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On September 05 2013 21:55 RifleCow wrote:
If your toss is playing greedy, then an SCV pull is the right choice. People should really look into the games instead of blaming balance all the time. Aggressive cheeses and all-ins happened all the time in BW.
The difference is people can give you a several series in BW that are hands down one of the best games ever played, despite being cheeses / all-ins.
ForGG vs Kal on Tiamat (and few other Kal vs ForGG ones, cough* scouts )is still one of my favorite game, the difference between one is, ForGG prepared the meticilous rax build with ring of turrets to prevent obs scout and faked standard play from the front.
Which ensued into 5-8min battle between marine/tank and reaver/dragoon.
And in case of current flavor of the month in SC2's TvP is "oh i have a timing" *bunch scv*. Which again is being copied by several other pros.
People are just angry at the fact that the current highest level meta is such unelegant play. Which relies on bunching your workers before you opponent does something. There is no much *essence* there, if you bunch those scv into storms you die if you bunch those scv before storm you get enough meatshield to push through.
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I'm not sure anyone likes to watch scv pulls every TvP but for the player it's a necessity to be able to do it and know when to do it.
It does make me sad whenever I see it because I'd love to see the terran win out in a longer game so I can study it and learn butttt that rarely ever happens ;_;
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Thanks for the OP!
And thanks Monk for the Pokemon.
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Hahahahaha hyvaa! xD Good job Flash! ^^
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On September 05 2013 22:18 Dark.Carnival wrote:
I'm not sure anyone likes to watch scv pulls every TvP but for the player it's a necessity to be able to do it and know when to do it.
It does make me sad whenever I see it because I'd love to see the terran win out in a longer game so I can study it and learn butttt that rarely ever happens ;_;
When protosses adjust their build to not die to it, funnily enough, we won't see it as often.
The ball is in our camp.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 05 2013 22:18 Dark.Carnival wrote:
I'm not sure anyone likes to watch scv pulls every TvP but for the player it's a necessity to be able to do it and know when to do it.
It does make me sad whenever I see it because I'd love to see the terran win out in a longer game so I can study it and learn butttt that rarely ever happens ;_;
Because the only modern way for terran to win in longer TvP is to be notably better player than opponent during the game.
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On September 05 2013 22:16 DinoToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:55 RifleCow wrote:
If your toss is playing greedy, then an SCV pull is the right choice. People should really look into the games instead of blaming balance all the time. Aggressive cheeses and all-ins happened all the time in BW. The difference is people can give you a several series in BW that are hands down one of the best games ever played, despite being cheeses / all-ins. ForGG vs Kal on Tiamat (and few other Kal vs ForGG ones, cough* scouts )is still one of my favorite game, the difference between one is, ForGG prepared the meticilous rax build with ring of turrets to prevent obs scout and faked standard play from the front. Which ensued into 5-8min battle between marine/tank and reaver/dragoon. And in case of current flavor of the month in SC2's TvP is "oh i have a timing" *bunch scv*. Which again is being copied by several other pros. People are just angry at the fact that the current highest level meta is such unelegant play. Which relies on bunching your workers before you opponent does something. There is no much *essence* there, if you bunch those scv into storms you die if you bunch those scv before storm you get enough meatshield to push through.
Yeah that's pretty much my thoughts. I don't dislike cheese, unlike people here seems to have interpreted my posts. Cheese can be elegant. But SCV pull is kinda binary. 0 or 1. And you don't even need to hide it long before you go. Choose a timing, arrive before storms -> win, after storms -> lose.
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I have to say, the SCV pulling business is really annoying except for early defense. Even as a terran player, it's too good. I pulled all my SCV's to defende against aggression because I was playing too greedy, and even then, I was able to claw my way back into the game after like 5 minutes because mules off 3 CC is just that good. Pulling SCV's in the midgame is just stupid. At that point, Terran wants to start thinning out supply for more army anyway because they're getting up to 4-5 CC, which is all the mineral income you need lategame unless you're going hardcore only-marine or something else that resembles playing terran like you play zerg.
In BW it was nothing like this; you could pull a few SCV's here or there, but it was pretty much all for cheese. It made more sense back then because the SCV had more HP and was much better at tanking. Furthermore, you could stack the hell out of them and right-click on minerals and just end up "kage bushin no jutsu-ing" their goons. You would never pull workers when you were going bio, unless you were doing the most desperate deep-6 in the game.
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On September 05 2013 22:21 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:18 Dark.Carnival wrote:
I'm not sure anyone likes to watch scv pulls every TvP but for the player it's a necessity to be able to do it and know when to do it.
It does make me sad whenever I see it because I'd love to see the terran win out in a longer game so I can study it and learn butttt that rarely ever happens ;_; Because the only modern way for terran to win in longer TvP is to be notably better player than opponent during the game.
That shouldn't be a problem then, every terran I've ever met thinks he's notably better than any protoss.
(seriously how can you recognize that Samurai's complaint is dumb and answer it with this?)
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On September 05 2013 22:15 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:12 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 22:09 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 22:04 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax? In the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it. Well, going both HT, coll before third is basically 'tech cheese' if you will. Basically you are coin flipping that the Terran won't recognize it and pull SCVs. People have to remember these aren't blind SCVs pulls, they are done as a response to the lack of sentries. Protoss players used to have enough sentries to hold off the Terran army forever. Now, because they have MSC as early defense, they are dumping all their gas into tech. If you let them get away with it, they have a pretty big advantage. I am not blaming cheese in this particular case. I just think this is not pretty, this even looks boring to me. Now you can say what you want but let me think that those SCV pulls are not how I want SC2 to be please. Period. I don't enjoy it myself either. But what I am trying to explain is why we are seeing it much more often.
OK I see. This makes sense indeed.
Edit: sorry if it looked like I was raging/whining. After seeing a certain amount of SCV pulls I can't help but react about them. I know I shouldn't. To be fair it's more wishing some change for the beauty of the game than just balance whining though.
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On September 05 2013 22:16 DinoToss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:55 RifleCow wrote:
If your toss is playing greedy, then an SCV pull is the right choice. People should really look into the games instead of blaming balance all the time. Aggressive cheeses and all-ins happened all the time in BW. The difference is people can give you a several series in BW that are hands down one of the best games ever played, despite being cheeses / all-ins. ForGG vs Kal on Tiamat (and few other Kal vs ForGG ones, cough* scouts )is still one of my favorite game, the difference between one is, ForGG prepared the meticilous rax build with ring of turrets to prevent obs scout and faked standard play from the front. Which ensued into 5-8min battle between marine/tank and reaver/dragoon. And in case of current flavor of the month in SC2's TvP is "oh i have a timing" *bunch scv*. Which again is being copied by several other pros. People are just angry at the fact that the current highest level meta is such unelegant play. Which relies on bunching your workers before you opponent does something. There is no much *essence* there, if you bunch those scv into storms you die if you bunch those scv before storm you get enough meatshield to push through.
Post of the month here
solid stuff
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On September 05 2013 22:26 Phyanketto wrote:
I have to say, the SCV pulling business is really annoying except for early defense. Even as a terran player, it's too good. I pulled all my SCV's to defende against aggression because I was playing too greedy, and even then, I was able to claw my way back into the game after like 5 minutes because mules off 3 CC is just that good. Pulling SCV's in the midgame is just stupid. At that point, Terran wants to start thinning out supply for more army anyway because they're getting up to 4-5 CC, which is all the mineral income you need lategame unless you're going hardcore only-marine or something else that resembles playing terran like you play zerg.
In BW it was nothing like this; you could pull a few SCV's here or there, but it was pretty much all for cheese. It made more sense back then because the SCV had more HP and was much better at tanking. Furthermore, you could stack the hell out of them and right-click on minerals and just end up "kage bushin no jutsu-ing" their goons. You would never pull workers when you were going bio, unless you were doing the most desperate deep-6 in the game.
Do you even play or watch this game? These SCVs pulls are done with minimal AOE for the Protoss out. Are you tell me you have 4-5 CCs when Protoss still doesn't have much AoE?
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Well whatever.
I don't think the right reaction to Jjakji getting back to Ro16 for the first time in a long while is "omg his strats are evil".
That being said, I don't think the right reaction to seeing that reaction is "btw we won but you're still OP easymode blablabla"
Cliffs: I hate y'all.
See you later. Good job Jjakji. Enjoy the games, people.
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On September 05 2013 22:33 Nebuchad wrote:
Well whatever.
I don't think the right reaction to Jjakji getting back to Ro16 for the first time in a long while is "omg his strats are evil".
That being said, I don't think the right reaction to seeing that reaction is "btw we won but you're still OP easymode blablabla"
Cliffs: I hate y'all.
See you later. Good job Jjakji. Enjoy the games, people.
Yep, see you on WCS EU maybe. Hoping for some Showtime with Mvp 
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Great to see Jjakji do well!
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On September 05 2013 22:29 Heinsenzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:16 DinoToss wrote:On September 05 2013 21:55 RifleCow wrote:
If your toss is playing greedy, then an SCV pull is the right choice. People should really look into the games instead of blaming balance all the time. Aggressive cheeses and all-ins happened all the time in BW. The difference is people can give you a several series in BW that are hands down one of the best games ever played, despite being cheeses / all-ins. ForGG vs Kal on Tiamat (and few other Kal vs ForGG ones, cough* scouts )is still one of my favorite game, the difference between one is, ForGG prepared the meticilous rax build with ring of turrets to prevent obs scout and faked standard play from the front. Which ensued into 5-8min battle between marine/tank and reaver/dragoon. And in case of current flavor of the month in SC2's TvP is "oh i have a timing" *bunch scv*. Which again is being copied by several other pros. People are just angry at the fact that the current highest level meta is such unelegant play. Which relies on bunching your workers before you opponent does something. There is no much *essence* there, if you bunch those scv into storms you die if you bunch those scv before storm you get enough meatshield to push through. Post of the month here solid stuff
But why is this the current meta? It has to do with Protoss players as much as Terran players. Protoss players in the current meta are relying a lot more on the MSC for early defense and dumping their gases into upgrades and both AoEs options. As many have stated, SCVs pulls have existed from 2010. Why is the meta shifting to it now? In WoL, SCV pulls were pretty much denied by just forcefielding and buying time for more colossi to come out. But since protoss no longer need take many sentries to defend that first marine/medivac poke, they simply don't have the sentry count to stale for their AoE. Give First 3-4 more sentries and he holds that easy.
And why do protoss skip sentries. Because if they can get both AoEs out, the gas spent on AoE is more valuable than gas on sentries.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Flash winning was expected but Jjakji winning against First twice was certainly not :O Isn't First a PvT expert, one of the best? Maybe Jjakji has gotten that much better.
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Damn it Jjakji, why pick today to be goodl TT
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 05 2013 22:46 Kasaraki wrote:
Damn it Jjakji, why pick today to be goodl TT
to make sure First doesn't get through 
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EPT
