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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
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On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:40 edgeOut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear.
I know. Just an added tidbit because it is an interesting opinion that a bunch of pros share.
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On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
This doesn't explain why Mkp can't win GSL =)
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On July 03 2013 13:43 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:40 edgeOut wrote:On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear. I know. Just an added tidbit because it is an interesting opinion that a bunch of pros share.
So you know the point is invalid, and still feel the need to share? That's strange.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 03 2013 13:48 1raxexpand wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol This doesn't explain why Mkp can't win GSL =)
It's because MKP likes to base trade whenever possible lol it's against his nature to defend
On July 03 2013 13:49 edgeOut wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:43 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 13:40 edgeOut wrote:On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear. I know. Just an added tidbit because it is an interesting opinion that a bunch of pros share. So you know the point is invalid, and still feel the need to share? That's strange.
I don't understand why you have to pick a fight whenever BW is mentioned, as if it is a personal insult. I didn't say either is better or worse, or that one is more fun than the other, just that Innovation is enjoying more (obviously in big part of his fat paychecks).
The sentence isn't invalid; it is arguably irrelevant, but only if you think that a player's success and their enjoyment of a game are irrelevant to his opinions of said game in the above discussion.
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I'm looking forward to this :D. First time I'll have watched it. Anyone have any idea who moghavem is? Also any stream links?
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On July 03 2013 14:06 docvoc wrote:
I'm looking forward to this :D. First time I'll have watched it. Anyone have any idea who moghavem is? Also any stream links?
Ahhh you do realize this happened already right?
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On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
Is anybody arguing that mechanics and fundamentals don't make a difference in Starcraft 2...?
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On July 03 2013 10:43 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:30 painkilla wrote:On July 03 2013 07:12 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 06:11 painkilla wrote:On July 03 2013 05:14 EFermi wrote:On July 03 2013 03:02 VmY wrote:On July 03 2013 01:09 EFermi wrote:
Sos won? I really can't believe that. I thought he would fade away into obscurity after losing in the OSL. Really? He lost 2 games, happens to the best. I was thinking more about his mental state after getting embarrassed in the WCS S1 finals followed by the failure of OSL so soon after. On July 03 2013 04:06 LighT. wrote:
Who is the more accomplished Player in HoTS?
Soulkey:
- 1st WCS KR
- Semi-Finals WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 Semi-Finals, 1Ro16 (but on-going) and two colossal failures)
Innovation:
- 2nd WCS KR
- 1st WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG Qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Ro4 MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 runner up, 1 semi finalist, 1 Ro16 on-going and two colossal failures)
SoS:
- Ro4 WCS KR
- 2nd WCS Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 1st Asian Games
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 Runner up, 1 semi-finalist, 1 RO32, 0 colossal failures)
Flash:
- Ro16 WCS KR
- Did not paritcipate WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 2nd Asian Games
- 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life
- RO16 WCS KR
- Did not participate WCS KR Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG Spring 2013
- 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot.
- 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 somewhat runner up, 1 Ro16 WCS KR, 1 Ro32 WCS KR S2, 0 colossal failures)
Tough assessment to make. I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is. For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4. Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists. somebody likes cherry picking flash's losses haha. I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues. You havent discredited my response to your post. I've proven to you with a wide list of Flash's record against the top players. Outside of being 0-1 vs Rain and Something like 3-5 vs Life, he has a 50% or better against all of them and yet you think its lame to have his name in the mix? I didnt know you had to have a 1st place to be put into discussion of being a top tier player. News to me. Thinking Flash is only an amazing team league player...jesus christ dude.
Slow down. I didn't follow PL (I don't like BO1) so I only said what I saw from Flash in individual league. Lol and I never said Flash was not good in individual league. He is certainly scary and can take out anyone but remember it took him 4 or 5 seasons to even get to premier league and so certainly something is holding him back. What is lame is that some people just claim PL > WCS KR and use that to justify propelling Flash into top x, levels above the rest. If you can give a reasonable argument that Flash is top x then it is not lame.
Like I said I think if Flash can win WCS then it is awesome since it will give a lot of legitimacy to the term "RTS talent". I think I would like to see Jaedong winning even more he is such a likeable guy.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 03 2013 14:19 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 13:24 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote:
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol Is anybody arguing that mechanics and fundamentals don't make a difference in Starcraft 2...?
rift mentioned that there were fewer differentiators. I agree that there are fewer differentiators (since macro is easier and there are a lot of simplified controls), but mentioned Innovation's comment because I think that the few differentiators that are left still make a sizable gap between the best players. Basically, the skill ceiling might be lower, but it's still realistically unreachable (BW had infinity ceiling, SC2 has infinity divided by 2 skill ceiling, for example, amounting to a smaller infinity).
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On July 03 2013 14:19 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 10:43 LighT. wrote:On July 03 2013 08:30 painkilla wrote:On July 03 2013 07:12 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 06:11 painkilla wrote:On July 03 2013 05:14 EFermi wrote:On July 03 2013 03:02 VmY wrote:On July 03 2013 01:09 EFermi wrote:
Sos won? I really can't believe that. I thought he would fade away into obscurity after losing in the OSL. Really? He lost 2 games, happens to the best. I was thinking more about his mental state after getting embarrassed in the WCS S1 finals followed by the failure of OSL so soon after. On July 03 2013 04:06 LighT. wrote:
Who is the more accomplished Player in HoTS?
Soulkey:
- 1st WCS KR
- Semi-Finals WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 Semi-Finals, 1Ro16 (but on-going) and two colossal failures)
Innovation:
- 2nd WCS KR
- 1st WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG Qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Ro4 MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 runner up, 1 semi finalist, 1 Ro16 on-going and two colossal failures)
SoS:
- Ro4 WCS KR
- 2nd WCS Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 1st Asian Games
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 Runner up, 1 semi-finalist, 1 RO32, 0 colossal failures)
Flash:
- Ro16 WCS KR
- Did not paritcipate WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 2nd Asian Games
- 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life
- RO16 WCS KR
- Did not participate WCS KR Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG Spring 2013
- 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot.
- 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 somewhat runner up, 1 Ro16 WCS KR, 1 Ro32 WCS KR S2, 0 colossal failures)
Tough assessment to make. I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is. For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4. Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists. somebody likes cherry picking flash's losses haha. I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues. You havent discredited my response to your post. I've proven to you with a wide list of Flash's record against the top players. Outside of being 0-1 vs Rain and Something like 3-5 vs Life, he has a 50% or better against all of them and yet you think its lame to have his name in the mix? I didnt know you had to have a 1st place to be put into discussion of being a top tier player. News to me. Thinking Flash is only an amazing team league player...jesus christ dude. Slow down. I didn't follow PL (I don't like BO1) so I only said what I saw from Flash in individual league. Lol and I never said Flash was not good in individual league. He is certainly scary and can take out anyone but remember it took him 4 or 5 seasons to even get to premier league and so certainly something is holding him back. What is lame is that some people just claim PL > WCS KR and use that to justify propelling Flash into top x, levels above the rest. If you can give a reasonable argument that Flash is top x then it is not lame. Like I said I think if Flash can win WCS then it is awesome since it will give a lot of legitimacy to the term "RTS talent". I think I would like to see Jaedong winning even more he is such a likeable guy.
It took him 3 seasons, and the only reason he didn't on his first two tries were because of a tiebreaker rule.
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How does the prize pool for this tournament look like? I can't find it on liquidpedia.
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On July 03 2013 14:33 painkilla wrote:
How does the prize pool for this tournament look like? I can't find it on liquidpedia.
Can't find a prize pool on the website, might not even be a prize pool since the incentive is to represent your country.
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On July 03 2013 12:50 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:23 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote:
Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players. it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though. But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable? Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list. It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with.
hmm. i think using data across wcs, proleague and gstl tournament results wouldn't be unreasonable. perhaps the use of adjustment variables in the wcs rankings would make things more balanced. i don't think it's impossible at all within the parameters of a qualifier, which is what i was arguing.
the thing is, results in tournaments are really the only way to make any kind of sensible ranking. it's not unreasonable to associate results with skill as well, and people who argue with tournament results are just being silly. when flash lost to innovation and parting in the last gsl, i just accepted that those two players were better than him 'overall' in terms of the variables that were involved in the match (this includes skill in the match up, preparation for specific opponents, tvt cheese vs. tvt cheese defense in terms of inno vs flash, other factors). when life lost to sjow and tlo, i assumed the same as in the case with flash. i don't think it's sensible to argue otherwise, unless the players had a valid reason to play considerably below their capability, like sickness.
a list of 'top 10 most skilled players exclusive of tournament results' doesn't make much sense to me honestly, and i agree that a list like that which people won't argue over can't be done because it would be based on the wildly different subjective perceptions of people of skill to begin with. you'd end up with something like the osl player stats/cards which, while they are entertaining, isn't objective at all.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 03 2013 15:24 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 12:50 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 12:23 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote:
Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players. it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though. But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable? Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list. It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with. hmm. i think using data across wcs, proleague and gstl tournament results wouldn't be unreasonable. perhaps the use of adjustment variables in the wcs rankings would make things more balanced. i don't think it's impossible at all within the parameters of a qualifier, which is what i was arguing. the thing is, results in tournaments are really the only way to make any kind of sensible ranking. it's not unreasonable to associate results with skill as well, and people who argue with tournament results are just being silly. when flash lost to innovation and parting in the last gsl, i just accepted that those two players were better than him 'overall' in terms of the variables that were involved in the match (this includes skill in the match up, preparation for specific opponents, tvt cheese vs. tvt cheese defense in terms of inno vs flash, other factors). when life lost to sjow and tlo, i assumed the same as in the case with flash. i don't think it's sensible to argue otherwise, unless the players had a valid reason to play considerably below their capability, like sickness. a list of 'top 10 most skilled players exclusive of tournament results' doesn't make much sense to me honestly, and i agree that a list like that which people won't argue over can't be done because it would be based on the wildly different subjective perceptions of people of skill to begin with. you'd end up with something like the osl player stats/cards which, while they are entertaining, isn't objective at all.
I actually quite liked the cards, because they give insight on player reputations
But they gave Shine a cheese rating of like 70, which is total balls
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On July 03 2013 15:28 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 15:24 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 12:50 lichter wrote:On July 03 2013 12:23 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote:
Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players. it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though. But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable? Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list. It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with. hmm. i think using data across wcs, proleague and gstl tournament results wouldn't be unreasonable. perhaps the use of adjustment variables in the wcs rankings would make things more balanced. i don't think it's impossible at all within the parameters of a qualifier, which is what i was arguing. the thing is, results in tournaments are really the only way to make any kind of sensible ranking. it's not unreasonable to associate results with skill as well, and people who argue with tournament results are just being silly. when flash lost to innovation and parting in the last gsl, i just accepted that those two players were better than him 'overall' in terms of the variables that were involved in the match (this includes skill in the match up, preparation for specific opponents, tvt cheese vs. tvt cheese defense in terms of inno vs flash, other factors). when life lost to sjow and tlo, i assumed the same as in the case with flash. i don't think it's sensible to argue otherwise, unless the players had a valid reason to play considerably below their capability, like sickness. a list of 'top 10 most skilled players exclusive of tournament results' doesn't make much sense to me honestly, and i agree that a list like that which people won't argue over can't be done because it would be based on the wildly different subjective perceptions of people of skill to begin with. you'd end up with something like the osl player stats/cards which, while they are entertaining, isn't objective at all. I actually quite liked the cards, because they give insight on player reputations But they gave Shine a cheese rating of like 70, which is total balls
lol true. i like them too actually. seeing them and then people's reactions to them is amusing.
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EPT
