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On November 10 2013 17:42 bias- wrote:
As an old time watcher and BW vet, it's a shame to see all-inning and gambling such a strong part of SC2 as an RTS. Superior mechanics, scouting, and 'a legitimate tactical playing field' should decide the victor.
The amount of bullshit you can pull off as toss is also what really makes watching SC2 unfun for me. While yes this is coming from a somewhat sc2 noob (bw vet), their all-in ability from their extreme mobility at any time despite good scouting (say you just miss that one cliff with a pylon) just defies a lot of the basics of an RTS. It took an Arbiter Tribunal to even reserach recall for what they have now for almost free. Scouting an army moving out, giving time to react, just isn't there. /end noob take on frustrations watching sc2 and BW fan watching BW player lose that last game as he did
I thought so too in the beginning. Now I don't mind the cheese as much and I'm not even sure that it plays a so much bigger role than in bw. What bothers me though is that you never see people claw there way back in a game with better micro and macro in sc2. Its decided super fast and there is nothing that the player that is behind can do to come back.
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On November 10 2013 17:49 Sabu113 wrote:
So apparently sOs & JD were Hwaseung Oz teammates.
yeah they were. and you know who else? Dear.
Somewhere coahch Cho is proud...
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Caldeum1977 Posts
On November 10 2013 20:06 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 17:42 bias- wrote:
As an old time watcher and BW vet, it's a shame to see all-inning and gambling such a strong part of SC2 as an RTS. Superior mechanics, scouting, and 'a legitimate tactical playing field' should decide the victor.
The amount of bullshit you can pull off as toss is also what really makes watching SC2 unfun for me. While yes this is coming from a somewhat sc2 noob (bw vet), their all-in ability from their extreme mobility at any time despite good scouting (say you just miss that one cliff with a pylon) just defies a lot of the basics of an RTS. It took an Arbiter Tribunal to even reserach recall for what they have now for almost free. Scouting an army moving out, giving time to react, just isn't there. /end noob take on frustrations watching sc2 and BW fan watching BW player lose that last game as he did I thought so too in the beginning. Now I don't mind the cheese as much and I'm not even sure that it plays a so much bigger role than in bw. What bothers me though is that you never see people claw there way back in a game with better micro and macro in sc2. Its decided super fast and there is nothing that the player that is behind can do to come back.
mvp came back twice from having almost zero scvs in season 1 finals if I recall.
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On November 10 2013 20:02 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 19:55 vthree wrote:On November 10 2013 19:34 Swiipii wrote:On November 10 2013 18:20 xContagion wrote:On November 10 2013 18:00 ElvenAshwin wrote:
At the end of the day, I will admit the series was painful to watch as a zerg, seeing the best of your race falling to something you can see on ladder. So, were you delighted to see JD cheese his way to the finals? You're mixing up Zerg and Protoss. It was never random agression with no scout whatsoever. Every time he did an agressive strat it was because of something he scouted (a fast 3rd command center, a counter to a counter etc). JD scouted Maru before doing a 10 pool? All Protoss 2 base all-ins vs Zerg are done with scouting information I wish people would stop calling them 2 base all ins. They're timing attacks for crying out loud, nothing is truely all in unless you make 0 workers at the start of the game or you pull everything you have to help go attack. Heck, Toss can even recall once they kill the third base. Why the majority of them don't I have no idea, it's like they don't want Protoss to ever be seen as interesting. Sorry, I've just woken up bitter about Jaedong losing last night before I went to sleep and I just get annoyed when I see the term all-in be used every time someone attacks before they get their third base.
to be fair, the immortal zealot attack has to outright kill the zerg otherwise Protoss is stuck with basic robotics tech with 1 gas and 30 probes and that will just lose to any zerg that holds. I'd say it is as all-in as it gets...
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On November 10 2013 18:31 MaestroSC wrote:
I know that i might get flamed for this slight exaggeration/observation...
but seriously what they made DjWheat do... THIS is what everyone is complaining about when it comes to Blizzard and it supporting their own games...
seriously they just force an end to one of those moments that everyone loves in competition/esports... and then to just give ads for the next 30 mins...
I know it 1000% was Wheats fault... and maybe not blizzards, but even then someone at blizzard should have been yelling at the guy yelling in Wheats ear that they could wait another 15 minutes... after all they were just promoting the game and promoting appreciation of their game...
was such a cringeworthy sort of concise moment that sums up Blizzard and its support of its game. imo
/equips fireproof shield
and how much of a hater do you have to be to think that ?!?
djwheat did a great job.
blizzard also did a great job. the only thing that was disappointing was the ending. (which was really disapointing ^^)
ofc, only my opinions.
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On November 10 2013 20:13 Valiver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 20:06 Elroi wrote:On November 10 2013 17:42 bias- wrote:
As an old time watcher and BW vet, it's a shame to see all-inning and gambling such a strong part of SC2 as an RTS. Superior mechanics, scouting, and 'a legitimate tactical playing field' should decide the victor.
The amount of bullshit you can pull off as toss is also what really makes watching SC2 unfun for me. While yes this is coming from a somewhat sc2 noob (bw vet), their all-in ability from their extreme mobility at any time despite good scouting (say you just miss that one cliff with a pylon) just defies a lot of the basics of an RTS. It took an Arbiter Tribunal to even reserach recall for what they have now for almost free. Scouting an army moving out, giving time to react, just isn't there. /end noob take on frustrations watching sc2 and BW fan watching BW player lose that last game as he did I thought so too in the beginning. Now I don't mind the cheese as much and I'm not even sure that it plays a so much bigger role than in bw. What bothers me though is that you never see people claw there way back in a game with better micro and macro in sc2. Its decided super fast and there is nothing that the player that is behind can do to come back. mvp came back twice from having almost zero scvs in season 1 finals if I recall.
There was that 9 scv to 3x vs Innovation game where he came back. I believe the link to that was in some of the hype threads.
My all time favourite Mvp comeback was one he lost though. Vs a zerg he got wrecked early and for the rest of the game never had more than 100 supply. But the zerg couldn't kill him for a very long time. It was beautiful.
Someone must know that game btw. Was it vs Leenock in 2011 or Life in 2012? I can't quite remember clearly...
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On November 10 2013 20:13 Valiver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 20:06 Elroi wrote:On November 10 2013 17:42 bias- wrote:
As an old time watcher and BW vet, it's a shame to see all-inning and gambling such a strong part of SC2 as an RTS. Superior mechanics, scouting, and 'a legitimate tactical playing field' should decide the victor.
The amount of bullshit you can pull off as toss is also what really makes watching SC2 unfun for me. While yes this is coming from a somewhat sc2 noob (bw vet), their all-in ability from their extreme mobility at any time despite good scouting (say you just miss that one cliff with a pylon) just defies a lot of the basics of an RTS. It took an Arbiter Tribunal to even reserach recall for what they have now for almost free. Scouting an army moving out, giving time to react, just isn't there. /end noob take on frustrations watching sc2 and BW fan watching BW player lose that last game as he did I thought so too in the beginning. Now I don't mind the cheese as much and I'm not even sure that it plays a so much bigger role than in bw. What bothers me though is that you never see people claw there way back in a game with better micro and macro in sc2. Its decided super fast and there is nothing that the player that is behind can do to come back. mvp came back twice from having almost zero scvs in season 1 finals if I recall.
sOs made a crazy comeback against polt in this very tournament, Game one is a bit like a comeback from sOs also. Jaedong made sort of a comeback in game three...
I think that what is perceived as cheese is often the result of good scouting and decision making and also cheese on the other side (like 3 hatch before pool is a cheese, punished by cannon rushes and good scout).
What is seen as gambling is very often simply decision making.
Edit: the comeback of sOs is perhaps rather against bomber.
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United States97277 Posts
On November 10 2013 20:20 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 20:13 Valiver wrote:On November 10 2013 20:06 Elroi wrote:On November 10 2013 17:42 bias- wrote:
As an old time watcher and BW vet, it's a shame to see all-inning and gambling such a strong part of SC2 as an RTS. Superior mechanics, scouting, and 'a legitimate tactical playing field' should decide the victor.
The amount of bullshit you can pull off as toss is also what really makes watching SC2 unfun for me. While yes this is coming from a somewhat sc2 noob (bw vet), their all-in ability from their extreme mobility at any time despite good scouting (say you just miss that one cliff with a pylon) just defies a lot of the basics of an RTS. It took an Arbiter Tribunal to even reserach recall for what they have now for almost free. Scouting an army moving out, giving time to react, just isn't there. /end noob take on frustrations watching sc2 and BW fan watching BW player lose that last game as he did I thought so too in the beginning. Now I don't mind the cheese as much and I'm not even sure that it plays a so much bigger role than in bw. What bothers me though is that you never see people claw there way back in a game with better micro and macro in sc2. Its decided super fast and there is nothing that the player that is behind can do to come back. mvp came back twice from having almost zero scvs in season 1 finals if I recall. There was that 9 scv to 3x vs Innovation game where he came back. I believe the link to that was in some of the hype threads. My all time favourite Mvp comeback was one he lost though. Vs a zerg he got wrecked early and for the rest of the game never had more than 100 supply. But the zerg couldn't kill him for a very long time. It was beautiful. Someone must know that game btw. Was it vs Leenock in 2011 or Life in 2012? I can't quite remember clearly...
Sounds like the vs Leenock game in GSL Nov 2011 Ro4 on Dual Sight with the 3 marine 40 min push because Mvp wouldn't die forever
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors7/vod/66507
set 2
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On November 10 2013 20:25 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 20:20 bittman wrote:On November 10 2013 20:13 Valiver wrote:On November 10 2013 20:06 Elroi wrote:On November 10 2013 17:42 bias- wrote:
As an old time watcher and BW vet, it's a shame to see all-inning and gambling such a strong part of SC2 as an RTS. Superior mechanics, scouting, and 'a legitimate tactical playing field' should decide the victor.
The amount of bullshit you can pull off as toss is also what really makes watching SC2 unfun for me. While yes this is coming from a somewhat sc2 noob (bw vet), their all-in ability from their extreme mobility at any time despite good scouting (say you just miss that one cliff with a pylon) just defies a lot of the basics of an RTS. It took an Arbiter Tribunal to even reserach recall for what they have now for almost free. Scouting an army moving out, giving time to react, just isn't there. /end noob take on frustrations watching sc2 and BW fan watching BW player lose that last game as he did I thought so too in the beginning. Now I don't mind the cheese as much and I'm not even sure that it plays a so much bigger role than in bw. What bothers me though is that you never see people claw there way back in a game with better micro and macro in sc2. Its decided super fast and there is nothing that the player that is behind can do to come back. mvp came back twice from having almost zero scvs in season 1 finals if I recall. There was that 9 scv to 3x vs Innovation game where he came back. I believe the link to that was in some of the hype threads. My all time favourite Mvp comeback was one he lost though. Vs a zerg he got wrecked early and for the rest of the game never had more than 100 supply. But the zerg couldn't kill him for a very long time. It was beautiful. Someone must know that game btw. Was it vs Leenock in 2011 or Life in 2012? I can't quite remember clearly... Sounds like the vs Leenock game in GSL Nov 2011 Ro4 on Dual Sight with the 3 marine 40 min push because Mvp wouldn't die forever
The simple fact that casters are wrong so often in game about the outcome indicate that comeback happens (not only that casters suck).
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On November 10 2013 19:34 Swiipii wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 18:20 xContagion wrote:On November 10 2013 18:00 ElvenAshwin wrote:
At the end of the day, I will admit the series was painful to watch as a zerg, seeing the best of your race falling to something you can see on ladder. So, were you delighted to see JD cheese his way to the finals? You're mixing up Zerg and Protoss. It was never random agression with no scout whatsoever. Every time he did an agressive strat it was because of something he scouted (a fast 3rd command center, a counter to a counter etc).
Well he went 10 pool against Maru in game 1 even though he didn't scout anything at the time.
All races and all players cheese. Only difference is that when we cheer for a player cheese bothers us, but if our favorite player cheeses, than it is mind games, variety etc.
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The amount of JD apologists in this thread is crazy. My friends from university were going through the games one by one and it became pretty clear that he was just not playing very intelligently and didn't get taken out "undeservedly".
game 1- JD goes for a roach hydra viper timing on akilon (the hardest map to break a turtle player on) and then transitioned into ultralisks when that didn't kill SoS (and after seeing that SoS already had a solid 3 base econ and sim city).
game 2- the cannon rush puts JD significantly behind but his idea of "coming back" consists of going double spire against SoS after scouting double stargate (I think)... either way SoS is known to love playing SG macro games
game 3- JD wins with solid mechanics even though he doesn't realize SoS is on an extra saturated base the entire game
game 4- JD scouts one gas and a warp prism and proceeds to get 54 drones vs 30 probes
game 5- JD's lings miss a probe that goes right in front of them and drops a proxy pylon. Then he loses the game to a zealot warp in
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On November 10 2013 20:52 Erik.TheRed wrote:
The amount of JD apologists in this thread is crazy. My friends from university were going through the games one by one and it became pretty clear that he was just not playing very intelligently and didn't get taken out "undeservedly".
game 1- JD goes for a roach hydra viper timing on akilon (the hardest map to break a turtle player on) and then transitioned into ultralisks when that didn't kill SoS (and after seeing that SoS already had a solid 3 base econ and sim city).
game 2- the cannon rush puts JD significantly behind but his idea of "coming back" consists of going double spire against SoS after scouting double stargate (I think)... either way SoS is known to love playing SG macro games
game 3- JD wins with solid mechanics even though he doesn't realize SoS is on an extra saturated base the entire game
game 4- JD scouts one gas and a warp prism and proceeds to get 54 drones vs 30 probes
game 5- JD's lings miss a probe that goes right in front of them and drops a proxy pylon. Then he loses the game to a zealot warp in
Nothing against you but holy god, when will people learn that he's sOs, not SoS????????
Driving me crazy yo.
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On November 10 2013 20:52 Erik.TheRed wrote:
The amount of JD apologists in this thread is crazy. My friends from university were going through the games one by one and it became pretty clear that he was just not playing very intelligently and didn't get taken out "undeservedly".
game 1- JD goes for a roach hydra viper timing on akilon (the hardest map to break a turtle player on) and then transitioned into ultralisks when that didn't kill SoS (and after seeing that SoS already had a solid 3 base econ and sim city).
game 2- the cannon rush puts JD significantly behind but his idea of "coming back" consists of going double spire against SoS after scouting double stargate (I think)... either way SoS is known to love playing SG macro games
game 3- JD wins with solid mechanics even though he doesn't realize SoS is on an extra saturated base the entire game
game 4- JD scouts one gas and a warp prism and proceeds to get 54 drones vs 30 probes
game 5- JD's lings miss a probe that goes right in front of them and drops a proxy pylon. Then he loses the game to a zealot warp in
Really good points. JD just got thrown off his game by the unpredictability of SoS. Unfortunate forhim, but well played by SoS.
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JD didn't played as good ZvP as he did against Dear : huge missreading in game 4, bad scouting of the pylon, bad game plan on akilon...
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On November 10 2013 20:52 Erik.TheRed wrote:
The amount of JD apologists in this thread is crazy. My friends from university were going through the games one by one and it became pretty clear that he was just not playing very intelligently and didn't get taken out "undeservedly".
game 1- JD goes for a roach hydra viper timing on akilon (the hardest map to break a turtle player on) and then transitioned into ultralisks when that didn't kill SoS (and after seeing that SoS already had a solid 3 base econ and sim city).
game 2- the cannon rush puts JD significantly behind but his idea of "coming back" consists of going double spire against SoS after scouting double stargate (I think)... either way SoS is known to love playing SG macro games
game 3- JD wins with solid mechanics even though he doesn't realize SoS is on an extra saturated base the entire game
game 4- JD scouts one gas and a warp prism and proceeds to get 54 drones vs 30 probes
game 5- JD's lings miss a probe that goes right in front of them and drops a proxy pylon. Then he loses the game to a zealot warp in
Haha it's funny how you pull the "my friend from university" card to make it look more serious. I mean yeah you are right but it doesn't take a Ph. D. to realize that sOs outplayed JD :D!
Now that I slept over it and saw Jaedong's tweet, I'm happy again! GO n.Die_Jaaedong! 2014 IS YOURS!
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On November 10 2013 20:56 Keeemy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 20:52 Erik.TheRed wrote:
The amount of JD apologists in this thread is crazy. My friends from university were going through the games one by one and it became pretty clear that he was just not playing very intelligently and didn't get taken out "undeservedly".
game 1- JD goes for a roach hydra viper timing on akilon (the hardest map to break a turtle player on) and then transitioned into ultralisks when that didn't kill SoS (and after seeing that SoS already had a solid 3 base econ and sim city).
game 2- the cannon rush puts JD significantly behind but his idea of "coming back" consists of going double spire against SoS after scouting double stargate (I think)... either way SoS is known to love playing SG macro games
game 3- JD wins with solid mechanics even though he doesn't realize SoS is on an extra saturated base the entire game
game 4- JD scouts one gas and a warp prism and proceeds to get 54 drones vs 30 probes
game 5- JD's lings miss a probe that goes right in front of them and drops a proxy pylon. Then he loses the game to a zealot warp in Nothing against you but holy god, when will people learn that he's sOs, not SoS???????? Driving me crazy yo.
On November 10 2013 20:56 CaptainSlow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 20:52 Erik.TheRed wrote:
The amount of JD apologists in this thread is crazy. My friends from university were going through the games one by one and it became pretty clear that he was just not playing very intelligently and didn't get taken out "undeservedly".
game 1- JD goes for a roach hydra viper timing on akilon (the hardest map to break a turtle player on) and then transitioned into ultralisks when that didn't kill SoS (and after seeing that SoS already had a solid 3 base econ and sim city).
game 2- the cannon rush puts JD significantly behind but his idea of "coming back" consists of going double spire against SoS after scouting double stargate (I think)... either way SoS is known to love playing SG macro games
game 3- JD wins with solid mechanics even though he doesn't realize SoS is on an extra saturated base the entire game
game 4- JD scouts one gas and a warp prism and proceeds to get 54 drones vs 30 probes
game 5- JD's lings miss a probe that goes right in front of them and drops a proxy pylon. Then he loses the game to a zealot warp in Really good points. JD just got thrown off his game by the unpredictability of SoS. Unfortunate forhim, but well played by SoS.
facepalm. it reallllly bugs me...
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On November 10 2013 19:04 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2013 18:57 Tipany wrote:On November 10 2013 18:50 Khul Sadukar wrote:
sOs
The champion we deserved, but not the one we wanted. Wait. Why did we deserve sOs as the champion? I never really understood that quote... In TDK at least, it's meant to say that we're not good/virtuous enough to deserve more, so that's who we end up having. Here I don't know, sOs seems champion enough to me, the guy played out of his mind all tournament long :D
Pretty sure that's not right.
Batman is the hero Gotham deserves = a true hero
...but not the one it needs = Gotham needs a white knight in which to trust rather than a faceless vigilante
Dent is the hero Gotham needs = a white knight in which to trust
...but not the one it deserves = Dent is not a true hero but the people around him try to keep up that facade, the people of Gotham deserves better
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I still think Dear, Maru, sOs > Jaedong
Dear/sOs vs Maru would have been a closer finals
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On November 10 2013 21:30 Strivers wrote:
I still think Dear, Maru, sOs > Jaedong
Dear/sOs vs Maru would have been a closer finals
you mean sOs vs Dear/Maru? 
imo the finals would have been much different if jaedong wins the first game.
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On November 10 2013 21:30 Strivers wrote:
I still think Dear, Maru, sOs > Jaedong
Dear/sOs vs Maru would have been a closer finals
what kind of bs is that? Jaedong beat Maru and Dear convincingly.
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EPT
