On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I would get fired for saying something like that, even in jest. Consider this a preview to the grown up world where what you do matters.
Hell, people have been banned on TL for less. As long as you follow the golden rule (One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself ) here and in real life, you should be fine.
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
It's almost like context and nuance matter. Weird.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Here's a good video on why hate speech laws are bad:
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote: Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I would get fired for saying something like that, even in jest. Consider this a preview to the grown up world where what you do matters.
I don't know what you're trying to get at here.
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote: Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Its pretty clear I support fragbite masters decision. When you have hate speech laws and the government determines what offensive and puts people in prison for harming no one, I draw the line. Also you don't have to insult me personally to get your point across. I find it offensive. In fact, you should be imprisoned for that.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
Funny that silencing anything you find offensive is viewed as "tolerant".
It's funnier how people try to use tolerance as a defense to say offensive shit. We are tolerant if different life styles and cultures. Being an asshole is neither of those.
You're offending me right now. You should be imprisoned.
Nah, your just beig a whiner because someone got punished for beig an idiot on twitter and now some people are acting like they are being repressed. Get over it folks, you can't tell girls you are going figuratively rape them at SC2 on twitter and not catch some heat for it.
Hmmm......
On November 22 2014 05:04 royalroadweed wrote:
Its a private organization. Unless they didn't outline the code of conduct to Kas, its well within their right to disqualify a player.
Yep that sounds like I'm whining about someone being punished for saying stupid shit.
I would get fired for saying something like that, even in jest. Consider this a preview to the grown up world where what you do matters.
Hell, people have been banned on TL for less. As long as you follow the golden rule (One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself ) here and in real life, you should be fine.
Depends. Many people said, that Kas as someone whose first language isn't english, didn't correctly estimate the impact of his words - Bly confirmed that (+ Show Spoiler +
). With that knowledge, we could assume, that Kas wouldn't take much offense, if he had been the victim of that tweet and thus technically didn't break the golden rule.
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
And because of this, people are afraid that this is gonna ruin freedom of speech?
On November 22 2014 06:09 KoRStarvid wrote: I don't understand what the big deal is here. Kas did a stupid (but probably not malignant) thing and got punished for it. Isn't that the end of the story? Why are people upset?
Because he got punished and other people in completely different contexts and situations at some point werent
And because of this, people are afraid that this is gonna ruin freedom of speech?
Well, it got carried away quite a bit. If I would have to make a suggestion, invest your time this evening into Norcraft or smth, much more pleasant news there (+ Show Spoiler +
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
On November 22 2014 04:57 PepsiMaxxxx wrote: The rape word is almost as frowned upon in Sweden as the offensive hand shake.
Bad jokes aside, the tournament acted correctly. You can't say that and get away with it without repercussions.
Unless you're Parting saying you're gonna rape Avilo, then that shit makes #1 on reddit.
I think that's just as stupid, I'm a supporter of equality.
But not of freedom of speech. How virtuous.
Freedom of Speech:
a. only protects you from the government b. stops when you begin to personally threaten someone.
Yeah because he was actually tweeting TO maddelisk and sincerely threatening to rape her. Can you roll your eyes at yourself, for me, please. I don't even want to.
His intent has zero to do with it. It was obviously referring to her and if she felt threatened or uncomfortable by it then it's a problem.
Except the ruling was made before she even responded or brought it up to the admins.
What Kas said was stupid and crude, but unless you're going to hold everyone to the same standard(specifically referencing Parting saying he was going to rape Avilo), then sit the fuck down.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I'm arguing that state imposed hate speech laws are bullshit. Sure, people won't like me, if i say "all black people are criminals" (which can be disproved by finding a counterexample) and thats perfectly find. All i'm saying is that i shouldn't be persecuted for this statement. Frankly, all i would do is offend some people and i'm saying is that there should be no right banning this kind of speech. You should really watch the video if you are interested in this kind of topic. There is also a discussion with Hitchens about that topic and i can link it if you care about it.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
--- This is probably why Targa didn't get banned.
You you are saying the so-called veterans are the only ones that don't get banned after such insults? Ever read any LR? Now I am sure you are just trolling me and laughing at how you get me every time.
I am now using the very own TL smiley which I can choose from
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
On November 22 2014 05:26 ptbl wrote: Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes. It's just the way it is. A lot of the fan base is older and more mature. Think about it. If Scarlett was in any other scene like the fighting game or CoD community, do you think she would receive a warm and welcoming reception. Nope.
So, Kas talking about "raping another person" in a game might not seem a big deal to other people, but in the sc2 community we take it very seriously. We are not 14 year olds who makes jokes about raping people. Most of us are in our twenties, so we understand the social implication of people's words and actions.
Can you imagine, someone from our scene yelling "fuck her in the pussy" out loud at a tournament? They would get crucified. While, in the other esports community they would laugh and joke about it.
So, I am glad we are taking what Kas said seriously. It show us that we are a mature and professional community.
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
--- This is probably why Targa didn't get banned.
You you are saying the so-called veterans are the only ones that don't get banned after such insults? Ever read any LR? Now I am sure you are just trolling me and laughing at how you get me every time.
I am now using the very own TL smiley which I can choose from
and won't answer your troll posts any more.
Are we still friends? Can we at least agree to disagree? I feel like we were starting to understand one another...
Then there must be one way to go for all incidents like that, and obviously there isn't. I don't like how you define what "we" are and how "we" think as a community about (obvious) trash talking. How can you even compare someone yelling "Fuck her in the pussy" to someone tweeting to rape someone in the next match!? Really I don't want you to speak for our whole community as much as you wouldn't like me doing so.
The majority of Team Liquid posters are above 20 and have some kind of undergrad experience if not more. A plurality come from Western Europe. Europe, especially in the west is a lot of more socially liberal and tolerant. They look down upon remarks that are insensitive and offensive. Here was the census that was taken last year http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013
So yes, I would say that a majority of our community is a lot more mature and older. Not only to they have some kind of higher education, but they hail from an area that is more socially tolerant and accepting.
So you are saying SC2 community equals Team Liquid community?
Wow. You have no idea.
I would say TL plays a large role in the esports scene of SC2. TL is the main hub for anything that is esports for sc2. If you follow tournaments and pro players, you probably have visited TL. You might not have posted, but you probably have read and lurked.
Remember, we aren't talking about the casual fan base. We are talking about a specific pie. A much smaller pie that is devoted to sc2 esports.
So I just went through the census you linked to (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/general/427622-graphs-tl-census-2013) and I have to say your conclusions can not be drawn by the data you yourself just presented and I hope you are not working as a scientist.
Guys, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than other esport's scenes.
You are clearly implying to speak for the SC2 scene as a whole (Comparing to other esport's scenes). Stop bullshitting. Make a statement and stick with it. You cannot be taken seriously, neither by your logic, your plainout wrong data summary nor by the consistency in what you say.
Umm, have you read TL's Ten Commandments? It talks about being respectful and not insulting others. TL has a strict moderation policy. Of course TL would attract people who are more mature. All the people who are less socially tolerant would have been banned by now. They would have been weeded out. Here's the link to the Commandments http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/17883-tlnet-ten-commandments
So, if Kas posted what he posted on twitter to TL, he would definitely have been temped banned.
It's getting absurd. Of course not all the people who are less socially tolerant are banned by now. First because not all of them write about it, but are still part of the community, so you wouldn't even know, second you, like everybody else, know:
There is this very own TL Emoticon free to use and choose from: or and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
On October 23 2014 05:55 TargA wrote: holy fuck you are stupid
Of course Targa was not banned as you imply. You are just blind-folded and pretending an elitist society which (thank god) is not the realistic description of the TL community, and ofc not the SC2 scene as a whole. Stop writing this BS. Take off your rainbow glasses.
Targa would fall under the sixth commandment. Idra also had a lot more leeway than the average forum user. Here's what the sixth commandment says
Respect forum veterans.
All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have been with us longer. This doesn't mean they get to do whatever they want, but they do get the benefit of the doubt. The same goes for "known" professional players or personalities. If we know you and you've been around and contributed, you are much less likely to have your posts or account moderated.
In practice, this policy means a user who has thousands of posts can get away with breaking a few minor rules with just a warning while a new user might be banned. Is this unfair? Probably. But that's how it works here, longevity and contribution are rewarded.
--- This is probably why Targa didn't get banned.
You you are saying the so-called veterans are the only ones that don't get banned after such insults? Ever read any LR? Now I am sure you are just trolling me and laughing at how you get me every time.
I am now using the very own TL smiley which I can choose from
and won't answer your troll posts any more.
Are we still friends? Can we at least agree to disagree? I feel like we were starting to understand one another...
I know I should have realised earlier. Dumb me. Good troll though 9/10.
On November 22 2014 04:18 Lumi wrote: Distasteful as it may be, that seems like a completely made-up ruling for a tournament to act on. Since when do we disqualify people mid-tournament for something they said on twitter? It's not about whether you think what he said was distasteful or not, it's about the lack of a precedent for this in our scene, and the lack of any actual rules that were outlined regarding the tournament for this kind of scenario? The disqualification only drew wayyyyy more attention to it, and now it lingers on.
Since when do we police people mid-tournament for their twitter activity? This seems like a huge, made-up over-extension of authority. I'm guessing that if these people could have censored the tweet themselves, they would have. Settling for the next best thing, then? Whatever you can do with whatever power you have?
I definitely don't agree with this conduct from a 'professional' tournament organization. People are obsessed with getting offended. English isn't his first language, and we all know that "rape" is commonly used as a synonym for owning/pwning/crushing/shitting-on.
This hypersensitivity to anything to do with rape is getting out of hand. And that's not to take away from rape itself. It's a comment on hypersensitivity to it. Is it possible to be hypersensitive? Yes. If someone actually defecated on someone, that would be pretty obscene, right? But if Kas said "I'm gonna shit on this girl" we wouldn't be here right now, I'm guessing. Slavery is also pretty bad, but if he said he's going to "own" this girl, we definitely wouldn't be here right now.
Getting offended is not an argument, and getting offended is in no way the same thing as someone having violated a rule. I have my doubts about whether the actually big, professional tournaments would fall into such a whimsical, impromptu executive decision, in the middle of their tournament, to do with what someone tweeted. Give me a break.
your way of thinking is kinda lacking... you always need a first time or nothing will never happen, so consider this the "precedent". Since when do they police tweets? well, since now. And the rules, do you know them?
maybe it's about time to stop using rape for everything, don't you agree?
No, I don't. It's a personal choice and a great many people have died for our freedom of speech, only to have knee-jerk reactionaries using whatever power they can muster up to reprimand people who said something they don't like. What makes rape worse than murder, or slavery, and who can say? But if he said he's going to murder, or he's going to own, this wouldn't be happening. My thinking is on point and the lack of consistency in the logic deployed in this instance is blatant. This is a double-standard and exactly what we can expect from a growing culture of female self-victimization receiving special treatment. Special treatment. That's the precedent we should applaud and usher in? Give me a break.
Freedom of speech does not equate freedom to say whatever you want without consequences. There are laws that regulate hate-speech for example. or threats, there are rules for what you can and can't say in contracts (NDA etc) they all limit your speech. Just like you can't say whatever you want to on teamliquid.net without getting banned.
TL is a private organization. Hate speech laws are bullshit.
Fragbite is also a private organization.
Hate speech laws are a fact for most European countries, for this debate most notably in Sweden since the organization is from here. Not that his tweet was hate speech, it was just one example of a few limitations to Freedom of Speech, which never has been completely free, and will never be completely free.
Do you realize that this has noting to do with freedom of speech? It's a privately run company, the are free to establish any rules they want to, as long as they abide by the law.
Hate speech was just one example I used to show why freedom of speech is not a complete freedom and that you will still have to face the consequences of what you say if your speech infringes on someone else's rights.
I don't see how speech can infringe on someone's rights. Unless I threaten to physically harm you or your property, I don't see how its a problem. I can say whatever I want. You can just ignore me, or tell me to shove it and do whatever it is you want to do or say.
Hate speech is defined by it's threatening nature and intent to create hostility toward a specific party. It's not just an opinion, but an effort to advocate harassment and violence towards that group.
Also, it should be pointed out that you can't use speech to say, start a riot or yell fire in a theater. The same applies to hate speech.
EPT
or 
and people insult each other all the time and as long as it isn't getting out of hand, fortunately no one is banned because of that. Need an example?
