On July 30 2013 19:28 Muffloe wrote: Alot of people seem surprised, but I KNEW it would be a esf-finals. Mind blown? Well, if you look at the overall gameflow it is quite easy to predict
Lol. I forgot to look at the overall gameflow, my bad.
On July 30 2013 19:28 Muffloe wrote: Alot of people seem surprised, but I KNEW it would be a esf-finals. Mind blown? Well, if you look at the overall gameflow it is quite easy to predict
Lol. I forgot to look at the overall gameflow, my bad.
i, on the other hand, am a fuckin gameflow master
Did you look at the gameflow by flipping a coin?
not entirely inaccurate. the coins are weighted by the probabilities on aligulac, and the computer flips them.
On July 30 2013 19:39 Fionn wrote: I picked Maru to win the series simply due to the fact that they nerfed Hellbats, pretty much making Innovation's style of TvT weaker, and that he's simply a better BoX manager than Innovation is. Maru was always one of the best Up and Down players due to his skills of being able to know what builds to use on what maps and when to cheese at the appropriate times. Innovation's BoX game planning just leaves a lot to be desired. Mechanically he is probably better than everyone currently on the planet, but he is going to need to better map out long series before he goes on a long stretch of titles.
That's cute Fionn. Trying to mask your hipster credit with actual reasoning. =p
On July 30 2013 19:15 Qikz wrote: I mean I'm not the biggest SC2 fan because mech is so bad, but how could people say that these games show why SC2 is bad? Have these people just forgot people like JulyZerg existed in BW and pretty much everyone of his wins was a super early attack?
you have no idea what are you talking about, July was the best zerg player until Savior and later Jaedong. July was really good in macro games, and do it a lot of times.
He's similar to Bomber, in a way. They both have this "Doesn't work? Well, let's try this again!" mentallity.
But July did a lot of all-ins in his games, though.
I agree that July do a lot of all-ins only because his opponents played greedy or thinking that are safe. also all-ins are rare in BW so people like to see different matches.
On July 30 2013 19:04 Caladan wrote: Game 3 was completely *NOT* Innovation's fault. You never never can scout the whole map. He DID scout for cheese. Other than that he played a normal solid build order. "Inno on tilt" etc. is really bs.
Build order wins ftl...
Yeah I don't understand why people criticize scouting so much, all the bitching amounts to "HOW COME YOU DIDNT SCOUT THE EXACT CORRECT WAY YOU NEEDED TO TO WIN!??" Because it's a game with fog of war and sooner or later you simply have to go off of your gut and hope to scout what you need to in order to win? Sometimes that doesn't work out, folks. No one's fault necessarily.
On Anaconda he couldve just scouted with the SCV after the depot and see there is nothing in marus base...
he didn't do a base scout because it's a cc first so there's no point. what you going to do after you see there's nothing in maru's base? cancel cc and build rax? doesn't matter. too late.
I dont think you have ever played terran on master level before. when you arrive with your scout after depot you have 400 minerals and can decide to not put down the cc and go double rax or rax gas instead. This was a 2 player map and really easy to scout
you clearly have not played tvt on the master level. anaconda is way bigger than bel'shir. cc first on that map is not unusual. by the time u do a full base scout of your opponent, you would have more than enough for cc + rax. also scouting = delayed cc and even more delayed rax which defeats the whole purpose of going cc first.
i am a master league terran on eu and i know scout timings with cc first very well. i went cc first in every matchup for a few weeks. i have never played on anaconda, but I dont think it takes more time to scout the other main base than on any other 2player map. go open up a custom game, scout with your scv that build the depot and you are at the opponents main at exactly 400 minerals.
I'm masters terran on na and i also know scout timings very well. but no one gives a shit because we aren't comparing mmrs here. and no i'm not going to just "open up a custom game". scout timings depend on the map. also your experiment is quite useless. you hit 400 and have your cc constructing way before when you don't 10 scout which means your barracks also comes sooner. also simply base scouting is insufficient for a map like anaconda. you have to check in base natural for potential cc first. simply put, "deciding" whether to cc first after complete scout on a map like anaconda makes no sense.
On July 30 2013 19:15 Qikz wrote: I mean I'm not the biggest SC2 fan because mech is so bad, but how could people say that these games show why SC2 is bad? Have these people just forgot people like JulyZerg existed in BW and pretty much everyone of his wins was a super early attack?
you have no idea what are you talking about, July was the best zerg player until Savior and later Jaedong. July was really good in macro games, and do it a lot of times.
He's similar to Bomber, in a way. They both have this "Doesn't work? Well, let's try this again!" mentallity.
But July did a lot of all-ins in his games, though.
I agree that July do a lot of all-ins only because his opponents played greedy or thinking that are safe. also all-ins are rare in BW so people like to see different matches.
Were all-ins really that rare in BW? I seem to remember, for instance, Kwanro all-inning every game he played. And he got sent out in proleague a lot.
On July 30 2013 19:15 Qikz wrote: I mean I'm not the biggest SC2 fan because mech is so bad, but how could people say that these games show why SC2 is bad? Have these people just forgot people like JulyZerg existed in BW and pretty much everyone of his wins was a super early attack?
you have no idea what are you talking about, July was the best zerg player until Savior and later Jaedong. July was really good in macro games, and do it a lot of times.
He's similar to Bomber, in a way. They both have this "Doesn't work? Well, let's try this again!" mentallity.
But July did a lot of all-ins in his games, though.
I agree that July do a lot of all-ins only because his opponents played greedy or thinking that are safe. also all-ins are rare in BW so people like to see different matches.
I was trying to compare Bomber and July in their playstyles, though
On July 30 2013 19:19 Brian333 wrote: The happiest player on the planet right now is probably Rain.
You don't think it's... Maru?
Rain went from needing to beat Innovation's TvP in a horribly disadvantageous match-up of styles to needing to beat Maru. I'd go so far as to say Rain can already feel the trophy against his lips.
Maru played a tremendous series but he still has to wake up to the reality that he has to play Bomber or Rain next.
On July 30 2013 19:04 Caladan wrote: Game 3 was completely *NOT* Innovation's fault. You never never can scout the whole map. He DID scout for cheese. Other than that he played a normal solid build order. "Inno on tilt" etc. is really bs.
Build order wins ftl...
Yeah I don't understand why people criticize scouting so much, all the bitching amounts to "HOW COME YOU DIDNT SCOUT THE EXACT CORRECT WAY YOU NEEDED TO TO WIN!??" Because it's a game with fog of war and sooner or later you simply have to go off of your gut and hope to scout what you need to in order to win? Sometimes that doesn't work out, folks. No one's fault necessarily.
On Anaconda he couldve just scouted with the SCV after the depot and see there is nothing in marus base...
he didn't do a base scout because it's a cc first so there's no point. what you going to do after you see there's nothing in maru's base? cancel cc and build rax? doesn't matter. too late.
I dont think you have ever played terran on master level before. when you arrive with your scout after depot you have 400 minerals and can decide to not put down the cc and go double rax or rax gas instead. This was a 2 player map and really easy to scout
you clearly have not played tvt on the master level. anaconda is way bigger than bel'shir. cc first on that map is not unusual. by the time u do a full base scout of your opponent, you would have more than enough for cc + rax. also scouting = delayed cc and even more delayed rax which defeats the whole purpose of going cc first.
i am a master league terran on eu and i know scout timings with cc first very well. i went cc first in every matchup for a few weeks. i have never played on anaconda, but I dont think it takes more time to scout the other main base than on any other 2player map. go open up a custom game, scout with your scv that build the depot and you are at the opponents main at exactly 400 minerals.
I'm masters terran on na and i also know scout timings very well. but no one gives a shit because we aren't comparing mmrs here. and no i'm not going to just "open up a custom game". scout timings depend on the map. also your experiment is quite useless. you hit 400 and have your cc constructing way before when you don't 10 scout which means your barracks also comes sooner. also simply base scouting is insufficient for a map like anaconda. you have to check in base natural for potential cc first. simply put, "deciding" whether to cc first after complete scout on a map like anaconda makes no sense.
there is no point talking to you any more. you just say "doesnt make any sense" to everything i say although you dont even try it out.
On July 30 2013 19:15 Qikz wrote: I mean I'm not the biggest SC2 fan because mech is so bad, but how could people say that these games show why SC2 is bad? Have these people just forgot people like JulyZerg existed in BW and pretty much everyone of his wins was a super early attack?
you have no idea what are you talking about, July was the best zerg player until Savior and later Jaedong. July was really good in macro games, and do it a lot of times.
He's similar to Bomber, in a way. They both have this "Doesn't work? Well, let's try this again!" mentallity.
But July did a lot of all-ins in his games, though.
I agree that July do a lot of all-ins only because his opponents played greedy or thinking that are safe. also all-ins are rare in BW so people like to see different matches.
Were all-ins really that rare in BW? I seem to remember, for instance, Kwanro all-inning every game he played. And he got sent out in proleague a lot.
A lot of people consider all-ins in BW more 'tactical' because they are harder to be successful with and since small numbers of units could be micro'd to overcome raw number disadvantages. I do agree that SC2 has more all-ins (but not by thaaaat much), but they are not in any way less tactical or strategic.
On July 30 2013 19:15 Qikz wrote: I mean I'm not the biggest SC2 fan because mech is so bad, but how could people say that these games show why SC2 is bad? Have these people just forgot people like JulyZerg existed in BW and pretty much everyone of his wins was a super early attack?
you have no idea what are you talking about, July was the best zerg player until Savior and later Jaedong. July was really good in macro games, and do it a lot of times.
He's similar to Bomber, in a way. They both have this "Doesn't work? Well, let's try this again!" mentallity.
But July did a lot of all-ins in his games, though.
I agree that July do a lot of all-ins only because his opponents played greedy or thinking that are safe. also all-ins are rare in BW so people like to see different matches.
All-ins weren't that rare, there were just a lot of really good aggressive timings that could be used in place of all-ins that only gave you a slightly better advantage IF the opponent was like "oshyt 14CC". Why would I 6pool a P when I have a 3hatch hydra that can theoretically do anything?
July also looks like he played more scrappy games because many of his games were during that transition era where Terrans were still afraid to expand before academy/tank b/c yolo 2hatch lurk - until oov came in with the 1raxCC.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mdM02RI.png)
