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On July 03 2013 08:04 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:01 StarStruck wrote:On July 03 2013 08:00 Shellshock1122 wrote:On July 03 2013 07:59 StarStruck wrote:On July 03 2013 06:34 Abominous wrote:On July 03 2013 06:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
wut, Flash didn't win?
Still no championship for him in sc2 This is as much of a championship as a weekly Korean tournament :D I would almost say the same thing for MLG. At least if you win Gold you get exemption from the military, no? you don't. Flash said in a recent interview that he still has to go to the military and he won the last one in BW. boo. :/ As for this: On July 03 2013 04:06 LighT. wrote:
Who is the more accomplished Player in HoTS?
Soulkey:
- 1st WCS KR
- Semi-Finals WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 Semi-Finals, 1Ro16 (but on-going) and two colossal failures)
Innovation:
- 2nd WCS KR
- 1st WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG Qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Ro4 MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 runner up, 1 semi finalist, 1 Ro16 on-going and two colossal failures)
SoS:
- Ro4 WCS KR
- 2nd WCS Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 1st Asian Games
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 Runner up, 1 semi-finalist, 1 RO32, 0 colossal failures)
Flash:
- Ro16 WCS KR
- Did not paritcipate WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 2nd Asian Games
- 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life
- RO16 WCS KR
- Did not participate WCS KR Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG Spring 2013
- 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot.
- 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 somewhat runner up, 1 Ro16 WCS KR, 1 Ro32 WCS KR S2, 0 colossal failures)
Tough assessment to make. I'd say the jury is still out on this one. ~_~ How is Flash even among the champions lol? 1st places make you successful. Flash has none.
Yellow, Sea, Midas confirmed for unsuccessful tier.
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Agreed on the last post, Flash is definitly very good right now, but at no time since his switch to sc2 i would have rated him at top 5 in the world.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I like how people have actually taken this thread seriously
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On July 03 2013 06:11 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 05:14 EFermi wrote:On July 03 2013 03:02 VmY wrote:On July 03 2013 01:09 EFermi wrote:
Sos won? I really can't believe that. I thought he would fade away into obscurity after losing in the OSL. Really? He lost 2 games, happens to the best. I was thinking more about his mental state after getting embarrassed in the WCS S1 finals followed by the failure of OSL so soon after. On July 03 2013 04:06 LighT. wrote:
Who is the more accomplished Player in HoTS?
Soulkey:
- 1st WCS KR
- Semi-Finals WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 Semi-Finals, 1Ro16 (but on-going) and two colossal failures)
Innovation:
- 2nd WCS KR
- 1st WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG Qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Ro4 MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 runner up, 1 semi finalist, 1 Ro16 on-going and two colossal failures)
SoS:
- Ro4 WCS KR
- 2nd WCS Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 1st Asian Games
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 Runner up, 1 semi-finalist, 1 RO32, 0 colossal failures)
Flash:
- Ro16 WCS KR
- Did not paritcipate WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 2nd Asian Games
- 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life
- RO16 WCS KR
- Did not participate WCS KR Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG Spring 2013
- 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot.
- 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 somewhat runner up, 1 Ro16 WCS KR, 1 Ro32 WCS KR S2, 0 colossal failures)
Tough assessment to make. I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is. For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4. Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't even the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
If by "kept losing" you mean beating Parting at MLG and then losing in the GSL and losing to life at MLG when he'd practiced HotS for two days, then sure.
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On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote:
Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe.
Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd.
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On July 03 2013 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote:
Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe. Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd.
PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that.
PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa.
WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf.
MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf.
So PL < WCS KR.
The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR.
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On July 03 2013 08:47 cythaze wrote:
Agreed on the last post, Flash is definitly very good right now, but at no time since his switch to sc2 i would have rated him at top 5 in the world.
I wouldn`t rated him 4 or 5 for a while now. He`s got skills.
Anyway congradz sOs on your win! Unfortunate it was pretty under the radar though
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On July 03 2013 09:38 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote:
Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe. Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd. PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that. PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa. WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf. MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf. So PL < WCS KR. The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR.
Obviously the best ESF players are better than the average Kespa players. No good ESF players participated in MLG though, so that's not really a good example.
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On July 03 2013 09:38 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote:
Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe. Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd. PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that. PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa. WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf. MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf. So PL < WCS KR. The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR.
You also got to note that their were only 3 of them, and when they did lose it was considered an upset. Odds were pretty against them..
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Don't worry guys, soO Dear and Stats have been thrown into Kespa jail for their crimes against Kespa
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On July 03 2013 08:45 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 08:04 sharkie wrote:On July 03 2013 08:01 StarStruck wrote:On July 03 2013 08:00 Shellshock1122 wrote:On July 03 2013 07:59 StarStruck wrote:On July 03 2013 06:34 Abominous wrote:On July 03 2013 06:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
wut, Flash didn't win?
Still no championship for him in sc2 This is as much of a championship as a weekly Korean tournament :D I would almost say the same thing for MLG. At least if you win Gold you get exemption from the military, no? you don't. Flash said in a recent interview that he still has to go to the military and he won the last one in BW. boo. :/ As for this: On July 03 2013 04:06 LighT. wrote:
Who is the more accomplished Player in HoTS?
Soulkey:
- 1st WCS KR
- Semi-Finals WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 Semi-Finals, 1Ro16 (but on-going) and two colossal failures)
Innovation:
- 2nd WCS KR
- 1st WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG Qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Ro4 MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 runner up, 1 semi finalist, 1 Ro16 on-going and two colossal failures)
SoS:
- Ro4 WCS KR
- 2nd WCS Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 1st Asian Games
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 Runner up, 1 semi-finalist, 1 RO32, 0 colossal failures)
Flash:
- Ro16 WCS KR
- Did not paritcipate WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 2nd Asian Games
- 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life
- RO16 WCS KR
- Did not participate WCS KR Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG Spring 2013
- 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot.
- 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 somewhat runner up, 1 Ro16 WCS KR, 1 Ro32 WCS KR S2, 0 colossal failures)
Tough assessment to make. I'd say the jury is still out on this one. ~_~ How is Flash even among the champions lol? 1st places make you successful. Flash has none. Yellow, Sea, Midas confirmed for unsuccessful tier.
I doubt Sea and Midas would call their careers successful...
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On July 03 2013 08:30 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 07:12 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 06:11 painkilla wrote:On July 03 2013 05:14 EFermi wrote:On July 03 2013 03:02 VmY wrote:On July 03 2013 01:09 EFermi wrote:
Sos won? I really can't believe that. I thought he would fade away into obscurity after losing in the OSL. Really? He lost 2 games, happens to the best. I was thinking more about his mental state after getting embarrassed in the WCS S1 finals followed by the failure of OSL so soon after. On July 03 2013 04:06 LighT. wrote:
Who is the more accomplished Player in HoTS?
Soulkey:
- 1st WCS KR
- Semi-Finals WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 Semi-Finals, 1Ro16 (but on-going) and two colossal failures)
Innovation:
- 2nd WCS KR
- 1st WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG Qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Ro4 MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 runner up, 1 semi finalist, 1 Ro16 on-going and two colossal failures)
SoS:
- Ro4 WCS KR
- 2nd WCS Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 1st Asian Games
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 Runner up, 1 semi-finalist, 1 RO32, 0 colossal failures)
Flash:
- Ro16 WCS KR
- Did not paritcipate WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 2nd Asian Games
- 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life
- RO16 WCS KR
- Did not participate WCS KR Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG Spring 2013
- 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot.
- 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 somewhat runner up, 1 Ro16 WCS KR, 1 Ro32 WCS KR S2, 0 colossal failures)
Tough assessment to make. I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is. For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4. Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists. somebody likes cherry picking flash's losses haha. I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues.
You havent discredited my response to your post.
I've proven to you with a wide list of Flash's record against the top players. Outside of being 0-1 vs Rain and Something like 3-5 vs Life, he has a 50% or better against all of them and yet you think its lame to have his name in the mix?
I didnt know you had to have a 1st place to be put into discussion of being a top tier player. News to me. Thinking Flash is only an amazing team league player...jesus christ dude.
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On July 03 2013 09:51 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 09:38 painkilla wrote:On July 03 2013 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote:
Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe. Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd. PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that. PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa. WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf. MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf. So PL < WCS KR. The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR. Obviously the best ESF players are better than the average Kespa players. No good ESF players participated in MLG though, so that's not really a good example.
This is true, none did but I do agree that the top tier GSTL players are likely better than the mid tier SPL players
No one's arguing PL is equal to WCS KR but that doesnt mean the results portrayed in SPL should be discredited at all
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
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On July 03 2013 08:30 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 07:12 theMagus wrote:On July 03 2013 06:11 painkilla wrote:On July 03 2013 05:14 EFermi wrote:On July 03 2013 03:02 VmY wrote:On July 03 2013 01:09 EFermi wrote:
Sos won? I really can't believe that. I thought he would fade away into obscurity after losing in the OSL. Really? He lost 2 games, happens to the best. I was thinking more about his mental state after getting embarrassed in the WCS S1 finals followed by the failure of OSL so soon after. On July 03 2013 04:06 LighT. wrote:
Who is the more accomplished Player in HoTS?
Soulkey:
- 1st WCS KR
- Semi-Finals WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 Semi-Finals, 1Ro16 (but on-going) and two colossal failures)
Innovation:
- 2nd WCS KR
- 1st WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Dropped from MLG Qualifiers
- Dropped from Asian Game qualifiers
- Ro4 MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 runner up, 1 semi finalist, 1 Ro16 on-going and two colossal failures)
SoS:
- Ro4 WCS KR
- 2nd WCS Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 1st Asian Games
- Did not participate MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st place, 1 Runner up, 1 semi-finalist, 1 RO32, 0 colossal failures)
Flash:
- Ro16 WCS KR
- Did not paritcipate WCS Finals
- Ro16 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG qualifiers
- 2nd Asian Games
- 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life
- RO16 WCS KR
- Did not participate WCS KR Finals
- Ro32 WCS KR S2
- Did not participate MLG Spring 2013
- 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot.
- 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
(1 1st Place, 1 somewhat runner up, 1 Ro16 WCS KR, 1 Ro32 WCS KR S2, 0 colossal failures)
Tough assessment to make. I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is. For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4. Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists. somebody likes cherry picking flash's losses haha. I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues.
i very much disagree with you but whatever man. you talk about results but you like cherry picking data. naturally, you'll come to that conclusion lol. anyway, we'll see soon enough if flash is worthy of that categorization or not 
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On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote:
Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though.
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Seems like Sen is having almost as much trouble with ZvP as Jaedong. 
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Anyone else watching the OGN stream right now? Second game on.
ok i'm gonna be honest, he's winning this game on the back of hellbats
k now transitioned into long macro game, bio ghost vs storm/colo
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 03 2013 12:23 theMagus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote:
Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players. it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though.
But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable?
Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list.
It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with.
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frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
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EPT
