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On April 13 2014 04:27 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 04:23 wrier wrote:On April 13 2014 04:19 TheDwf wrote:
I can't believe people are seriously arguing Terran has the advantage in lategame TvP. Especially because we have very minimal late game pro level TvP televised matches to go off of since the recent patch. Except the information is coming from pro players that are playing these lategame TvP's multiple times per day in their practice sessions. It's no wonder they figure shit out way before we ever realize it, they play this game for hours and hours every day.
How are we debating about the question if Korean Pros make balanced balance statements? MVP called terran "the weakest race" when he won GSLs on the back of blue flame hellions. It's not that the Pros don't have better insight than everyone else, the absolutley do. But their insight is heavily affected by their motivations and goals (which is to win money with your own race) and also by things like loosing games in practice and blaming it on balance. I don't think any Pro would intentionally make wrong statements about balance, but I don't think they are the hallmark for good balance, unless you get a lot of them to share their opinions and form a consensus based on their opinions.
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On April 13 2014 04:30 stuchiu wrote:
Seriously though, you guys should watch Ruin vs Reality. Really made me nostalgic for some old IM_Seed/IM_First PvT play.
i saw it. it was good, nothing spectacular though, his multitask failed him quite often in the games. against a better terran he doesn't stand a chance atm imo
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:31 Morbidius wrote:
I've seen terrans winning more in the late game recently without mines...
The fear of the mine makes Protoss not play the superior zealot/ht/archon/cllosus style I think.
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On April 13 2014 04:30 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 04:26 Caihead wrote:On April 13 2014 04:20 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On April 13 2014 04:19 sage_francis wrote:On April 13 2014 04:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 13 2014 04:10 Qwerty85 wrote:On April 13 2014 04:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 13 2014 03:58 sage_francis wrote:
last 8 tvp's i watched (alicia vs bomber + this), protoss never take a third ^^ Why would they, they'll lose. You realise Rain wasn't just whining when he said Terran is OP in the matchup? He was referring to late game. Alicia and CranK told me the exact same thing, playing a macro game against a top Terran is suicide. Of course Protoss are trying to kill Terran before that point. The old "Broodlord/Infestor" analogy that Korean Protoss are making right now is surprisingly accurate. Back in the IPL5 days, Terran were trying to kill Zerg before BL/Infestor. Now Protoss are trying to kill Terran before 3/3 Biomine. You cant be serious TB. Yeah what would I know, I'm only posting the opinions of top Korean protoss players. I can't possibly know what's going on. LR threads smarter than progamers. Im not sure if alicia and crank are top korean protoss players tbh, but whatever, their opinion is kind of wothless without the opinion of their terrans counterparts. Alicia hasn't dropped a series in WCS AM this season, and has beaten Oz, Revival and Bomber. I think he knows a thing or two about this game. =) Top players make biased arguments all the time in terms of race, match-ups, maps, other progamers, etc, I don't think that proves or disproves anything. Certainly, not contesting that in any way, but it's ridiculous to act like somehow Alicia's opinion isn't relevant or that he isn't a good player.
Yeah I dont get the hate towards Alicia/all the Axiom players. All of them are really good, from Alicia/Crank in AM to Impact in KR. Plus, I see Alicia winning his match today with some good games.
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On April 13 2014 04:31 Morbidius wrote:
I've seen terrans winning more in the late game recently without mines...
So normal, PvT then? Bio with Medevacs and vikings or ghosts has pretty much been PvT for the longest time.
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On April 13 2014 04:28 SpawnMoarOverlords wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 04:27 robson1 wrote:On April 13 2014 04:27 Heavenlee wrote:On April 13 2014 04:26 maartendq wrote:On April 13 2014 04:23 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 13 2014 04:23 wrier wrote:On April 13 2014 04:19 TheDwf wrote:
I can't believe people are seriously arguing Terran has the advantage in lategame TvP. Especially because we have very minimal late game pro level TvP televised matches to go off of since the recent patch. And why do you think that is? Because the downright ridiculous amount of stuff Protoss can get away with currently? To give another perspective: why would you tech to late game why you know that all-ins will be 80% in your favour even if they are scouted well in advance (and even if they fail you're still in a pretty decent position)? Yeah, that's why the winrate in PvT is 80%+ right? Makes sense. Oh wait, it's even if not terran favored last month. Based on what. Your Ladder with Protoss? This :
From 55% winrate to 49% in PvT and protoss have yet to really adapt to the nerf. Maybe it's a trend and will accentuate but crying to OP right now is rather childish.
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On April 13 2014 04:30 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 04:26 Caihead wrote:On April 13 2014 04:20 MasterOfPuppets wrote:On April 13 2014 04:19 sage_francis wrote:On April 13 2014 04:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 13 2014 04:10 Qwerty85 wrote:On April 13 2014 04:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 13 2014 03:58 sage_francis wrote:
last 8 tvp's i watched (alicia vs bomber + this), protoss never take a third ^^ Why would they, they'll lose. You realise Rain wasn't just whining when he said Terran is OP in the matchup? He was referring to late game. Alicia and CranK told me the exact same thing, playing a macro game against a top Terran is suicide. Of course Protoss are trying to kill Terran before that point. The old "Broodlord/Infestor" analogy that Korean Protoss are making right now is surprisingly accurate. Back in the IPL5 days, Terran were trying to kill Zerg before BL/Infestor. Now Protoss are trying to kill Terran before 3/3 Biomine. You cant be serious TB. Yeah what would I know, I'm only posting the opinions of top Korean protoss players. I can't possibly know what's going on. LR threads smarter than progamers. Im not sure if alicia and crank are top korean protoss players tbh, but whatever, their opinion is kind of wothless without the opinion of their terrans counterparts. Alicia hasn't dropped a series in WCS AM this season, and has beaten Oz, Revival and Bomber. I think he knows a thing or two about this game. =) Top players make biased arguments all the time in terms of race, match-ups, maps, other progamers, etc, I don't think that proves or disproves anything. Certainly, not contesting that in any way, but it's ridiculous to act like somehow Alicia's opinion isn't relevant or that he isn't a good player.
It's also ridiculous to present only the opinions of players who play one race when they have a vested personal interest to win because the game's balance can change via balance patches from the opinions of progamers.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:32 Undead1993 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 04:30 stuchiu wrote:
Seriously though, you guys should watch Ruin vs Reality. Really made me nostalgic for some old IM_Seed/IM_First PvT play. i saw it. it was good, nothing spectacular though, his multitask failed him quite often in the games. against a better terran he doesn't stand a chance atm imo
The structure of that is interesting though. I think once Ruin gets better/experienced or someone even better than him refines it, it could become very stable.
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your Country52798 Posts
On April 13 2014 04:29 The_Templar wrote:WCS EU Premier RO4
 MMA vs  San
0-0
Map: Heavy Rain San spawns in the bottom MMA spawns in the top
2:00
Fast gas after barracks for MMA.
San getting a slightly later assimilator after his gateway.
3:00
Cybernetics core on the way for San.
MMA getting a reactor on his barracks.
Two reapers for MMA.
San gets his natural nexus down.
Mothership core being chronoboosted out.
MMA expanding.
4:00
Two more reapers for MMA. Mass reaper TvP?
Stalker on the way for San.
One reaper walks into the main base of San.
Twilight council is seen by the reaper.
MMA switches to marines.
5:00
Two more barracks finishing for MMA.
4 reapers walk into the main and kill a stalker and a probe or two.
Reapers die to overcharge + good building placement.
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5 workers are not worth it
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I have no idea who I want to win out of these 3 left
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On April 13 2014 04:28 stuchiu wrote:
Lets all relax. There are some distinct differences from the current PvT meta compared to Bl/infestor. Most notably protoss is coming off its largest winning streak ever. If they are shunted into a meta where they all feel like they cant play the late game, the gap between winning almost everything to losing most late games will always make it feel worse than it is.
Even during the worst eras of imbalance, there has always been af ew players that could fight it and eventually change the meta into their own favor for at least a bit.
Parting - Soul Train
Mvp - MechVZ, 3 base SCV pull, MechvT
DRG/Soulkey/Curious vs pre-patch mines.
First vs Hellbat Drops
Maru/Polt vs Protoss in the most recent 6 months.
Even now all of the MVP tosses all say Terran is still fairly beatable. sOs is still insane. Protoss have ben using crazy all-ins. And Ruin is re-inventing the immortal archon HT observor chargelot blink stalker style that every other Protoss abandoned once they realized the MSC could defend everything.
Before the last patch, meta was that terran was strong in mid-game, but weak at end vs. storm, and had a hell of a time getting to midgame because of blink. Was that wrong?
The patch changes have allowed T go get to the midgame more strongly (MSC and widow). Midgame is much stronger, with stronger widows. The next map pool will make T MUCH stronger in the opening because of less blink play.
But how does that translate into a T advantage in lategame? The ghost energy buff was easily the most ridiculed buff in a long while - irrelevant, cheap, trivial... So where is the big buff to terran late game?
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On April 13 2014 04:33 robson1 wrote:
5 workers are not worth it
and a stalker
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Getting that stalker was nice, but that should be better for san in terms of resources lost.
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On April 13 2014 04:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 04:14 Frex wrote:On April 13 2014 04:12 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 13 2014 04:10 Qwerty85 wrote:On April 13 2014 04:09 TotalBiscuit wrote:On April 13 2014 03:58 sage_francis wrote:
last 8 tvp's i watched (alicia vs bomber + this), protoss never take a third ^^ Why would they, they'll lose. You realise Rain wasn't just whining when he said Terran is OP in the matchup? He was referring to late game. Alicia and CranK told me the exact same thing, playing a macro game against a top Terran is suicide. Of course Protoss are trying to kill Terran before that point. The old "Broodlord/Infestor" analogy that Korean Protoss are making right now is surprisingly accurate. Back in the IPL5 days, Terran were trying to kill Zerg before BL/Infestor. Now Protoss are trying to kill Terran before 3/3 Biomine. You cant be serious TB. Yeah what would I know, I'm only posting the opinions of top Korean protoss players. I can't possibly know what's going on. Terran is strong in later stages right now. But do you feel this match-up is in good position then? I mean if all these complaints are true from these pro protoss players then I guess series like these will get much more popular. No the matchup is in an awful position. Any matchup in which one race is predominantly playing 1-2 base because the players are actually afraid of going for a longer game is one that has some problems. Unfortunately we don't get to see enough of those games to really get that impression. Seriously, outside of games on Alterzim, you are seeing so few long PvTs. We might even end up seeing another Terran buff because of that and then I have a feeling things will swing back in the other direction hard once Terran can regularly get to the later game without dying. Yes yes very cute. Call me when your bronzelogic is somehow more valid than the opinions of people like Rain, CranK and Alicia.
I'd take his bronzelogic opinion over Rain's opinion any day. I can't take someone who says that Terran was overpowered BEFORE the widowmine patch seriously.
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On April 13 2014 04:32 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2014 04:31 Morbidius wrote:
I've seen terrans winning more in the late game recently without mines... The fear of the mine makes Protoss not play the superior zealot/ht/archon/cllosus style I think.
Its what i thought happened.
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On April 13 2014 04:34 Sent. wrote:and a stalker
and MSC energy
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EPT
