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Bad crowd in Singapore by the looks of it.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 01 2013 18:09 LittleRedBoy wrote:
I have rarely seen zergs hold that type of attack with mass roach. Roaches attack much too slowly and most of their damage is reduced by Immortal's hardened shields. And if you pick up the immortals into the warp prism like hero was doing then you're just not going to kill them. Zerglings will die too quickly, so you really need hydras to be able to kill the protoss army effectively.
I can name 2. Life and Sniper. Suppy stopped it with mass mass spine crawler.
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On December 01 2013 18:08 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:04 Sabu113 wrote:
Well that and he forced a fight where the zealots were guaranteed to get connections with a gameplan that revolved around a ton of zealot buffer for 4-6 immortals (forgot how many). He has to get credit for where the fight took place. Wish we could get a quick replay of that engagement. ya, agree. The roaches were eating full zealot shots all the time lol Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. spread creep?
Creep is not really a big deal in ZvP. Past the mid game, all Protoss armies will have obs. Plus with forcefields, Protoss don't really mind engaging on creep.
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On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late.
You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for.
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Bring it home Hero !!!
Grats on SickNerdBaller Award at least 
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 01 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:08 BigFan wrote:On December 01 2013 18:04 Sabu113 wrote:
Well that and he forced a fight where the zealots were guaranteed to get connections with a gameplan that revolved around a ton of zealot buffer for 4-6 immortals (forgot how many). He has to get credit for where the fight took place. Wish we could get a quick replay of that engagement. ya, agree. The roaches were eating full zealot shots all the time lol On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. spread creep? Creep is not really a big deal in ZvP. Past the mid game, all Protoss armies will have obs. Plus with forcefields, Protoss don't really mind engaging on creep.
while I agree, having creep could mean the difference between a successful surround or a failed one since the protoss will have to react faster if they are on creep (if they didn't clean it up)
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On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for.
Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold?
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sigh scarlett should of been mvp not hero true he played well but scarlett played really well to take out some hard opponents. Being the only non Korean to make it anywhere.
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On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold?
Yeah, you're right, it wasn't.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold?
Sure it is. After immortals got +1 and then they got the msc.
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On December 01 2013 18:12 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 BigFan wrote:On December 01 2013 18:04 Sabu113 wrote:
Well that and he forced a fight where the zealots were guaranteed to get connections with a gameplan that revolved around a ton of zealot buffer for 4-6 immortals (forgot how many). He has to get credit for where the fight took place. Wish we could get a quick replay of that engagement. ya, agree. The roaches were eating full zealot shots all the time lol On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. spread creep? Creep is not really a big deal in ZvP. Past the mid game, all Protoss armies will have obs. Plus with forcefields, Protoss don't really mind engaging on creep. while I agree, having creep could mean the difference between a successful surround or a failed one since the protoss will have to react faster if they are on creep (if they didn't clean it up)
And the Protoss just recalls if it does get to that.
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On December 01 2013 18:13 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold? Yeah, you're right, it wasn't.
But Protoss sure made it sound like it. And then immortals got buffed, gg.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 01 2013 18:13 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:12 BigFan wrote:On December 01 2013 18:10 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 BigFan wrote:On December 01 2013 18:04 Sabu113 wrote:
Well that and he forced a fight where the zealots were guaranteed to get connections with a gameplan that revolved around a ton of zealot buffer for 4-6 immortals (forgot how many). He has to get credit for where the fight took place. Wish we could get a quick replay of that engagement. ya, agree. The roaches were eating full zealot shots all the time lol On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. spread creep? Creep is not really a big deal in ZvP. Past the mid game, all Protoss armies will have obs. Plus with forcefields, Protoss don't really mind engaging on creep. while I agree, having creep could mean the difference between a successful surround or a failed one since the protoss will have to react faster if they are on creep (if they didn't clean it up) And the Protoss just recalls if it does get to that.
assuming the zerg didn't try to do a ling or roach runby once they left like life does earlier on in the game so the protoss left his MSc at home incase like herO did here(for the last part, not runby)  My point? as Heartland mentioned, you're making it seem like it's impossible to hold when there are a lot of factors that come into play to get it to that stage
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On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold?
That's not even an appropriate reference to the 1-1-1. The 1-1-1 really should be compared to a much worse version of bl/infestor (in terms of free wins). Being forced to fight in a small compressed area where zealots out dps the roaches for hits while the 5 immortals aren't focused/cant be is just a twist of that race. It's like being sour about terrans bleeding extra efficiency in small unit situations, mutas or hell to use a sc1 analogy, tanks sitting in a nice position on the ridge between your main and your expo.
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On December 01 2013 18:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:13 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold? Yeah, you're right, it wasn't. But Protoss sure made it sound like it. And then immortals got buffed, gg.
Stop whining.
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Can't say I've been following this tournament very closely (blame Dreamhack), but now that Mvp is out, I'm cheering for hero in the finals. Gogo!
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 01 2013 18:15 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 17:58 Heartland wrote:
He would've been fine with Queens targeting the Prism. Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold? That's not even an appropriate reference to the 1-1-1. The 1-1-1 really should be compared to a much worse version of bl/infestor (in terms of free wins). Being forced to fight in a small compressed area where zealots out dps the roaches for hits while the 5 immortals aren't focused/cant be is just a twist of that race. It's like being sour about terrans bleeding extra efficiency in small unit situations, mutas or hell to use a sc1 analogy, tanks sitting in a nice position on the ridge between your main and your expo.
Dude Soul Train won Parting just asmuch money as Puma won from 1-1-1.
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@PaulChaloner 1m
I guess the crowd noise isnt coming over on stream, but the crowd is really good and having lots of fun. #IEM
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On December 01 2013 18:16 Heartland wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:15 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:13 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:01 vthree wrote:
[quote]
Queen's die pretty fast with immortals target firing. Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold? Yeah, you're right, it wasn't. But Protoss sure made it sound like it. And then immortals got buffed, gg. Stop whining.
Only way to get buffed...
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On December 01 2013 18:18 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 18:16 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:15 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:13 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:12 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:10 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:08 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:07 Heartland wrote:On December 01 2013 18:05 vthree wrote:On December 01 2013 18:02 Heartland wrote:
[quote]
Not really. No bonus damage. I'm saying he needed more than the ones he had. They only cost minerals and have a long-range anti-air attack. They are kind of slow. Like someone said, you have top prebuild 3-4 extra queens to counter the warp prism. And if the push doesn't come, you kind of wasted your resources. He saw the push coming though. My point here is just that Zerg does have a way of microing/fighting Prism/Immo. You can't start building Queens when you see the push come out, it is too late. You try to stall the attack and pick off units before it arrives in your base when you face the Soul push. Also, he saw what was going on in the early game. Making two extra Queens wouldn't have killed him even if it was some kind of build that wasn't the soul push, but with scouting gases, the Robo and playing on Polar Night it should be easy to figure out. All I am saying here is that your clear-cut "It's impossible" stance isn't correct. Sc2 doesn't work like that. It's a far more fluid game with a lot more nuance and dynamic than your statement gives it credit for. Just like the 1-1-1 was never impossible to hold? Yeah, you're right, it wasn't. But Protoss sure made it sound like it. And then immortals got buffed, gg. Stop whining. Only way to get buffed...
The bumhurt is strong with this one.
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EPT
