On June 17 2014 07:41 Dodgin wrote: If we like to believe that sc2 results are not volatile. which they clearly aren't as proven by Taeja, then It's not an unrealistic expectation to go into it saying " I'm going to win " for a player like Maru, Soulkey or Parting.
Maru is busy trying to squeeze in practice for GSL. From what I read of his interview, he was only allowed to practice for his match against Soulkey for 1 day. And I assume its the same for the others. They just practice for PL all day because that's what they are paid to do.
1 day? Jesus christ I knew that the Kespa teams prioritize proleague but I didn't realize it was to that extent.
They get money from the sponsors, and as I said in my last post, most of the sponsors are only South Korean companies. And the best ROI is in Proleague, so the focus is on that.
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
But kespa do send players out and get owned most of the time.
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
The only players I know who specifically make snipe builds for players in foreign lans are the TSL guys. I know Hyun, Symbol and Polt have done it before.
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
The only players I know who specifically make snipe builds for players in foreign lans are the TSL guys. I know Hyun, Symbol and Polt have done it before.
Do they do that just in case they meet a specific player later in the tournament, or for the first round opponents, who are the only ones they know well in advance?
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
I don't think that Effort and TRUE are shitty at all. But I think that the difference between Maru/Zest and Effort/True is a lot bigger than the difference between Maru/Zest and Taeja.
I think Taeja is a fantastic player. He might be a top 3 Terran. The regional lockdowns make it pretty hard to judge. I think Maru is definitely better, and I think that Jin Air would have absolutely nothing to gain from sending Maru to this event, because there is a very high chance Taeja knocks him out regardless.
I would actually rather say that international tournaments are more pure skill than korean... with 8 opponents in 3 days... not much time to prepare for your opponent, while in korean tournaments you usually play every 2 weeks or so, and that allows some "lesser" players to prepare several builds and strats and beat better skilled players
here its ability to adapt on the spot and pure skill, as you have no idea if you will play cheeser or some macro monster... hell, you dont even know if you will play zerg, protoss or terran... at least after 1st match each day, and even then you end up playing late at night and have to continue next day... so you will either sleep or prepare for 1 guy for couple of hours lol
i would say tournaments like blizzcon finals are the best way to gauge skill, since top kespa are also there, and usually "outsiders" are doing very well against them there, where you play 2 rounds per day
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
The only players I know who specifically make snipe builds for players in foreign lans are the TSL guys. I know Hyun, Symbol and Polt have done it before.
Do they do that just in case they meet a specific player later in the tournament, or for the first round opponents, who are the only ones they know well in advance?
Symbol does it for everyone apparently. Like he was talking with Grubby and basically told him what Grubby's tendencies were in PvZ gamse and Grubby was like wtf this guy is crazy on stream.
Polt will look at a tournament and just focus on 1-2 matchups with a focus on 1 guy he might think he is super difficult.
Hyun sniped some fool he thought he was going to meet in the finals.
On June 17 2014 07:44 malady wrote: what a boring dream hack >_<
It was kind of interesting until everyone realized that no one could beat Taeja.
I love SC2, but after JD lost, I lost interest.
I used to watch plenty of SC2, then it became only about Stephano and JD, and with Stephanos style nowadays, only JD. Don't even bother watching JDs streams.
In a Protoss dominated era, I simply can't. That race looks less "flashy" than the other two and more "gimmicky". Only Protoss I can stand to watch is Rain, because the guy is a genius. Sometimes herO too.
On June 17 2014 07:54 genai wrote: I would actually rather say that international tournaments are more pure skill than korean... with 8 opponents in 3 days... not much time to prepare for your opponent, while in korean tournaments you usually play every 2 weeks or so, and that allows some "lesser" players to prepare several builds and strats and beat better skilled players
here its ability to adapt on the spot and pure skill, as you have no idea if you will play cheeser or some macro monster... hell, you dont even know if you will play zerg, protoss or terran... at least after 1st match each day, and even then you end up playing late at night and have to continue next day... so you will either sleep or prepare for 1 guy for couple of hours lol
i would say tournaments like blizzcon finals are the best way to gauge skill, since top kespa are also there, and usually non-kespa are doing very well against them there, where you play 2 rounds per day
That's an interesting point. I agree in theory that this type of tournament could be a better indicator of raw mechanical skill... if the lower rungs weren't filled out by walk-over foreigners.
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
I don't think that Effort and TRUE are shitty at all. But I think that the difference between Maru/Zest and Effort/True is a lot bigger than the difference between Maru/Zest and Taeja.
I think Taeja is a fantastic player. He might be a top 3 Terran. The regional lockdowns make it pretty hard to judge. I think Maru is definitely better, and I think that Jin Air would have absolutely nothing to gain from sending Maru to this event, because there is a very high chance Taeja knocks him out regardless.
Maru isn't definitely better. When he played overseas he still get owned by non-Kespa players. I'm also assuming Zest is code B next year.
"I love SC2, but only when player X is playing" is a very weird thing to say. I can fully understand being disappointed when your favorite loses, but if no other Starcraft is interesting to you I'm not sure what is going on there
On June 17 2014 07:54 genai wrote: I would actually rather say that international tournaments are more pure skill than korean... with 8 opponents in 3 days... not much time to prepare for your opponent, while in korean tournaments you usually play every 2 weeks or so, and that allows some "lesser" players to prepare several builds and strats and beat better skilled players
here its ability to adapt on the spot and pure skill, as you have no idea if you will play cheeser or some macro monster... hell, you dont even know if you will play zerg, protoss or terran... at least after 1st match each day, and even then you end up playing late at night and have to continue next day... so you will either sleep or prepare for 1 guy for couple of hours lol
i would say tournaments like blizzcon finals are the best way to gauge skill, since top kespa are also there, and usually non-kespa are doing very well against them there, where you play 2 rounds per day
That's an interesting point. I agree in theory that this type of tournament could be a better indicator of raw mechanical skill... if the lower rungs weren't filled out by walk-over foreigners.
agree, need more tournaments like wcs finals, with both top korean and top "outsiders" playing in dense schedule, homestory was fine i guess, with stork (who is playing good now) and much less walkovers there
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
The only players I know who specifically make snipe builds for players in foreign lans are the TSL guys. I know Hyun, Symbol and Polt have done it before.
Do they do that just in case they meet a specific player later in the tournament, or for the first round opponents, who are the only ones they know well in advance?
Symbol does it for everyone apparently. Like he was talking with Grubby and basically told him what Grubby's tendencies were in PvZ gamse and Grubby was like wtf this guy is crazy on stream.
Polt will look at a tournament and just focus on 1-2 matchups with a focus on 1 guy he might think he is super difficult.
Hyun sniped some fool he thought he was going to meet in the finals.
That's actually pretty interesting. I always assumed that basically every player pretty much relied on their mechanics and some general builds and strats once day2/3 rolled around
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
I don't think that Effort and TRUE are shitty at all. But I think that the difference between Maru/Zest and Effort/True is a lot bigger than the difference between Maru/Zest and Taeja.
I think Taeja is a fantastic player. He might be a top 3 Terran. The regional lockdowns make it pretty hard to judge. I think Maru is definitely better, and I think that Jin Air would have absolutely nothing to gain from sending Maru to this event, because there is a very high chance Taeja knocks him out regardless.
Maru isn't definitely better. When he played overseas he still get owned by non-Kespa players. I'm also assuming Zest is code B next year.
And if Taeja were in WCS Korea right now, I'm not convinced he would make it into Code S at all. That doesn't mean I don't think he's one of the best. There is such a thing as "mitigating circumstances."
As for Zest, he played some fantastic mechanical games against PartinG this year, so I'm a lot more impressed with him right now than I ever, ever was with Dear. I wouldn't be shocked to see him continue to do well even once Protoss dominance subsides.
On June 17 2014 07:54 genai wrote: I would actually rather say that international tournaments are more pure skill than korean... with 8 opponents in 3 days... not much time to prepare for your opponent, while in korean tournaments you usually play every 2 weeks or so, and that allows some "lesser" players to prepare several builds and strats and beat better skilled players
here its ability to adapt on the spot and pure skill, as you have no idea if you will play cheeser or some macro monster... hell, you dont even know if you will play zerg, protoss or terran... at least after 1st match each day, and even then you end up playing late at night and have to continue next day... so you will either sleep or prepare for 1 guy for couple of hours lol
i would say tournaments like blizzcon finals are the best way to gauge skill, since top kespa are also there, and usually "outsiders" are doing very well against them there, where you play 2 rounds per day
Well you can see how volatile GSL is compared to international tournaments. Preparations causes more chances for upsets, if your preparation is wrong, you're in a bad spot, while in international tournaments, general game skill and knowledge reigns supreme, for the most part. I think there is some truth to what you're saying. The main issue for many international tournaments is that some are a bit thin in amount of skilled players (Although there are some like DHW that are just insanely stacked).
Also it's not as black and white as I'm saying, there's preparation and "general skill" in both types of tournaments, just in a different amount. It's an interesting thing to consider.
On June 17 2014 07:29 stuchiu wrote: With kespa being the only Korean teams left, there is no incentive for them to fly players out. Which is why you only see Koreans that win qualifiers go out and some of the Ex-ESF teams cause they still feel obligated to do it.
the incentive is winning money, but if they don't like to win money that's fine I guess.
10K for winning. 2K for airfare per player. Tournament style their players aren't used to.
Do the math.
If these players are that good that they would beat Taeja then they should be going into it expecting to win and easily making back the travel costs. A top 4 placement also qualifies them for DHW where the prize pool is quite large.
You're talking about some mythical theoretical SC2 where the better player always comes out on top. That SC2 doesn't actually exist. The one that exists allows shitty players to beat good players all the time, through better preparation, build order wins, cheeses, and dare I say it sometimes even imbalance. If Zest isn't guaranteed to beat TRUE and Maru isn't guaranteed to beat Effort, nobody in the universe is ever "guaranteed" to beat Taeja. Especially not on his home turf.
That aside, if the Kespa teams do start sending their players there, foreign tournaments will just turn into another Code S, except one where they have to pay a $2k tax per head for participating. The first teams to do it MIGHT (see earlier paragraph) make some money, but that won't last long. I'd love to see this happen, I don't like foreign players at all, but Korean teams have nothing at all to gain in the longterm.
You have a strange definition of shitty players, and the only advantage Taeja has over Kespa players in an event like this is being used to flying. He is still just as jet lagged as the rest of them. Also preparation and specific build orders for specific players also come into play far less in tournaments like this than in an event like GSL
The only players I know who specifically make snipe builds for players in foreign lans are the TSL guys. I know Hyun, Symbol and Polt have done it before.
Do they do that just in case they meet a specific player later in the tournament, or for the first round opponents, who are the only ones they know well in advance?
Symbol does it for everyone apparently. Like he was talking with Grubby and basically told him what Grubby's tendencies were in PvZ gamse and Grubby was like wtf this guy is crazy on stream.
The first rule of Symbol being great is you do not talk about Symbol being great.
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