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SoCal, USA3955 Posts
Does anyone have any recommendation which were the best games out of the series (no recommended games polls on OP.) I do remember watching 3 games in, but I passed out at some point (was sick.)
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On December 23 2013 04:39 slowbacontron wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 04:04 Zackeva wrote:
Missed the showmatch; any recommended games? Show nested quote +On December 22 2013 06:04 opterown wrote:for anyone who wants game recommendations:+ Show Spoiler +Poll: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 1?★★★ - Good game (32) 57% ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (8) 14% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (8) 14% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (7) 13% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1) 2% 56 total votes Your vote: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 1? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 2?★★★ - Good game (18) 56% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (6) 19% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 13% ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2) 6% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (2) 6% 32 total votes Your vote: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 2? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 3?★★★ - Good game (13) 37% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (11) 31% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (5) 14% ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (3) 9% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (3) 9% 35 total votes Your vote: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 3? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 4?★★★★ - Highly recommended game (44) 64% ★★★ - Good game (8) 12% ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (7) 10% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (6) 9% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (4) 6% 69 total votes Your vote: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 4? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 5?★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (22) 40% ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (15) 27% ★★★ - Good game (8) 15% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (5) 9% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (5) 9% 55 total votes Your vote: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 5? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 6?★ - Do not see this game no matter what (22) 35% ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (19) 31% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (14) 23% ★★★ - Good game (4) 6% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (3) 5% 62 total votes Your vote: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 6? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 7?★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (24) 47% ★ - Do not see this game no matter what (9) 18% ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (7) 14% ★★★ - Good game (7) 14% ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (4) 8% 51 total votes Your vote: Recommend Scarlett vs. NaNiwa Game 7? (Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year
(Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★ - Good game
(Vote): ★★ - Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
In conclusion: the games were okay. Polls favor games 4 and 7 the most.
Opty's got em covered!
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On December 23 2013 20:29 Squat wrote:
The diversity is part of the problem, it's just way too much stuff that is viable, at least from protoss. There is no safe, standard way to play, it's just russian roulette. There is no way to prepare for everything, or even half of it.
It's a horrid mess of gimmicks, guess the all-in, it more or less pushes zerg into mass muta or swarm host turtle since everything else gets shat on. It rewards low-skill, all-in tactics far too much and does not reward mechanical skill, multitasking and micro anywhere near enough. It's just an ugly, gross match up that has been shit since day 1. Most of it has to do with protoss, but BL/infestor was just as bad in some ways. I usually just avoid it altogether, but this showmatch was intriguing because of the storyline.
Praise the complexity. The headaches we receive now while it's being developed make for beautiful depth, when people begin to master it.
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Are there going to be VODs of the undercard? I really want to watch iNcontrol VS destiny.
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On December 24 2013 04:13 learning88 wrote:
Are there going to be VODs of the undercard? I really want to watch iNcontrol VS destiny.
They've been up for a couple of days on http://youtube.com/totalbiscuit
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Bisutopia19366 Posts
On December 24 2013 04:14 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 04:13 learning88 wrote:
Are there going to be VODs of the undercard? I really want to watch iNcontrol VS destiny. They've been up for a couple of days on http://youtube.com/totalbiscuit
You'd think people would have realized by now you have to commit yourself to the TotalBiscuit if you want to enjoy SC2. Follow the channel peeps!
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Could someone give me the Score of both games please? I can't see them in the op or perhaps I'm just blind.
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On December 24 2013 04:52 KaiserKieran wrote:
Could someone give me the Score of both games please? I can't see them in the op or perhaps I'm just blind.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
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anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy'
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On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy'
But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here.
ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats.
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On December 24 2013 05:14 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy' But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here. ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats.
The matchup is not as bad as you think. I think you're projecting your own difficulties with Protoss onto all ZvP. Hydras destroy any Protoss composition that doesn't have splash damage. Swarm Hosts basically force Protoss to make Colossus. Muta force out Phoenixes. A good Zerg will be reactive in the early game and then dictate the Protoss's tech choices later on. Scouting for the Protoss's opener is part of it, but as the game gets to mid-late game, Protoss has just as difficult a task figuring out what unit the Zerg is going to remax on and adapting.
I think the better player wins most of the time.
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On December 24 2013 05:53 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:14 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy' But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here. ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats. The matchup is not as bad as you think. I think you're projecting your own difficulties with Protoss onto all ZvP. Hydras destroy any Protoss composition that doesn't have splash damage. Swarm Hosts basically force Protoss to make Corruptors. Muta force out Phoenixes. A good Zerg will be reactive in the early game and then dictate the Protoss's tech choices later on. Scouting for the Protoss's opener is part of it, but as the game gets to mid-late game, Protoss has just as difficult a task figuring out what unit the Zerg is going to remax on and adapting. I think the better player wins most of the time.
Wut?
I actually win ZvP more often than not now since I go for 1 base nydus roach pretty much every game. It pretty much kills forge FE/DT play stone dead if unscouted, and most people only scout once in high plat/low diamond. Apparently the way to beat weird shit is to throw even weirder shit back.
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On December 24 2013 05:59 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:53 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:14 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy' But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here. ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats. The matchup is not as bad as you think. I think you're projecting your own difficulties with Protoss onto all ZvP. Hydras destroy any Protoss composition that doesn't have splash damage. Swarm Hosts basically force Protoss to make Corruptors. Muta force out Phoenixes. A good Zerg will be reactive in the early game and then dictate the Protoss's tech choices later on. Scouting for the Protoss's opener is part of it, but as the game gets to mid-late game, Protoss has just as difficult a task figuring out what unit the Zerg is going to remax on and adapting. I think the better player wins most of the time. Wut? I actually win ZvP more often than not now since I go for 1 base nydus roach pretty much every game. It pretty much kills forge FE/DT play stone dead if unscouted, and most people only scout once in high plat/low diamond. Apparently the way to beat weird shit is to throw even weirder shit back.
LOL i meant colossus. Let me fix that.
I lost to 2 base nydus swarm host once just from assuming my opponent would play standard. If more Zergs did creative things I think it would be more interesting for sure, but as it is you frequently see every unit made in a bo5 PvZ (except carriers, maybe). Much better diversity than some of the other MU's IMO.
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On December 24 2013 06:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 05:59 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:53 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:14 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy' But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here. ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats. The matchup is not as bad as you think. I think you're projecting your own difficulties with Protoss onto all ZvP. Hydras destroy any Protoss composition that doesn't have splash damage. Swarm Hosts basically force Protoss to make Corruptors. Muta force out Phoenixes. A good Zerg will be reactive in the early game and then dictate the Protoss's tech choices later on. Scouting for the Protoss's opener is part of it, but as the game gets to mid-late game, Protoss has just as difficult a task figuring out what unit the Zerg is going to remax on and adapting. I think the better player wins most of the time. Wut? I actually win ZvP more often than not now since I go for 1 base nydus roach pretty much every game. It pretty much kills forge FE/DT play stone dead if unscouted, and most people only scout once in high plat/low diamond. Apparently the way to beat weird shit is to throw even weirder shit back. LOL i meant colossus. Let me fix that. I lost to 2 base nydus swarm host once just from assuming my opponent would play standard. If more Zergs did creative things I think it would be more interesting for sure, but as it is you frequently see every unit made in a bo5 PvZ (except carriers, maybe). Much better diversity than some of the other MU's IMO.
The creative stuff for zerg is almost always an all-in though, and easily shut down if scouted, which is probably why most pros shy away from it. My 1-2 base nydus builds work because no one knows who I am and most of my opponents have never played me before. Plus it's just ladder so I don't care if lose, these guys are playing for their livelihood.
It's just irritating because zerg has every tool required to respond early on, but finding what to respond to is just so hard.
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On December 24 2013 06:16 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 06:07 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:59 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:53 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:14 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy' But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here. ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats. The matchup is not as bad as you think. I think you're projecting your own difficulties with Protoss onto all ZvP. Hydras destroy any Protoss composition that doesn't have splash damage. Swarm Hosts basically force Protoss to make Corruptors. Muta force out Phoenixes. A good Zerg will be reactive in the early game and then dictate the Protoss's tech choices later on. Scouting for the Protoss's opener is part of it, but as the game gets to mid-late game, Protoss has just as difficult a task figuring out what unit the Zerg is going to remax on and adapting. I think the better player wins most of the time. Wut? I actually win ZvP more often than not now since I go for 1 base nydus roach pretty much every game. It pretty much kills forge FE/DT play stone dead if unscouted, and most people only scout once in high plat/low diamond. Apparently the way to beat weird shit is to throw even weirder shit back. LOL i meant colossus. Let me fix that. I lost to 2 base nydus swarm host once just from assuming my opponent would play standard. If more Zergs did creative things I think it would be more interesting for sure, but as it is you frequently see every unit made in a bo5 PvZ (except carriers, maybe). Much better diversity than some of the other MU's IMO. The creative stuff for zerg is almost always an all-in though, and easily shut down if scouted, which is probably why most pros shy away from it. My 1-2 base nydus builds work because no one knows who I am and most of my opponents have never played me before. Plus it's just ladder so I don't care if lose, these guys are playing for their livelihood. It's just irritating because zerg has every tool required to respond early on, but finding what to respond to is just so hard.
Conversely if the Protoss has his build scouted and it doesn't do any economic damage, he's waaaay behind. Sure Protoss has more options to do early damage, but what they don't have is the option to do nothing. If Zerg economy gets to a certain point unimpeded, Zerg should win in theory.
So Protoss players must do some sort of early damage or take a really greedy 3rd base in order to compete with a macroing zerg.
Just another way to look at it.
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On December 24 2013 06:32 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 06:16 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 06:07 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:59 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:53 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:14 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy' But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here. ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats. The matchup is not as bad as you think. I think you're projecting your own difficulties with Protoss onto all ZvP. Hydras destroy any Protoss composition that doesn't have splash damage. Swarm Hosts basically force Protoss to make Corruptors. Muta force out Phoenixes. A good Zerg will be reactive in the early game and then dictate the Protoss's tech choices later on. Scouting for the Protoss's opener is part of it, but as the game gets to mid-late game, Protoss has just as difficult a task figuring out what unit the Zerg is going to remax on and adapting. I think the better player wins most of the time. Wut? I actually win ZvP more often than not now since I go for 1 base nydus roach pretty much every game. It pretty much kills forge FE/DT play stone dead if unscouted, and most people only scout once in high plat/low diamond. Apparently the way to beat weird shit is to throw even weirder shit back. LOL i meant colossus. Let me fix that. I lost to 2 base nydus swarm host once just from assuming my opponent would play standard. If more Zergs did creative things I think it would be more interesting for sure, but as it is you frequently see every unit made in a bo5 PvZ (except carriers, maybe). Much better diversity than some of the other MU's IMO. The creative stuff for zerg is almost always an all-in though, and easily shut down if scouted, which is probably why most pros shy away from it. My 1-2 base nydus builds work because no one knows who I am and most of my opponents have never played me before. Plus it's just ladder so I don't care if lose, these guys are playing for their livelihood. It's just irritating because zerg has every tool required to respond early on, but finding what to respond to is just so hard. Conversely if the Protoss has his build scouted and it doesn't do any economic damage, he's waaaay behind. Sure Protoss has more options to do early damage, but what they don't have is the option to do nothing. If Zerg economy gets to a certain point unimpeded, Zerg should win in theory. So Protoss players must do some sort of early damage or take a really greedy 3rd base in order to compete with a macroing zerg. Just another way to look at it.
not really, that's the way it's supposed to be, risk/reward, the problem is that for the most part, it isn't. even for absurd cheeses like gate expand dt builds there are dangerous archon and blink stalker followups that can be viable even if the dts do 0 damage, and if they do any at all it's almost game over. and the more common, problematic openings, basically anything that comes with zealot pressure, are just so fuckin powerful that even if you know that theyre coming it costs almost as much to be safe vs them as it does to do them. this means that if protoss makes the proper decision of when to engage and when to fall back and defend a third or build up for a later allin they're at least still in the game if not ahead despite "failing" a build with kill potential.
im not sure how the idea that if zerg scouts these builds they just free win persists, it's blatantly untrue and you just need to watch a few recent games to see it. and when zerg does scout, prepare, and win because of it more often than not it's because protoss made a dumb decision to go for the attack anyway. smart protosses will frequently pull their immortal allin back, wait for 2 collosus and then attack and win, easily, because they recognized that their build forced a lair tech ground unit response that has no where to go as long as it doesn't get to fight right away.
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That's pretty much how I see every smart protoss play, build up for an attack, and if it gets scouted just fall back and build the counter to whatever tech you just forced. It's kind like the old blue flame hellions, if they work you win, if not, eh it's ok, you're still in good shape.
The zerg then either has to attack into a defended position and take a horrible trade, or stay on their huge army of bad units while protoss maxes out and moves out with a superior army comp.
If there as a way for zerg to actually trade decently once a mass of low tier units have been forced, this would not be so much of an issue. A zerg who scouts the all in gets to live, often barely. A protoss who scouts the all in gets to just win.
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On December 24 2013 06:49 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2013 06:32 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 06:16 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 06:07 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:59 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:53 DinoMight wrote:On December 24 2013 05:14 Squat wrote:On December 24 2013 05:08 IdrA wrote:
anyone who's giving scarlett too much shit about being abnormally weak zvp or vs cheese zvp outa watch all the other zvp's being played right now. the entirety of iem singapore was zergs like hydra effort drg looking dumb vs really simple pvz 2 base play. at some point it becomes a more general problem than 'x plays really greedy' But that would imply there is a problem with the match up, which could be interpreted as some kind of dissatisfaction with the current state of the game, which makes any subsequent argument automatically invalid. At least that seems to be the logic around here. ZvP all around is just really fucking hard and really fucking stupid right now. In a longer series like this, with plenty of time to prepare specific builds, I really think toss will always be in an advantageous position because they have so many viable builds and strats. The matchup is not as bad as you think. I think you're projecting your own difficulties with Protoss onto all ZvP. Hydras destroy any Protoss composition that doesn't have splash damage. Swarm Hosts basically force Protoss to make Corruptors. Muta force out Phoenixes. A good Zerg will be reactive in the early game and then dictate the Protoss's tech choices later on. Scouting for the Protoss's opener is part of it, but as the game gets to mid-late game, Protoss has just as difficult a task figuring out what unit the Zerg is going to remax on and adapting. I think the better player wins most of the time. Wut? I actually win ZvP more often than not now since I go for 1 base nydus roach pretty much every game. It pretty much kills forge FE/DT play stone dead if unscouted, and most people only scout once in high plat/low diamond. Apparently the way to beat weird shit is to throw even weirder shit back. LOL i meant colossus. Let me fix that. I lost to 2 base nydus swarm host once just from assuming my opponent would play standard. If more Zergs did creative things I think it would be more interesting for sure, but as it is you frequently see every unit made in a bo5 PvZ (except carriers, maybe). Much better diversity than some of the other MU's IMO. The creative stuff for zerg is almost always an all-in though, and easily shut down if scouted, which is probably why most pros shy away from it. My 1-2 base nydus builds work because no one knows who I am and most of my opponents have never played me before. Plus it's just ladder so I don't care if lose, these guys are playing for their livelihood. It's just irritating because zerg has every tool required to respond early on, but finding what to respond to is just so hard. Conversely if the Protoss has his build scouted and it doesn't do any economic damage, he's waaaay behind. Sure Protoss has more options to do early damage, but what they don't have is the option to do nothing. If Zerg economy gets to a certain point unimpeded, Zerg should win in theory. So Protoss players must do some sort of early damage or take a really greedy 3rd base in order to compete with a macroing zerg. Just another way to look at it. not really, that's the way it's supposed to be, risk/reward, the problem is that for the most part, it isn't. even for absurd cheeses like gate expand dt builds there are dangerous archon and blink stalker followups that can be viable even if the dts do 0 damage, and if they do any at all it's almost game over. and the more common, problematic openings, basically anything that comes with zealot pressure, are just so fuckin powerful that even if you know that theyre coming it costs almost as much to be safe vs them as it does to do them. this means that if protoss makes the proper decision of when to engage and when to fall back and defend a third or build up for a later allin they're at least still in the game if not ahead despite "failing" a build with kill potential. im not sure how the idea that if zerg scouts these builds they just free win persists, it's blatantly untrue and you just need to watch a few recent games to see it. and when zerg does scout, prepare, and win because of it more often than not it's because protoss made a dumb decision to go for the attack anyway. smart protosses will frequently pull their immortal allin back, wait for 2 collosus and then attack and win, easily, because they recognized that their build forced a lair tech ground unit response that has no where to go as long as it doesn't get to fight right away.
Agree with most of that, but I think the distinction is "smart" protosses. Even top tier guys like LiquidHero lose games from slightly overextending when they have forced "crappy" units like roaches and can just chill until 2 or so Colos are done. Those decisions are slightly harder to make than you would think because of the rate at which Zerg can make units. One second you think you can push an advantage and you go for it.. the next 18 Hydras come out and shit all over your parade... then you wish you had waited for Colossus.
Reminds me of how Innovation's TvZs are actually all 50% closer than they need to be because he constantly overextends onto creep unnecessarily. A worse player mechanically would lose.
As a humble ladder hero that is one of my biggest problems, but I also do see some pros struggle with it. The guys who can figure out exactly when to strike with the follow up (like Naniwa, sOs) are very successful.
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On December 24 2013 07:07 Squat wrote:
That's pretty much how I see every smart protoss play, build up for an attack, and if it gets scouted just fall back and build the counter to whatever tech you just forced. It's kind like the old blue flame hellions, if they work you win, if not, eh it's ok, you're still in good shape.
This is pretty much the style that Jaedong has had so much success with in ZvP. Force a little defense while banking huge larva and mins, then mass counter what his opponent is making. I think smart players can do it with any race.
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EPT
