,000 for the winner and 3 of four groups are TBD? WTF???
Wasn't $12,000? Yesterday in stream Demuslim said that first price got $12,000, he mentioned because is was more that tournaments like DH give to first place, was he wrong?
I don't even know who to root for, I really want Dayshi to do well, but I am also loving MMA's resurgence, and then there's Solar who is just the most awesome person ever.
i dont know a lot about lilbow but i know ive heard before he was apparently the naniwa account on EU with an insane winrate and now he beats solar who supposedly has some of the worlds best zvp. whats holding lilbow back from being a top foreigner if he's so talented? just inconsistent?
On November 21 2014 04:59 brickrd wrote: i dont know a lot about lilbow but i know ive heard before he was apparently the naniwa account on EU with an insane winrate and now he beats solar who supposedly has some of the worlds best zvp. whats holding lilbow back from being a top foreigner if he's so talented? just inconsistent?
He's still not used to the tournament environment, I guess. Nerves, lack of preparation, exploitable weaknesses - whatever holds him back, I'm sure it's something that will vanish with time and experience.
On November 21 2014 04:59 brickrd wrote: i dont know a lot about lilbow but i know ive heard before he was apparently the naniwa account on EU with an insane winrate and now he beats solar who supposedly has some of the worlds best zvp. whats holding lilbow back from being a top foreigner if he's so talented? just inconsistent?
He's still not used to the tournament environment, I guess. Nerves, lack of preparation, exploitable weaknesses - whatever holds him back, I'm sure it's something that will vanish with time and experience.
Except for the "it'll go away with time" part, you nailed it. It doesn't always go away with time, but things like nerves and build variation are the difference. A build that wrecks on ladder can often be predicted in tournaments, and a build that can surprise you in a tournament is too inconsistent on ladder. And, of course, when you're not thinking about "how do I beat this random Zerg", but rather, "how do I beat Solar", that changes your whole mindset. If Lilbow could get onto a team that sticks, he could become great. But then, he could just as easily become Demuslism.
On November 21 2014 04:59 brickrd wrote: i dont know a lot about lilbow but i know ive heard before he was apparently the naniwa account on EU with an insane winrate and now he beats solar who supposedly has some of the worlds best zvp. whats holding lilbow back from being a top foreigner if he's so talented? just inconsistent?
He's still not used to the tournament environment, I guess. Nerves, lack of preparation, exploitable weaknesses - whatever holds him back, I'm sure it's something that will vanish with time and experience.
Except for the "it'll go away with time" part, you nailed it. It doesn't always go away with time, but things like nerves and build variation are the difference. A build that wrecks on ladder can often be predicted in tournaments, and a build that can surprise you in a tournament is too inconsistent on ladder. And, of course, when you're not thinking about "how do I beat this random Zerg", but rather, "how do I beat Solar", that changes your whole mindset. If Lilbow could get onto a team that sticks, he could become great. But then, he could just as easily become Demuslism.
Yeah, it's true that every player doesn't necessarily evolve in that direction, but I'm hoping for his sake that he pulls a Bunny!
Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
Which Korean tournament?
WCG 2011. 2-0d MarineKing before running into Mvp.
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
Which Korean tournament?
It's WCG 2011, just so you know. Don't think anyone answered you yet. He beat MarineKing
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
Which Korean tournament?
Since nobody has been kind enough to give you an answer yet, I'm pretty sure it was WCG 2011. If I remember correctly he beat Huk and Marineking even. He eventually lost to MVP though
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
Which Korean tournament?
Not sure if it's correct, so wait until we've confirmed, but I -believe- it's WCG 2011. First he won 2 to nothing vs MKP and then he met Mvp.
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
On November 22 2014 02:41 Circumstance wrote: Kas has one of the weirdest distinctions of any pro player - he is the only one to get a Bronze Triple Crown, taking 3rd place in tournaments in all 3 regions.
Which Korean tournament?
WCG 2011 iirc
Wasn't that the one where he beat MarineKing and Huk?
Ladies and gentlemen, I would now like to demonstrate in one Tweet why gaming still has prevalent negative stereotypes.
(Let it be noted that the blog Maddelisk wrote that led to this conversation specifically said the she did not even initiate any of the responses taken.)
Kas did something he shouldn't have and was punished for it. He most likely will not do that again. My personal recommendation is that we leave it at that and nip this in the bud.
On November 22 2014 04:14 Yhamm wrote: because someone in the past did worse doesn't mean that you should not punish it now, but means that it should have been punished before too.
except it wont be punished in the future either, unless the recipient is also a girl
it's bollocks, a reaction to events outside the game and wider cultural bullshit and a complete overreaction.
Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
you have a swedish (sweden, land of feminism and extreme gender equality) tournament with estrella, mcdonalds and comhem who are all HUGE (compared to what we normally get in esports) in terms of size... what did people think was going to happen? If they don't crush this completely they can kiss good bye to every sponsor tomorrow.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Yeah, but he didn't say those things. No shit, if he said something different something else might've happened. You can't just substitute one for the other.
On November 22 2014 04:08 Stijn wrote: I'm guessing there's some "be respectful towards your opponents" rule in there.
Do you think Idra saying his opponent in a tournament should've been raped with a tire iron would've gone over well?
How many times has XLord told his opponents to "prepare their anus"? He was never disq. for that either.
His opponents were probably never girls
That implies, that raping guys is ok. Which it isn't. I think everyone here is completely aware of the fact, that Kas is not actually trying to rape anyone, he was using a very disappropriate wording here, without malicious intent. Delete the tweet, tell him, what he said, and then make sure, he apologizes to Madde privately. Not only will this prevent drama, an apology between two people also is probably more sincere than publicly over twitter. But a disqualification here creates more drama/negative exposure, than the tweet would have originally have, espicially because it got deleted that fast. I hope Kas and Madde can sort things out, would be very unneccessary to have permanent bad blood here, because Kas forgot to use his brain, while typing a single tweet.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
On November 22 2014 04:11 Xoronius wrote: How many times has XLord told his opponents to "prepare their anus"? He was never disq. for that either.
While playing in a mayor? I kind of doubt that. But assuming that did happen? Not cool either, and to me it would warrant the same response, in any tournament setting.
This was far, far over the line what's okay to say in a context like this, or any context frankly. And if the tournament banned him for it I assume they also have the rules leverage to do that. And rightly so.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lorning wrote: Kas tweeted something stupid Kas deleted the tweet and probably apologized Shit is done
Let's leave it at that
No thanks. Double standards like this are a gaping failure of ethics and professional integrity. Kas might be willing to appreciate that someone took offense and he's sorry for being responsible for that, but someone taking offense doesn't mean that he actually did something immoral, let alone that he broke a rule. It's his freakin' twitter account we're talking about here, not even something he said in game, as a part of the actual tournament they are running. This is a huge over-extension of authority and there are damn good, and damn important reasons why we have a lack of precedent for this kind of twitter policing / tournament disqualification bs.
Well, I have to go take a test. Have fun formatting this mess on Liquipedia, and I hope (probably in vain) that we either have a productive discussion or that this blows over. And yes, I know neither one will happen, but a guy can hope, right?
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lorning wrote: Kas tweeted something stupid Kas deleted the tweet and probably apologized Shit is done
Let's leave it at that
It's his freakin' twitter account we're talking about here, not even something he said in game, as a part of the actual tournament they are running. This is a huge over-extension of authority and there are damn good, and damn important reasons why we have a lack of precedent for this kind of twitter policing / tournament disqualification bs.
It's obviously something he said in the context of the tournament series he was playing. if FragBite Masters intends to crack down on hurtful comments from player to player over the matches in their tournaments, there's no reason tweets shouldn't be part of that.
And the problem is not only that it's been said to a girl. It's the word "rape" in itself. If you know the person you're talking to will take it lightly, that's okay (whoever it is). But not to someone not close to you, and certainly not in public....
People are all feelings and no logic. That's probably why most people are newbs at SC? Factually xD If he said "murder" this wouldn't happen. I missed the memo where joking about murder was orders of magnitude less serious than joking about rape. This is such obviously arbitrary mob mentality crap. It's rather useless to comment on, though. Biases gonna bias.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
I just heard "rape" in Sweden is for example when Sex begins with a condom and ends without one? And other strange/strong laws which make alot of things to rape?
Nothing to say to the tweets, I think there will and was enough sad to them.
On November 22 2014 04:59 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Unless you're Parting saying you're gonna rape Avilo, then that shit makes #1 on reddit.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
Unless you're Parting saying you're gonna rape Avilo, then that shit makes #1 on reddit.
I forgot about that. Thats a good point. The double standard is crazy. Kas probably should have know though. Can't even say "shit" in their twitch chat without being warned or banned.
If there ought to be no room for trash talk in SC2 make rules that apply to everyone. Don't make individual calls like that. Pretty stupid by Fragbite Masters.
People's lack of understanding about where Free Speech ends (hint it's when you threaten another person) is pretty impressive. Not to mention the fact that no Americans are involved in this.
Rape is a hot button issue these days and for good reason. Stop pretending we live in a fantasy world where all threats are equal.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
What is an offensive handshake? Does it mean keeping your other hand in the pocket?
It's a reference to the Naniwa-Vortix-incident about 1-2 years ago and is a saying for an after-game-handshake iniciated by the winner, so kinda like offensive gg.
On November 22 2014 05:13 dcsoda wrote: People's lack of understanding about where Free Speech ends (hint it's when you threaten another person) is pretty impressive. Not to mention the fact that no Americans are involved in this.
Rape is a hot button issue these days and for good reason. Stop pretending we live in a fantasy world where all threats are equal.
The term "to rape someone" is not rarely used in SC2, so stop pretending we live in a fantasy world where an SC2 player who is going to "rape" someone (hint: it's meant winning vs someone) is actually implying to literally rape someone and making it public.
On November 22 2014 05:13 dcsoda wrote: People's lack of understanding about where Free Speech ends (hint it's when you threaten another person) is pretty impressive. Not to mention the fact that no Americans are involved in this.
Rape is a hot button issue these days and for good reason. Stop pretending we live in a fantasy world where all threats are equal.
On November 22 2014 05:13 dcsoda wrote: People's lack of understanding about where Free Speech ends (hint it's when you threaten another person) is pretty impressive. Not to mention the fact that no Americans are involved in this.
Not to mention the fact that your "Americans" are living in only one of many countries that have Free Speech in their constitution!?!? That last sentence about no Americans being involved in this is so out of place :D Thanks for being the stereotypical ignorant American.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
What is an offensive handshake? Does it mean keeping your other hand in the pocket?
It's a reference to the Naniwa-Vortix-incident about 1-2 years ago and is a saying for an after-game-handshake iniciated by the winner, so kinda like offensive gg.
I looked it up on googled and there was something about Bill Gates keeping his other hand in the pocket. But it also happenend in Naniwa vs. Polt:
On November 22 2014 05:13 dcsoda wrote: People's lack of understanding about where Free Speech ends (hint it's when you threaten another person) is pretty impressive. Not to mention the fact that no Americans are involved in this.
Rape is a hot button issue these days and for good reason. Stop pretending we live in a fantasy world where all threats are equal.
Plus, it's not like Kas went to jail. He just got banned from an e-sport competition. Are people going to use the freedom of speech argument when their mother will ground them?
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
Unless you're Parting saying you're gonna rape Avilo, then that shit makes #1 on reddit.
I think that's just as stupid, I'm a supporter of equality.
But not of freedom of speech. How virtuous.
Freedom of Speech:
a. only protects you from the government b. stops when you begin to personally threaten someone.
Yeah because he was actually tweeting TO maddelisk and sincerely threatening to rape her. Can you roll your eyes at yourself, for me, please. I don't even want to.
On November 22 2014 05:13 dcsoda wrote: People's lack of understanding about where Free Speech ends (hint it's when you threaten another person) is pretty impressive. Not to mention the fact that no Americans are involved in this.
Rape is a hot button issue these days and for good reason. Stop pretending we live in a fantasy world where all threats are equal.
Yeah, rape is a "hot button issue" and that means we should be more sensitive to jokes about that than we are about arguably worse crimes, like murder. I guess murder is just too played out to get offended by anymore. Also, see above.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
What is an offensive handshake? Does it mean keeping your other hand in the pocket?
It's a reference to the Naniwa-Vortix-incident about 1-2 years ago and is a saying for an after-game-handshake iniciated by the winner, so kinda like offensive gg.
I looked it up on googled and there was something about Bill Gates keeping his other hand in the pocket. But it also happenend in Naniwa vs. Polt: + Show Spoiler +
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic0KMaGFd4Q
Yes, might have happened there as well, but Nani-Vortix was the reason it got talked about more than it should have been talked about.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
Unless you're Parting saying you're gonna rape Avilo, then that shit makes #1 on reddit.
I think that's just as stupid, I'm a supporter of equality.
But not of freedom of speech. How virtuous.
Freedom of Speech:
a. only protects you from the government b. stops when you begin to personally threaten someone.
Yeah because he was actually tweeting TO maddelisk and sincerely threatening to rape her. Can you roll your eyes at yourself, for me, please. I don't even want to.
His intent has zero to do with it. It was obviously referring to her and if she felt threatened or uncomfortable by it then it's a problem.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community thy would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show's we are a mature and professional commumity.
That's the problem with this thinking. This isn't a higher standard. It's a double standard. It's a regression to create very unique exceptions to what kinds of language can and can't be tolerated, and how we will react to it, just for a specific topic. See the points I've made in the last few pages about how murder is not treated with the same seriousness.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
Unless you're Parting saying you're gonna rape Avilo, then that shit makes #1 on reddit.
I think that's just as stupid, I'm a supporter of equality.
But not of freedom of speech. How virtuous.
Freedom of Speech:
a. only protects you from the government b. stops when you begin to personally threaten someone.
Yeah because he was actually tweeting TO maddelisk and sincerely threatening to rape her. Can you roll your eyes at yourself, for me, please. I don't even want to.
His intent has zero to do with it. It was obviously referring to her and if she felt threatened or uncomfortable by it then it's a problem.
Let's be thorough in the logic you're relying on here. I'm pretty offended by the things you've just said. I'm uncomfortable. We have a problem, now.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community thy would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show's we are a mature and professional commumity.
Okay, obviously it was better here than it would have been in another community, but Scarlett did get shit quite bit from the SC2 community when she first popped up on the scene. It's not fair to say it was all "warm and welcome".
Stop pretending like SC2 is high and mighty above the rest. Are we slightly more mature overall? Sure, but not nearly as much as you think. Remember when Parting said he was gonna rape Avilo and he was a giant pussy? That shit made #1 on reddit and everyone thought it was fucking hilarious. We're not different.
If only Kas would have said it to some man rather than a woman. Silly of Kas to forget that rape jokes are only funny when done at the expense of other dudes.
On November 22 2014 05:05 Xoronius wrote: This drama can not end well: Let's focus on the more positive things in esports: + Show Spoiler +
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community thy would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show's we are a mature and professional commumity.
Okay, obviously it was better here than it would have been in another community, but Scarlett did get shit quite bit from the SC2 community when she first popped up on the scene. It's not fair to say it was all "warm and welcome".
Stop pretending like SC2 is high and mighty above the rest. Are we slightly more mature overall? Sure, but not nearly as much as you think. Remember when Parting said he was gonna rape Avilo and he was a giant pussy? That shit made #1 on reddit and everyone thought it was fucking hilarious. We're not different.
That was ok because avilo is a guy and unpopular >.>
So when some CS player "threatens" to destroy/kill/rape the enemy team, does he get disqualified too? Maybe even the police is called because he planning to run amok? Or, more likely, would nobody give a shit if no girls were on the team?
Banned as expected. Good on fragbite for not blinking and just pulling the trigger.
Edit: lol, at the people trying to say the ruling is bad. Trash talking is fine, but not in a super public place like twitter where you liken beating someone at sc2 to sexual assault. If your going to trash talk, so it like professional athletes, on the field and away from mics, not on twitter.
(Vote): Well, trash talk is trash talk - no more, no less - and part of esports (Vote): Tweet was harsh, but absolutely fine in its context from an ethics points of view (Vote): Tweet was inappropriate but shouldn't be as big of a deal as it is (Vote): Tweet was very inappropriate and should be punished as it was (Vote): Tweet was an absolute disgrace for esports and its community there should be even more consequences
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
On November 22 2014 05:35 Gr33d wrote: So when some CS player "threatens" to destroy/kill/rape the enemy team, does he get disqualified too? Maybe even the police is called because he planning to run amok? Or, more likely, would nobody give a shit if no girls were on the team?
If that CS player was in a sc2 tournament, he should definitely get disqualified. I'm not too familiar with the CS;GO community, but they seem to be on the younger side compared to the sc2 scene.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only do they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
I said socially tolerant also known as social civility. Here's one definition of being socially tolerant/civil:
Social civility is the ability for citizens to act in respectful ways for the shared expectation of a full-functioning societal unit. This civility is often described as a respect for others, a respect for the feelings of others, and, ultimately, unconditionally doing to and for others what we would have done unconditionally for ourselves (Hesselbein, 1997; Carter, 1998; Schatz, 2003a). A person illustrating civility is a giving, helping, empathic, and sensitive human being who genuinely values the worth and dignity of others. Within an atmosphere of civility, a community member feels a reasonable level of comfort and safety when walking the public venues of his/her community, e.g. stores, walkways, roads, etc. Source: http://susiewilson.wordpress.com/2011/05/03/social-tolerance-and-social-civility/
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
On November 22 2014 05:39 Plansix wrote: Banned as expected. Good on fragbite for not blinking and just pulling the trigger.
Edit: lol, at the people trying to say the ruling is bad. Trash talking is fine, but not in a super public place like twitter where you liken beating someone at sc2 to sexual assault. If your going to trash talk, so it like professional athletes, on the field and away from mics, not on twitter.
Yeah, seriously. I'm looking forward to see similar rulings in every tournament if so called professionals can't behave better than that. Silly Kas, who got a free ticket. Silly Nightend, who probably will never get one after this. I wonder who else will make a royal ass out of themselves before this day is over.
On November 22 2014 05:46 10bulgares wrote: It looks like some people are accepting that men threaten to rape other men just so they can threaten women too.
So you are claiming that he was just about to buy the plane tickets to Sweden to rape her?
The tournament organizers have all the rights to ban players as they seem fit, but the are not exempt from criticism.
On November 22 2014 05:46 10bulgares wrote: It looks like some people are accepting that men threaten to rape other men just so they can threaten women too.
Well played sir, well played. There are always a couple people who will defend the shitties parts of "gamer culture", whatever that is.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Wasn't there already a big topic on this site some years ago, in which pretty much everyone agreed that we should stop using "rape" even in trash talk context, because it is immature, insensitive and casts a bad light on esports?
I can't believe we're back discussing this. The decision of the tournament organizers was pretty much the only possible given their sponsors and it was also the right one and I applaud them for the fast decision.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
You should look up my posting history. But I save you the time and just quote my own post.
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
I know it's a law. I also know they're teenagers being sent to prison whose only "crime" is posting stupid shit on the internet. just because its a law, doesn't mean its right.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Here's a good video on why hate speech laws are bad:
On November 22 2014 06:00 sparklewolf wrote: just so we're all clear for next time
what are the acceptable forms of trash talk for women in sc2?
is trash talk even allowed when dealing with female players? what exactly isn't problematic
if you're going to use the phrase "rape a girl" then you might want to do it in a tournament that isn't hosted in a country where it's a huge topic of debate every day in media. And especially when that tournament is fronted by huge companies that won't want to touch the tournament and perhaps esports with a 10 foot pole, if this isn't dealt with in the harshest way possible.
On November 22 2014 06:00 sparklewolf wrote: just so we're all clear for next time
what are the acceptable forms of trash talk for women in sc2?
is trash talk even allowed when dealing with female players? what exactly isn't problematic
Normal trash talk about in game stuff.
Hell, as odd as it is, I'd even say stuff like kill and murder are more appropriate, they at least have context within the game (you are killing your opponent in game)
On November 22 2014 06:00 sparklewolf wrote: just so we're all clear for next time
what are the acceptable forms of trash talk for women in sc2?
is trash talk even allowed when dealing with female players? what exactly isn't problematic
On twitter? Anything that you would want your mother reading? In person, don't be an asshole and maybe don't saying your going to figuratively assault a women sexually.
Guys, this isn't rocket science here, use common sense.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I would get fired for saying something like that, even in jest. Consider this a preview to the grown up world where what you do matters.
Hell, people have been banned on TL for less. As long as you follow the golden rule (One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself ) here and in real life, you should be fine.
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
It's almost like context and nuance matter. Weird.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote: Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I would get fired for saying something like that, even in jest. Consider this a preview to the grown up world where what you do matters.
I don't know what you're trying to get at here.
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote: Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Its pretty clear I support fragbite masters decision. When you have hate speech laws and the government determines what offensive and puts people in prison for harming no one, I draw the line. Also you don't have to insult me personally to get your point across. I find it offensive. In fact, you should be imprisoned for that.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I would get fired for saying something like that, even in jest. Consider this a preview to the grown up world where what you do matters.
Hell, people have been banned on TL for less. As long as you follow the golden rule (One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself ) here and in real life, you should be fine.
Depends. Many people said, that Kas as someone whose first language isn't english, didn't correctly estimate the impact of his words - Bly confirmed that (+ Show Spoiler +
). With that knowledge, we could assume, that Kas wouldn't take much offense, if he had been the victim of that tweet and thus technically didn't break the golden rule.
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
And because of this, people are afraid that this is gonna ruin freedom of speech?
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
And because of this, people are afraid that this is gonna ruin freedom of speech?
Well, it got carried away quite a bit. If I would have to make a suggestion, invest your time this evening into Norcraft or smth, much more pleasant news there (+ Show Spoiler +
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
Unless you're Parting saying you're gonna rape Avilo, then that shit makes #1 on reddit.
I think that's just as stupid, I'm a supporter of equality.
But not of freedom of speech. How virtuous.
Freedom of Speech:
a. only protects you from the government b. stops when you begin to personally threaten someone.
Yeah because he was actually tweeting TO maddelisk and sincerely threatening to rape her. Can you roll your eyes at yourself, for me, please. I don't even want to.
His intent has zero to do with it. It was obviously referring to her and if she felt threatened or uncomfortable by it then it's a problem.
Except the ruling was made before she even responded or brought it up to the admins.
What Kas said was stupid and crude, but unless you're going to hold everyone to the same standard(specifically referencing Parting saying he was going to rape Avilo), then sit the fuck down.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I'm arguing that state imposed hate speech laws are bullshit. Sure, people won't like me, if i say "all black people are criminals" (which can be disproved by finding a counterexample) and thats perfectly find. All i'm saying is that i shouldn't be persecuted for this statement. Frankly, all i would do is offend some people and i'm saying is that there should be no right banning this kind of speech. You should really watch the video if you are interested in this kind of topic. There is also a discussion with Hitchens about that topic and i can link it if you care about it.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
--- This is probably why Targa didn't get banned.
You you are saying the so-called veterans are the only ones that don't get banned after such insults? Ever read any LR? Now I am sure you are just trolling me and laughing at how you get me every time.
I am now using the very own TL smiley which I can choose from
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
--- This is probably why Targa didn't get banned.
You you are saying the so-called veterans are the only ones that don't get banned after such insults? Ever read any LR? Now I am sure you are just trolling me and laughing at how you get me every time.
I am now using the very own TL smiley which I can choose from
and won't answer your troll posts any more.
Are we still friends? Can we at least agree to disagree? I feel like we were starting to understand one another...
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
--- This is probably why Targa didn't get banned.
You you are saying the so-called veterans are the only ones that don't get banned after such insults? Ever read any LR? Now I am sure you are just trolling me and laughing at how you get me every time.
I am now using the very own TL smiley which I can choose from
and won't answer your troll posts any more.
Are we still friends? Can we at least agree to disagree? I feel like we were starting to understand one another...
I know I should have realised earlier. Dumb me. Good troll though 9/10.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
Hate speech is defined by it's threatening nature and intent to create hostility toward a specific party. It's not just an opinion, but an effort to advocate harassment and violence towards that group.
Also, it should be pointed out that you can't use speech to say, start a riot or yell fire in a theater. The same applies to hate speech.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
I would say that you underestimate the power of speech. Check "radio mille colline" for an example.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I'm arguing that state imposed hate speech laws are bullshit. Sure, people won't like me, if i say "all black people are criminals" (which can be disproved by finding a counterexample) and thats perfectly find. All i'm saying is that i shouldn't be persecuted for this statement. Frankly, all i would do is offend some people and i'm saying is that there should be no right banning this kind of speech. You should really watch the video if you are interested in this kind of topic. There is also a discussion with Hitchens about that topic and i can link it if you care about it.
That's like just your opinion, man. And it's really off topic.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I'm arguing that state imposed hate speech laws are bullshit. Sure, people won't like me, if i say "all black people are criminals" (which can be disproved by finding a counterexample) and thats perfectly find. All i'm saying is that i shouldn't be persecuted for this statement. Frankly, all i would do is offend some people and i'm saying is that there should be no right banning this kind of speech. You should really watch the video if you are interested in this kind of topic. There is also a discussion with Hitchens about that topic and i can link it if you care about it.
That's like just your opinion, man. And it's really off topic.
I didn't start this whole free speech thing! I just pointed out that it doesn't fit in this case (on topic) and gave my opinion regarding these kinds of laws.
On November 22 2014 05:46 10bulgares wrote: It looks like some people are accepting that men threaten to rape other men just so they can threaten women too.
Looks to me like some people are being dishonest with themselves about whether this person was actually threatening someone with rape. And from that fallacy, acting like something really immoral took place here, and that someone is a bad person. This is so intellectually dishonest and indecent toward your fellow human.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
Hate speech is defined by it's threatening nature and intent to create hostility toward a specific party. It's not just an opinion, but an effort to advocate harassment and violence towards that group.
Also, it should be pointed out that you can't use speech to say, start a riot or yell fire in a theater. The same applies to hate speech.
Perhaps if cause and effect were so easily linked I support it but it isn't. Its not the same starting a riot or yelling fire in a theather because there people actually get hurt. With hate speech laws people are getting jail time for hurting nobody.
On November 22 2014 06:40 10bulgares wrote:
I would say that you underestimate the power of speech. Check "radio mille colline" for an example.
Thats a fair point. However, it goes both ways. Various government have silenced dissenters when they themselves carry out genocide or assassinations. I understand the power of speech well enough to know that I don't want to give the government power over it.
On November 22 2014 04:22 Yhamm wrote: [quote] your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
Hate speech is defined by it's threatening nature and intent to create hostility toward a specific party. It's not just an opinion, but an effort to advocate harassment and violence towards that group.
Also, it should be pointed out that you can't use speech to say, start a riot or yell fire in a theater. The same applies to hate speech.
Perhaps if cause and effect were so easily linked I support it but it isn't. Its not the same starting a riot or yelling fire in a theather because there people actually get hurt. With hate speech laws people are getting jail time for hurting nobody.
I would say that you underestimate the power of speech. Check "radio mille colline" for an example.
Thats a fair point. However, it goes both ways. Various government have silenced dissenters when they themselves carry out genocide or assassinations. I understand the power of speech well enough to know that I don't want to give the government power of it.
Of course I prefer the restrictions for freedom of speech to be minimal. My point is just that it doesn't look reasonable to me to advocate full freedom of speech. But that there should be a debate on the limits, absolutely.
On November 22 2014 05:46 10bulgares wrote: It looks like some people are accepting that men threaten to rape other men just so they can threaten women too.
Looks to me like some people are being dishonest with themselves about whether this person was actually threatening someone with rape. And from that fallacy, acting like something really immoral took place here, and that someone is a bad person. This is so intellectually dishonest and indecent toward your fellow human.
I was mostly referring to those people saying: "it happens all the time between men so it should be allowed towards women" instead of saying "that shit is dumb I wish it stops between men too now". Then if you prefer another word than "threat", be my guest.
On November 22 2014 05:46 10bulgares wrote: It looks like some people are accepting that men threaten to rape other men just so they can threaten women too.
Looks to me like some people are being dishonest with themselves about whether this person was actually threatening someone with rape. And from that fallacy, acting like something really immoral took place here, and that someone is a bad person. This is so intellectually dishonest and indecent toward your fellow human.
I was mostly referring to those people saying: "it happens all the time between men so it should be allowed towards women" instead of saying "that shit is dumb I wish it stops between men too now". Then if you prefer another word than "threat", be my guest.
On November 22 2014 04:22 Yhamm wrote: [quote] your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
Hate speech is defined by it's threatening nature and intent to create hostility toward a specific party. It's not just an opinion, but an effort to advocate harassment and violence towards that group.
Also, it should be pointed out that you can't use speech to say, start a riot or yell fire in a theater. The same applies to hate speech.
Perhaps if cause and effect were so easily linked I support it but it isn't. Its not the same starting a riot or yelling fire in a theather because there people actually get hurt. With hate speech laws people are getting jail time for hurting nobody.
I would say that you underestimate the power of speech. Check "radio mille colline" for an example.
Thats a fair point. However, it goes both ways. Various government have silenced dissenters when they themselves carry out genocide or assassinations. I understand the power of speech well enough to know that I don't want to give the government power over it.
Hate speech is illegal in many countries in Europe because of its usually racist or discriminatory nature, and only serves to create conflict. Also, racism and many forms of discrimination are illegal in many European countries, and carry prison sentences.
I doubt that the founding fathers and enlightenment philosophers had vitriol and hate in mind when they drew up the US Constitution. What they probably meant was the freedom to disagree with government and people in a position of power, and to be able to voice that opinion without being persecuted for it.
Freedom of speech also entails responsibility for the consequences of what you say. Most of these internet advocates of free speech just want to be able to sprout nonsense, vitriol and hate without consequence. This has nothing to do with free speech at all actually. If anything, it makes an absolute travesty out of it.
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
Hate speech is defined by it's threatening nature and intent to create hostility toward a specific party. It's not just an opinion, but an effort to advocate harassment and violence towards that group.
Also, it should be pointed out that you can't use speech to say, start a riot or yell fire in a theater. The same applies to hate speech.
Perhaps if cause and effect were so easily linked I support it but it isn't. Its not the same starting a riot or yelling fire in a theather because there people actually get hurt. With hate speech laws people are getting jail time for hurting nobody.
On November 22 2014 06:40 10bulgares wrote:
I would say that you underestimate the power of speech. Check "radio mille colline" for an example.
Thats a fair point. However, it goes both ways. Various government have silenced dissenters when they themselves carry out genocide or assassinations. I understand the power of speech well enough to know that I don't want to give the government power over it.
Hate speech is illegal in many countries in Europe because of its usually racist or discriminatory nature, and only serves to create conflict. Also, racism and many forms of discrimination are illegal in many European countries, and carry prison sentences.
I doubt that the founding fathers and enlightenment philosophers had vitriol and hate in mind when they drew up the US Constitution. What they probably meant was the freedom to disagree with government and people in a position of power, and to be able to voice that opinion without being persecuted for it.
Freedom of speech also entails responsibility for the consequences of what you say. Most of these internet advocates of free speech just want to be able to sprout nonsense, vitriol and hate without consequence. This has nothing to do with free speech at all actually. If anything, it makes an absolute travesty out of it.
People with unpopular, controversial and/or backwards viewpoints should not have jail time for just voicing these opinions. There should be discourse. As such, avoiding "conflict" is a not good justification for government control over speech. Many viewpoints held today were controversial and caused conflicts at some point in the past.
The founding fathers did not all have the same view points when they drew up the constitution. They also voiced plenty of nonsense, vitriol and hate to each other. Also its kinda to to disagree with your government if they can regulate speech.
Its not freedom from responsibility. You can say what you want and people can choose to associate themselves with you or not. Your company can fire you. You can be admonished/mocked/shamed/or wahtever publicly. What should be free from is prosecution from the government, especially if you've never hurt anyone. For example, little girl was kidnapped. Drunk 19 year old posts stupid shit mocking it. Should he get 12 weeks prison for it? For harming no one? I don't think so. Would I associate my self with him? No. I'm offended that you're implying I'm only saying this because I want to sprout nonsense, vitriol and hate without consequence. Do I think you should be locked in a cage for offending me? No.
Fragbite is a private Swedish company. They are sponsored by companies like McDonalds and Estrella. They don't want to risk losing their sponsors by having Kas in their tournament after his unpopular incident.
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
Hate speech is defined by it's threatening nature and intent to create hostility toward a specific party. It's not just an opinion, but an effort to advocate harassment and violence towards that group.
Also, it should be pointed out that you can't use speech to say, start a riot or yell fire in a theater. The same applies to hate speech.
Perhaps if cause and effect were so easily linked I support it but it isn't. Its not the same starting a riot or yelling fire in a theather because there people actually get hurt. With hate speech laws people are getting jail time for hurting nobody.
On November 22 2014 06:40 10bulgares wrote:
I would say that you underestimate the power of speech. Check "radio mille colline" for an example.
Thats a fair point. However, it goes both ways. Various government have silenced dissenters when they themselves carry out genocide or assassinations. I understand the power of speech well enough to know that I don't want to give the government power over it.
Hate speech is illegal in many countries in Europe because of its usually racist or discriminatory nature, and only serves to create conflict. Also, racism and many forms of discrimination are illegal in many European countries, and carry prison sentences.
I doubt that the founding fathers and enlightenment philosophers had vitriol and hate in mind when they drew up the US Constitution. What they probably meant was the freedom to disagree with government and people in a position of power, and to be able to voice that opinion without being persecuted for it.
Freedom of speech also entails responsibility for the consequences of what you say. Most of these internet advocates of free speech just want to be able to sprout nonsense, vitriol and hate without consequence. This has nothing to do with free speech at all actually. If anything, it makes an absolute travesty out of it.
not to mention fragbite masters is a private organization with 100% freedom to make their own rules of conduct and decency. freedom of speech as you said applies to institutional oppression of ideas by a government or ruling body. if i tell you to get the fuck out of my house because you used language that offends me then i'm not oppressing your freedom of speech, i'm exercising my right to tell you to get the fuck out of my house.
people who use "freedom of speech" to defend abuse and hate speech are uneducated and don't understand what freedom of speech is or what it's for. what they mean is they don't want to be accountable for their speech and they don't want to think about the consequences of their actions because they're too lazy and selfish to view things from another person's perspective and understand why something could be hurtful to another person
If I say "That Christian is so dumb", and I meant the actor from Batman, no christian, in the sense of believing in the Holy Trinitiy, can be offended. If one is, he or she has got me wrong. Period.
Also, if I say to someone while playing: "I am gonna destroy you", he or she must not understand me in the sense of throwing a bomb at him. If one understands it as a physical threat, she or he is wrong. Period, again.
So, if Kas meant to violate Maddelisk, I think he should be legally persecuted. Disqualifying him for just using the term rape in the gamer context is totally unacceptable for me. Maddelisk is free to tell him privately that she felt offended. Optimally he would say to her he meant it in the sense of winning over her.
Please understand Maddelisk. She is coming from a very twisted society, the Swedish one, a society pretending to be superliberal and left wing while feverishly suppressing every other opinion outside of its own ethical world, calling that tolerance. So you must not blame her for being offended, but her social context. So, written in bold letters, shitstorming Maddelisk is highly inappropriate. (both the way we understand shitstorming as onliners, and in the sense some other people might understand it, i.e. driving to her, switching on a strong fan and blowing poop at her.) In fact, there a very few cases where I would support a shitstorm.
Yet it cannot be in her interest to be the one who got a free win over a gamer that clearly did not mean to harm her physically or threaten her in real life. He meant, as every gamer will know, that he will overwhelmingly win over her. There is no doubt about that.
Also, if we persecute people because we misunderstood them, we are in the horrid danger of slipping into a totalitarian society.
That said, I will not watch any fragbite masters tournament anymore. They said the vote was unanimous, which means (1) no one in their company can understand gamer slang and (2) they have to be blamed for making the whole thing worse by potentially exposing Maddelisk to a mob that blames her for something she is not responsible for.
Goddamn it. I get home and this Kas shit has gotten out of hand. Thread closed, Destiny and Scarlett getting involved .... What should have been a minor issues has been blown into a full fledged shit storm. Every Twitter "personality" who has gotten involved can fuck right off.... Such bullshit
No one gets even gives a shit about this tournament anymore...lets go back to THAT .....
Please people stop talking about how this thread got off-topic so much and how we don't like people focusing the attention towards things outside of the actual games!!!
Oh but yeah let's get hyped for Mana, and Bling... and uh Zanster... and Gun... HYPE!
EPT
![[image loading]](http://static.fragbite.se/globalimages/a5af17db99dab3489bb1339f7e2b7537d8e40c54-3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r9ZH0.png)
FBMsc2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MM4jy.png)
MorroW - 
StarDust - 
Bly![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WdLE8.png)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2-6Yj-CcAA-pcw.png)
or 
and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
