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On September 05 2013 21:53 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:52 Hryul wrote:On September 05 2013 21:45 Thrillz wrote:On September 05 2013 21:43 Viserion wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder Then tell Blizzard to fix late game TvP. This, there is not many terrans who are willing to fight against 200/200 max protoss army with double Time Warps on the ground. "But asymmetric balance so it's all good herp derp" -Blizzard Turns out that doesn't work. It can work if done right. obviously there are some issues that discourage Terrans from entering the stage of the game where storm is available but they can't reduce their army yet through mules. Not like terrans have ghosts. And even without them, lately a lot of terrans have shown how to crush a protoss with storm even without ghosts.
Yes, and that is why the TvP win rate is like 60% for T, right?
And First just showed how to crush the SCV in game 1 in the first match. So why is it a problem?
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On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago.
Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax?
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On September 05 2013 21:59 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but using SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Strats aren't there to sound right, strats are there to work. Seems this one works. As a protoss you should be as experienced as I am in getting shat on whenever you win a game. That's not a good experience. Don't replicate it for the other races please.
I know it's done to work, and it does, but this is still really ugly. You could say the same of a photon rush I wouldn't blame you.
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Toss getting both COLL and HT before the 3rd is up is like the terran getting double starport AND ghosts before the 3rd is up. Its stupid and SHOULD be punished and taken advantage of.
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On September 05 2013 21:53 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:52 Hryul wrote:On September 05 2013 21:45 Thrillz wrote:On September 05 2013 21:43 Viserion wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder Then tell Blizzard to fix late game TvP. This, there is not many terrans who are willing to fight against 200/200 max protoss army with double Time Warps on the ground. "But asymmetric balance so it's all good herp derp" -Blizzard Turns out that doesn't work. It can work if done right. obviously there are some issues that discourage Terrans from entering the stage of the game where storm is available but they can't reduce their army yet through mules. Not like terrans have ghosts. And even without them, lately a lot of terrans have shown how to crush a protoss with storm even without ghosts.
I've seen some of the games and if I see it right, they are trying to play a more marauder-heavy style so they are more resilient to storms. I forgot who it was but this was combined with hellbats to compensate for the lesser firepower against zealots.
also "having ghosts" is different from the ability to use them when need be. A lot of protoss' have started flanking with HT which is quite taxing for terrans. it also punishes the Low hp and high unit density of Marines.
I don't know if this really is viable in the long run, I haven't tried it yet but it would be a nice change to the current meta.
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On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax?
In the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it.
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On September 05 2013 22:04 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax? That's not exactly the same stage of the game. And in the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it.
So how is it like Naniwa's probe rush when it is not at the same stage either.
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On September 05 2013 22:04 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax? In the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it.
cheese at the 13 min mark seems a bit far stretched, no?
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On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago.
Uhhh wtf, it's does not look as stupid to Naniwa probe rush LOL. PvT lategame is hard, when Protoss is looking ahead to play the lategame too much than they can die. Worker pulls happen in many strats, these games happen to to be such.
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On September 05 2013 22:02 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 21:59 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but using SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Strats aren't there to sound right, strats are there to work. Seems this one works. As a protoss you should be as experienced as I am in getting shat on whenever you win a game. That's not a good experience. Don't replicate it for the other races please. I know it's done to work, and it does, but this is still really ugly. You could say the same of a photon rush I wouldn't blame you.
It's units on a screen in a videogame. Nothing is ugly until you decide it is. If I can't hold a photon rush, why shouldn't my opponent do it to me? If First can't hold this SCV pull, why shouldn't jjakji do it? Honor?
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On September 05 2013 22:04 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax? In the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it.
Early pool drone pulls?Early pool with spines? 2 Rax?
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On September 05 2013 22:03 stratmatt wrote:
Toss getting both COLL and HT before the 3rd is up is like the terran getting double starport AND ghosts before the 3rd is up. Its stupid and SHOULD be punished and taken advantage of.
I agree with you but it often appears than even if not greedy, protoss barely can hold to a good terran's pressure if they only have one type of AOE after the 3rd is up and running. Well at least that's how looked the TvPs I saw recently when protoss was late to get his second AOE tech.
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On September 05 2013 22:04 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax? In the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it.
Well, going both HT, coll before third is basically 'tech cheese' if you will. Basically you are coin flipping that the Terran won't recognize it and pull SCVs. People have to remember these aren't blind SCVs pulls, they are done as a response to the lack of sentries. Protoss players used to have enough sentries to hold off the Terran army forever. Now, because they have MSC as early defense, they are dumping all their gas into tech. If you let them get away with it, they have a pretty big advantage.
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This match-up is indeed starting to get uglier and uglier.
I'd rather still see hellbat drops.
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On September 05 2013 22:09 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:02 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:59 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but using SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Strats aren't there to sound right, strats are there to work. Seems this one works. As a protoss you should be as experienced as I am in getting shat on whenever you win a game. That's not a good experience. Don't replicate it for the other races please. I know it's done to work, and it does, but this is still really ugly. You could say the same of a photon rush I wouldn't blame you. It's units on a screen in a videogame. Nothing is ugly until you decide it is. If I can't hold a photon rush, why shouldn't my opponent do it to me? If First can't hold this SCV pull, why shouldn't jjakji do it? Honor?
Did I say Jjakji shouldn't do it ?
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On September 05 2013 22:09 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:04 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax? In the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it. Well, going both HT, coll before third is basically 'tech cheese' if you will. Basically you are coin flipping that the Terran won't recognize it and pull SCVs. People have to remember these aren't blind SCVs pulls, they are done as a response to the lack of sentries. Protoss players used to have enough sentries to hold off the Terran army forever. Now, because they have MSC as early defense, they are dumping all their gas into tech. If you let them get away with it, they have a pretty big advantage.
I am not blaming cheese in this particular case. I just think this is not pretty, this even looks boring to me. Now you can say what you want but let me think that those SCV pulls are not how I want SC2 to be please. Period.
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On September 05 2013 22:10 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:09 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 22:02 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:59 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but using SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Strats aren't there to sound right, strats are there to work. Seems this one works. As a protoss you should be as experienced as I am in getting shat on whenever you win a game. That's not a good experience. Don't replicate it for the other races please. I know it's done to work, and it does, but this is still really ugly. You could say the same of a photon rush I wouldn't blame you. It's units on a screen in a videogame. Nothing is ugly until you decide it is. If I can't hold a photon rush, why shouldn't my opponent do it to me? If First can't hold this SCV pull, why shouldn't jjakji do it? Honor? Did I say Jjakji shouldn't do it ?
Well, yes, you did. Maybe not consciously, but you did.
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On September 05 2013 22:12 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:10 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 22:09 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 22:02 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:59 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but using SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Strats aren't there to sound right, strats are there to work. Seems this one works. As a protoss you should be as experienced as I am in getting shat on whenever you win a game. That's not a good experience. Don't replicate it for the other races please. I know it's done to work, and it does, but this is still really ugly. You could say the same of a photon rush I wouldn't blame you. It's units on a screen in a videogame. Nothing is ugly until you decide it is. If I can't hold a photon rush, why shouldn't my opponent do it to me? If First can't hold this SCV pull, why shouldn't jjakji do it? Honor? Did I say Jjakji shouldn't do it ? Well, yes, you did. Maybe not consciously, but you did.
Maybe not consciously you misunderstood what I meant...
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On September 05 2013 22:12 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2013 22:09 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 22:04 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 22:02 vthree wrote:On September 05 2013 21:56 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:54 Nebuchad wrote:On September 05 2013 21:48 samurai80 wrote:On September 05 2013 21:41 eGoRama wrote:
The SCV pulls are really starting to annoy me in this match up. Also one of the few things that makes me mad in my PvT on ladder It's not only starting to annoy me, it's just been disgusting me for a pretty long time. Oh my god, he's using his race's advantages, that's disgusting! Sorry but SCVs are not supposed to be used in fights everytime. That just doesn't sound right. For me it looks almost as stupid as Naniwa's probe rush a long time ago. Just like zergs shouldn't be able to pull drones to hold off 2 rax? In the case you mention it's replying to a cheese, not initiating it. Well, going both HT, coll before third is basically 'tech cheese' if you will. Basically you are coin flipping that the Terran won't recognize it and pull SCVs. People have to remember these aren't blind SCVs pulls, they are done as a response to the lack of sentries. Protoss players used to have enough sentries to hold off the Terran army forever. Now, because they have MSC as early defense, they are dumping all their gas into tech. If you let them get away with it, they have a pretty big advantage. I am not blaming cheese in this particular case. I just think this is not pretty, this even looks boring to me. Now you can say what you want but let me think that those SCV pulls are not how I want SC2 to be please. Period.
I don't enjoy it myself either. But what I am trying to explain is why we are seeing it much more often.
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