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On March 16 2014 21:50 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 21:38 ANLProbe wrote:
I hope herO wins, he actually used legit macro games to beat Polt. 4 years and people are still this off. There is nothing in a macro game that makes it more legit, more honorable or w/e than any other type of game. Even though people like to deny it, this game is still fairly decently balanced given how hard it is to achieve that in a RTS. There will always be a strongest race in the current meta and it just happens to be protoss, both players deserve to be in this final and the better play will win today. People seriously need to tune down the QQing and man up. I'd just wish the guy going second wouldn't have wasted an entire weekend of time... For once I actually hope a prize split was agreed upon, I hate to see these young men who sacrifice their 20s for a shot at being the best in the world wasting a full week of practice.
I'm not blaming the players, I blame the design team. I really like sOs but his games vs Taeja were just disgusting. He tried to use an all in every game (3 time being Blink) but when he played a macro game he got crushed. I think sOs knows that Taeja is a mechanically better macro player otherwise he would have tried to play a macro game at least once. Whereas as he knows that he's better than Jjakji, so he did play a macro game.
The awful design simply allows inferior players to beat superior players with imbalanced all ins like Blink.
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Wow cs go has like 120k viewers now. SC is way way behind.
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sOs eliminated Polt and Bomber from the WCS season finals. He played some macro games while doing it. So he is certainly capable of winning long games. He just doesn't always choose to do so. And he beat Jajjki using Phoneix/Colossus into Carriers, which is very weird but is not some sort of early game cheese. sOs is a virtuoso. He has the creativity of Liquid HerO and the killer instinct of MC all wrapped up in one person. He may be the best player in the world.
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@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting?
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i wont be watching this,because the more people leave and not watch sc2 the less money goes into the scene, the less money that goes in, the less players will play, that will cause more people to not watch and snowball, if blizzard doesnt act asap then maybe its time for the community to force them to act. Boycott away, make blizzard see and listen, if no one is watching this, they might just get the hint
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On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting?
Haha the spectrum is even broader than that -- from 5 minute proxy rush games to 3 hour swarm host games. :p
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
personally Hawka12 i find that attitude absolutely abhorrent
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On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting?
going blink all in is not strategy it is called abuse something that is overpowered.
User was warned for this post
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On March 16 2014 22:09 Hawka12 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? going blink all in is not strategy it is called abuse something that is overpowered.
Polt beat the blink openings from herO sometimes. The build is holdable. He just couldn't beat 6 Colossus without range. :p
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I will be watching this because I like the players and I enjoy sOs's playstyle. If I get more people to watch maybe we can get an influx of money and Blizzard will lend more aid to SC2 seeing as it's becoming potentially more profitable and thus worth the effort to maintain and fix.
SC2 isn't a cash cow like WoW or Hearthstone, so it's going to be passed over as long as it can when it's the least amount of profit per fix.
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On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting?
Well considering out of all the games at IEM that were blink "all ins" only two of them were Terran wins, I think it's safe to say that the better player did not always win against blink. If Blink was truly fair I don't think we would see it being used 3 games in a row in a series, even when it was scouted.
Edit: I'd rather just donate money to IEM at this point. I don't care for either of the players and unfortunately PvP is my second least favorite matchup. Even if it was a ZvZ I'd much rather watch  Is there a way to donate money to IEM, or is the only way to do that through subscribing?
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On March 16 2014 22:11 Salient wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:09 Hawka12 wrote:On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? going blink all in is not strategy it is called abuse something that is overpowered. Polt beat the blink openings from herO sometimes. The build is holdable. He just couldn't beat 6 Colossus without range. :p
well 111 infestor broodlord all considered overpowered, but they are still beatable.
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On March 16 2014 22:12 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? Well considering out of all the games at IEM that were blink "all ins" only two of them were Terran wins, I think it's safe to say that the better player did not always win against blink. If Blink was truly fair I don't think we would see it being used 3 games in a row in a series, even when it was scouted.
You are seriously using one weekend where pretty much all players have got to be super nervous playing in front of a stadium + knowing that all but one of them will go home empty handed as an indicator of balance? Seriously?
Also lol @Hawka12 asking us to kill our own scene. What you suggest won't make blizzard listen to your complains it'll make the game shrink and shrink and shrink.
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On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting?
I'm not saying that you should never be allowed to all in, but every game that sOs won was an all in which require far less skill to pull off than it is to hold off. And doing the same all in multiple times is not strategy. It's just abusing a broken all in.
And actually, look at these stats for Blink in this IEM
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/20iqh2/some_iem_stats_and_details_on_pvt_blink_allins/
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On March 16 2014 22:13 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:12 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? Well considering out of all the games at IEM that were blink "all ins" only two of them were Terran wins, I think it's safe to say that the better player did not always win against blink. If Blink was truly fair I don't think we would see it being used 3 games in a row in a series, even when it was scouted. You are seriously using one weekend where pretty much all players have got to be super nervous playing in front of a stadium + knowing that all but one of them will go home empty handed as an indicator of balance? Seriously?
No, I'm using the fact that we have seen it be prevalent since November of last year and the fact that it STILL is being used as the fact that it is imbalanced. We saw Duckdeok crush INnoVation with it. The only difference is that now the map pool is more favored towards it.
There is honestly no way to defend blink all ins on Heavy Rain, Yeonsu, Daedalus, etc. I'm pretty sure that's just given as imbalanced at this point.
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On March 16 2014 22:14 ANLProbe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? I'm not saying that you should never be allowed to all in, but every game that sOs won was an all in which require far less skill to pull off than it is to hold off. And doing the same all in multiple times is not strategy. It's just abusing a broken all in. And actually, look at these stats for Blink in this IEM http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/20iqh2/some_iem_stats_and_details_on_pvt_blink_allins/
From your own link:
"Blink all-ins were successful 67% of the time"
Thats not imba to me, thats just a strong strat that hasn't been fully figured out. All race have had "imba strats" and allins before and all of them either got figured out or balance patched by Blizzard. I really don't see why protoss being the one with said strat is such a big deal now. Also using 1 tournament for an indicator of balance is just awful as I said before.
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On March 16 2014 22:06 Salient wrote:
sOs eliminated Polt and Bomber from the WCS season finals. He played some macro games while doing it. So he is certainly capable of winning long games. He just doesn't always choose to do so. And he beat Jajjki using Phoneix/Colossus into Carriers, which is very weird but is not some sort of early game cheese. sOs is a virtuoso. He has the creativity of Liquid HerO and the killer instinct of MC all wrapped up in one person. He may be the best player in the world.
Yes but every time that he has played a macro game vs Taeja he has lost, so he obviously went the route giving him the best advantage of winning, which was through abusing the plethora of Protoss all ins, notably Blink. I don't blame sOs though, I blame the balance team.
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On March 16 2014 22:16 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:14 ANLProbe wrote:On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? I'm not saying that you should never be allowed to all in, but every game that sOs won was an all in which require far less skill to pull off than it is to hold off. And doing the same all in multiple times is not strategy. It's just abusing a broken all in. And actually, look at these stats for Blink in this IEM http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/20iqh2/some_iem_stats_and_details_on_pvt_blink_allins/ From your own link: "Blink all-ins were successful 67% of the time" Thats not imba to me, thats just a strong strat that hasn't been fully figured out. All race have had "imba strats" and allins before and all of them either got figured out or balance patched by Blizzard. I really don't see why protoss being the one with said strat is such a big deal now. Also using 1 tournament for an indicator of balance is just awful as I said before.
1 tournament.
We've seen this for close to 5 months now.
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On March 16 2014 22:18 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:16 Lorch wrote:On March 16 2014 22:14 ANLProbe wrote:On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? I'm not saying that you should never be allowed to all in, but every game that sOs won was an all in which require far less skill to pull off than it is to hold off. And doing the same all in multiple times is not strategy. It's just abusing a broken all in. And actually, look at these stats for Blink in this IEM http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/20iqh2/some_iem_stats_and_details_on_pvt_blink_allins/ From your own link: "Blink all-ins were successful 67% of the time" Thats not imba to me, thats just a strong strat that hasn't been fully figured out. All race have had "imba strats" and allins before and all of them either got figured out or balance patched by Blizzard. I really don't see why protoss being the one with said strat is such a big deal now. Also using 1 tournament for an indicator of balance is just awful as I said before. 1 tournament. We've seen this for close to 5 months now.
Yeah I really have no idea what he's talking about with us using one tournament as balance, lol. We've been saying this since before Blizzcon. Did Lorch just have memory loss and forget about INNoVation getting knocked out by Duckdeok using blink and oracle all ins? lol
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On March 16 2014 22:16 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2014 22:14 ANLProbe wrote:On March 16 2014 22:07 Lorch wrote:
@ANLProbe: Mechanics are not the only skill required in this game. You are not the superior player if you have a higher chance of winning macro games. It's not awful design when you make sure that in a REAL TIME STRATEGY game a player can over come mechanical inferiority by out thinking his opponent. If blink allins had like a 80% winrate on the highest level of play I might say you kinda have a point, but as it is I would say Taeja would have won if he truly was the superior player. My favorite part about starcraft is that not every game is a macro game. Not every game takes 30+ minutes, you literally have the full spectrum from ending under 10 minutes to 1+ hour games and I would say a true champion should be able to win in all possible games not just the "more difficulty/superior/more honorable" macro game. I seriously don't get this hole makro game circle jerk, maybe too much artosis casting? I'm not saying that you should never be allowed to all in, but every game that sOs won was an all in which require far less skill to pull off than it is to hold off. And doing the same all in multiple times is not strategy. It's just abusing a broken all in. And actually, look at these stats for Blink in this IEM http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/20iqh2/some_iem_stats_and_details_on_pvt_blink_allins/ From your own link: "Blink all-ins were successful 67% of the time" Thats not imba to me, thats just a strong strat that hasn't been fully figured out. All race have had "imba strats" and allins before and all of them either got figured out or balance patched by Blizzard. I really don't see why protoss being the one with said strat is such a big deal now. Also using 1 tournament for an indicator of balance is just awful as I said before.
Wrong. It was 86% before the 9 minute mark and one of the games (the Taeja vs sOs on yeonsu game) he didn't even commit to the all in. So after 9 mins it was only held once by Polt.
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EPT
