OP's Note: There is not a lot of information about this tournament, but I will try to update it with whatever I can find. If anyone has better resources or information, please fill me in.
Group A Shaki, Shahriar - AiDeMiGoDMSI [Iran] Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Hu Xiang - Invictus Gaming MacSed [China]
Group B Chen Ko Wei - Wayi Spiders Fly [Taiwan] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] Enkhtur, Tsogt [Mongolia] Moghavem, Mohammad Ali [Iran]
Each Group Will Be Played In a Best Of One Round Robin Format. The Top 2 Players from each group will advance to the Semi Finals and battle in a Best of 3. Probably. The Finals will be a best of I don't know. Maybe 3 maybe 5.
Apparently Flash Fly and LoveCD played a tiebreaker that wasn't reported on the site. No idea why they paired the semis like this though. + Show Spoiler [Semi Final 1 15:00] +
Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan]
Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea]
Group A Shaki, Shahriar - AiDeMiGoDMSI [Iran] [1 - 2] Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] [2 - 1] Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] [3 - 0] Hu Xiang - Invictus Gaming MacSed [China] [0 - 3]
Sen advances in first place! sOs also qualifies as second!
Group B Chen Ko Wei - Wayi Spiders Fly [Taiwan] [3 - 1] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] [3 - 1] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] [3 - 1] Enkhtur, Tsogt [Mongolia] [1 - 3] Moghavem, Mohammad Ali [Iran] [0 - 4]
Flash and LoveCD advance for some unknown reason! They go into the semi finals or something.
Group A Shaki, Shahriar - AiDeMiGoDMSI [Iran] <> Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] <> Hu Xiang - Invictus Gaming MacSed [China] Shaki, Shahriar - AiDeMiGoDMSI [Iran] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] <> Hu Xiang - Invictus Gaming MacSed [China] Hu Xiang - Invictus Gaming MacSed [China] <> Shaki, Shahriar - AiDeMiGoDMSI [Iran] Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan]
Sen advances in first place! sOs also qualifies as second!
Group B Moghavem, Mohammad Ali [Iran] DNS <> Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] Chen Ko Wei - Wayi Spiders Fly [Taiwan] <> Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] Enkhtur, Tsogt [Mongolia] <> Moghavem, Mohammad Ali [Iran] DNS Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] Chen Ko Wei - Wayi Spiders Fly [Taiwan] <> Enkhtur, Tsogt [Mongolia] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Moghavem, Mohammad Ali [Iran] DNS
[June 30]
Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Chen Ko Wei - Wayi Spiders Fly [Taiwan] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Enkhtur, Tsogt [Mongolia] Moghavem, Mohammad Ali [Iran] <> Chen Ko Wei - Wayi Spiders Fly [Taiwan] Enkhtur, Tsogt [Mongolia] <> Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea]
Flash and LoveCD advance after an unrecorded tiebreaker!
I don't know why they paired the players this way for the semis..
Semi Finals 1 Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China]
Semi Finals 2 Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan]
Third Place Match Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan] Li Junfeng - WE LoveCD [China] <> Yang Chia Cheng - Gamania Sen [Taiwan]
Finals Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea] Lee Young Ho - KT Rolster Flash [South Korea] <> Kim Yujin - Woongjin Stars sOs [South Korea]
On July 02 2013 11:52 Caihead wrote: Short interview transcript thingy from Flash
Flash defeated LoveCD 2-0 in the AIMAG SC2 semi-finals.
Flash's performance changed drastically in one hour like he was a completely different person (referring to from his performance in group stage to the semi finals). As to his secret, he answered "Using strategic openers". Flash had met LoveCD multiple times on the ladder before, combined with the fact that they fought in the group stage, allowed Flash to understand how his opponent likes to open his macro, so he was able to respond and win easily.
"The opponent was very good, it made me very stressed. In the beginning when I met him on the ladder I was thinking, (he) plays so well, could it be Rain? I even specifically went to check his ID, and found out that it was Chinese player LoveCD. He had so much ability so I didn't under-estimate him, in the end I won with full preparation."
Flash also said that he hopes sOs could win the other semifinals. If the finals is between Korean players there wouldn't be pressure to capture the gold, and Flash had focused on his TvP for a while and has improved his ability so he's very confident.
"Ofcourse if foreigner player advance it would be more relaxed / easy for me. But if sOs advances there are more advantages. Especially since me and sOs finally have a day to rest, we want to play well, if we both advance into the finals, then we can have alot of fun (laugh)."
Flash has already captured medals twice in the AIMAG but his ambition isn't stopping there. More so than medals he wants to capture the gold consecutively, so he also said that he has to win in the finals.
"Since fans are anticipating it, I will definitely bring them good news. Please continue to support me / watch me!"
On June 28 2013 17:09 Fortidei wrote: Does anyone know why is Flash competing instead of Life ? I remember Life 2-1 Flash in the qualifiers...
I was pretty sure Life decided to go to MLG instead and gave up his spot, but he isn't going to MLG it seems so I don't know. I just know that they had a video at proleague where they discussed Life's decision to go to MLG instead of representing Korea here, I think he got a lot of flak for it from the korean fans.
The schedule doesn't say if there is a stream though =/ Or where to find it if there is going to be one
Well they streamed the qualifier, so they should stream it I guess, not on english but still.
I am raking through some Taiwanese sites (I can read a bit of traditional Chinese) and no one is showing any stream links so far. No information on whether it will be shown either. Just a lot of news about the teams arriving, schedules, and location for the games.
If anyone is interested in helping me you can try searching for
星海爭霸 2 = Starcraft 2 亞洲室內暨武藝運動會 = Asian Indoor & Martial Arts Games
On June 28 2013 21:11 tili wrote: Can someone explain the two Iranian players? Is this real? Does Iran even have a scene?
Nobody knows how they qualified. I can't find any information on who they beat or how it was determined that these countries would participate in the event instead of other countries. I suppose I could try google translating some Iranian websites, but uhhhh I'm not that obsessed with Starcraft T_T
On June 28 2013 22:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I live next to this arena. Maybe ill go. I was hoping the muay thai would be there too but its only rsports and dancing the rest is elsewhere
It's actually just one train ride to the gymnasium for Muay Thai. I assume you mean you are near Samsan Gym. Here's a google map directions thingy for you
Where's the love for Tsogt Enkhtur? I mean, Iran is one thing, obviously it's not an eSports hotbed but there have been Middle Eastern tournaments and stuff. But Mongolia, seriously? Too bad no one can find a stream, though...
On June 28 2013 23:40 bduddy wrote: Where's the love for Tsogt Enkhtur? I mean, Iran is one thing, obviously it's not an eSports hotbed but there have been Middle Eastern tournaments and stuff. But Mongolia, seriously? Too bad no one can find a stream, though...
I'll try my best to find one closer to the start of the games
If anyone knows how to write down starcraft 2 and the Korean name for these games, I can try using that to look for stream links tomorrow.
On June 29 2013 01:40 Wintex wrote: Pity life won't be at either event.... I think he thought that MLG would give him an invite and then he got fucked over by the late announcement....
On June 29 2013 02:03 slowbacontron wrote: Hmm, we should send sOs and Flash through an age warp and make their baby selves play. Then this event would be a little closer in skill gap.
Yeah, sorry for destroying the first two pages of the LR with pictures lol. I need to control myself more. That's why they gave me TL+ forums.
On June 29 2013 01:40 Wintex wrote: Pity life won't be at either event.... I think he thought that MLG would give him an invite and then he got fucked over by the late announcement....
Hm, what late announcement? o-O
Yeah can we get clarification on this? I thought Life was going to MLG?
This is an indoors sportings event that just happened to put eSports in, rather than a dedicated eSports tournament. Look at the list of sponsors - lots of big Korean corporations / organizations, but they're not there because of eSports.
On June 29 2013 03:15 Fischbacher wrote: ...and its still unclear if wining this gets you a military service exemption or not.
..When was this ever discussed? Didn't Flash win this tournament the last time it held?
Someone said it did and then it got blown up as tons of people kept repeating it before it was ever confirmed.
Current conscription laws stipulate that athletes who win medals in the Olympic Games or gold medals in the Asian Games are granted exemptions but still required to do four weeks of basic training.[1] In 2011, the Military Manpower Administration proposed amendments to the exemptions: to include men who have not completed middle school, and to change to a points-based system on a prescribed scale for athletes who win in prestigious competitions. This is partly to address criticism for the easy exemptions and to recognise the privilege to those who show steady performance.[6]
I think this was the confusing part. These are the Asian Indoor Games which are separate from the Asian Games I'm pretty sure so I don't think this grants military exemption, especially if Flash still said he was going to have to do military service in his recent Lo3 interview.
On June 29 2013 08:39 slowbacontron wrote: Well, is it possible Sen could take two Bo3 off of Flash and/or sOs, first in the semis and then in the finals? I do in fact think it's POSSIBLE...
of course it's possible, but don't you want $1 million???
On June 29 2013 08:39 slowbacontron wrote: Well, is it possible Sen could take two Bo3 off of Flash and/or sOs, first in the semis and then in the finals? I do in fact think it's POSSIBLE...
of course it's possible, but don't you want $1 million???
Sen has a 17.5% chance to defeat both Flash and sOs, assuming the format of this tournament doesn't change and matches are Bo3 all the way to the finals! I shall not give in!
On June 29 2013 13:40 slowbacontron wrote: Do we have any info on the Iran/Mongolia players' races? I'm trying to update Liquipedia but don't actually know this.
DeMiGoD is terran. I'll update that I guess
Mohammad Ali and Enkhtur, I don't know. No info on the Korean and Taiwanese websites either.
Just heard from a reliable source, MacSed was not able to sleep for his 2 nights in Korea because of his "accommodation issues" with 2 other people. That explains his poor performance in this tournament. I feel really sad about this
On June 29 2013 13:48 Alopex wrote: Just heard from a reliable source, MacSed was not able to sleep for his 2 nights in Korea because of his "accommodation issues" with 2 other people. That explains his poor performance in this tournament. I feel really sad about this
Accommodation Issues? Sounds like a crummy situation. Considering how obscure this tournament seems to be I doubt they got very good accommodations.
On June 29 2013 13:40 slowbacontron wrote: Do we have any info on the Iran/Mongolia players' races? I'm trying to update Liquipedia but don't actually know this.
DeMiGoD is terran. I'll update that I guess
Mohammad Ali and Enkhtur, I don't know. No info on the Korean and Taiwanese websites either.
Demigod was already listed as T when I got there, someone was pretty savvy. I think I've done what's possible so far, except listing Sen and sOs in the playoffs.
wow fuck this, the only reason I was watching this tournament was for Mohammad Ali and now you're telling me he didn't show up? I understand that he's the greatest player of all time and you have to pay him a huge appearance fee but I'm really disappointed in the organizers of the Asian Indoor & Martial Arts Games 2013 for failing to provide what the viewers want.
I'll be taking my business elsewhere. If I can't watch the greatest player of all time Mohammad Ali I suppose I'll tune into MLG so I can see the second greatest player of all time, Coach Park.
On June 29 2013 18:55 theMagus wrote: get dat money flash!
It's unknown what the prize is, if there is any
i meant the olympic points(?) he gets if he wins. he will essentially double his sort of 60-year pension from the government if he wins a 2nd time, on top of his military exemption. this was all in one of the threads before.
On June 29 2013 18:55 theMagus wrote: get dat money flash!
It's unknown what the prize is, if there is any
i meant the olympic points(?) he gets if he wins. he will essentially double his sort of 60-year pension from the government if he wins a 2nd time, on top of his military exemption. this was all in one of the threads before.
Pretty sure the military exemption was just a rumor?
On June 29 2013 18:55 theMagus wrote: get dat money flash!
It's unknown what the prize is, if there is any
i meant the olympic points(?) he gets if he wins. he will essentially double his sort of 60-year pension from the government if he wins a 2nd time, on top of his military exemption. this was all in one of the threads before.
Pretty sure the military exemption was just a rumor?
i'm not really sure but i believe it was a korean who said those things in that thread. i guess we'll see eventually
On June 29 2013 19:20 ZAiNs wrote: From the way Flash answered his military service question in LO3 I assume you aren't exempt from service for winning this.
he said he was still going? i guess that puts that issue to rest lol.
edit: gonna watch that video right now. forgot all about it somehow.
On June 29 2013 19:20 ZAiNs wrote: From the way Flash answered his military service question in LO3 I assume you aren't exempt from service for winning this.
he said he was still going? i guess that puts that issue to rest lol.
edit: gonna watch that video right now. forgot all about it somehow.
On June 29 2013 18:55 theMagus wrote: get dat money flash!
It's unknown what the prize is, if there is any
i meant the olympic points(?) he gets if he wins. he will essentially double his sort of 60-year pension from the government if he wins a 2nd time, on top of his military exemption. this was all in one of the threads before.
Pretty sure the military exemption was just a rumor?
AFAIK only Olympic medalists get military exemptions. Esports is still not as big as traditional sports to warrant the same treatment by the government.
purakushi: The general consensus we have come to without any solid sources is that this event does not grant military exemption, the reasoning being that Flash has already won the last one in 2009 but mentioned in a recent interview (Live on Three) that he plans to go to military in about 5 years.
I can only assume Ali didn't show up because once everyone else saw he was in this, he assumed that everyone wouldn't bother showing up. And TBH, who could blame him?
On June 30 2013 13:25 Shellshock1122 wrote: oh I didn't think about that. Wasnt there rumors/known that it happened in WCG in BW? I remember hearing about that once
It's true. Stork ran a tiebreaker like 5 times until he got into the side of the bracket he wanted.
They switch semifinal to random draw instead of A1 to B2 to guarantee the korean wining. So whats the point for first and second in group state? What a shame! And SO little confident in Flash the god!
Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
On June 30 2013 13:49 bduddy wrote: In fact, I declare that all future SC2 tournaments should not be decided by who wins the most games, but by who gets the highest score.
They actually did that for a few WC3 tournaments before, no joke. Tiebreakers at least.
They already posted the bracket. Flash plays LoveCD and sOs plays Sen (WTF? Playing again in the same groups? Do these people understand how a tournament works?) As for Fly, well, too bad for him I guess.
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
On June 30 2013 13:52 bduddy wrote: They already posted the bracket. Flash plays LoveCD and sOs plays Sen (WTF? Playing again in the same groups? Do these people understand how a tournament works?) As for Fly, well, too bad for him I guess.
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
Are you serious!? ROFL That is awesome rofl
Nah nobody knows anything about this tournament -_-''
I just thought this was funny, courtesy of Google Translate:
China Team eSports players Ka-ching (Sen), today in Incheon, South Korea held in 2013 Asian Indoor cum martial arts games in eSports game "StarCraft II" preliminaries, defeated China, Iran, South Korea's, Top 4 advance.
Taiwan e-Sports Association Secretary-General Wang Zang Ying tells WebMD, Sen at 10:00 on the Chinese mainland team MacSed, maps as "Ya Qilong desert", MacSed in out three mine was unexpectedly take immediate offensive, just caught Sen in subsidize agriculture point in time, breath knocked Sen is building four mines, but Sen quickly fill out the Zergling, after the insects thrilling hold MacSed of this wave of attacks, due MacSed sentinels and immortal fully wiped out, so that Sen made a little advantage.
Both begin and Technology climb, and both make up 200 troops ready for battle. More rigid extrusion parasitic Wang insects for defense. Although the terrain on Sen did not detrimental, but MacSed relying on excellent handling, even the battle damage than the minimum, annihilated Sen's troops. Sen in MacSed persecute their own two mines, the thrilling fill out a few pieces of parasitic Wang insects barely hold, but MacSed at this time out of the four mines, the economy is not only intact, but also constantly trying to take advantage of multi-line Berserker to combat Sen base.
Sen in the whole game has been forced to defend, but Sen still and MacSed the same out of Minmetals, the two sides deadlocked, but Sen relying on two parasitic Wang insects divide our forces interfering MaScd base, not only forcing MacSed divide our forces for defense, but also for this game play breakthrough point, Sen finally in the Battle to parasitic king worms, Brontotherium, after insects plus Zergling combination of gold annihilate MacSed full strength, thrilling win this last more than 40 minutes of the tournament.
Sen in the morning and the second field on the Iranian players SHAKI SHAHRIAR, maps as "whirlwind", Sen easily won a second victory, even last in the "Nova S" on the Korean team sOs time, Sen to Zergling, cockroaches success holding sOs two ore wave of offensive, smooth real estate out of a large number of Brontotherium, beautifully beat sOs, in the preliminaries with three straight victories in the first one of the position, the successful march acquired four finals.
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
Are you serious!? ROFL That is awesome rofl
Wow, that's only marginally better than a coin-toss.
Unspent minerals could have even been better, since that might at least indicate superior macro. >.>
On June 30 2013 14:02 lichter wrote: I'm not seeing the semi final matches yet?
Start list is still blank for me
Yes, it has not been updated yet. But the matches are in the bracket at the link provided by bduddy, and it's official.
And nobody knows exactly how the tiebreakers were decided. But all I can say is poor Fly. I strongly suspect they really used map score.
But every match was Bo1, so everyone had the same map score... That's why I was saying, the only possible tiebreaker was "random" draw, or something weird...
On June 30 2013 14:02 lichter wrote: I'm not seeing the semi final matches yet?
Start list is still blank for me
Yes, it has not been updated yet. But the matches are in the bracket at the link provided by bduddy, and it's official.
And nobody knows exactly how the tiebreakers were decided. But all I can say is poor Fly. I strongly suspect they really used map score.
But every match was Bo1, so everyone had the same map score... That's why I was saying, the only possible tiebreaker was "random" draw, or something weird...
I meant in-game score. Crappy WC3 tournaments have done it before.
Edit: In traditional sports people settle things this way, as game score is a good indicator of how wide a margin someone won by. Obviously this does not work in esports, but the judges probably don't know better. Anyway, it's all just speculation still.
China Team eSports players Ka-ching (Sen), today in Incheon, South Korea held in 2013 Asian Indoor cum martial arts games in eSports game "StarCraft II" preliminaries, defeated China, Iran, South Korea's, Top 4 advance.
Taiwan e-Sports Association Secretary-General Wang Zang Ying tells WebMD, Sen at 10:00 on the Chinese mainland team MacSed, maps as "Ya Qilong desert", MacSed in out three mine was unexpectedly take immediate offensive, just caught Sen in subsidize agriculture point in time, breath knocked Sen is building four mines, but Sen quickly fill out the Zergling, after the insects thrilling hold MacSed of this wave of attacks, due MacSed sentinels and immortal fully wiped out, so that Sen made a little advantage.
Both begin and Technology climb, and both make up 200 troops ready for battle. More rigid extrusion parasitic Wang insects for defense. Although the terrain on Sen did not detrimental, but MacSed relying on excellent handling, even the battle damage than the minimum, annihilated Sen's troops. Sen in MacSed persecute their own two mines, the thrilling fill out a few pieces of parasitic Wang insects barely hold, but MacSed at this time out of the four mines, the economy is not only intact, but also constantly trying to take advantage of multi-line Berserker to combat Sen base.
Sen in the whole game has been forced to defend, but Sen still and MacSed the same out of Minmetals, the two sides deadlocked, but Sen relying on two parasitic Wang insects divide our forces interfering MaScd base, not only forcing MacSed divide our forces for defense, but also for this game play breakthrough point, Sen finally in the Battle to parasitic king worms, Brontotherium, after insects plus Zergling combination of gold annihilate MacSed full strength, thrilling win this last more than 40 minutes of the tournament.
Sen in the morning and the second field on the Iranian players SHAKI SHAHRIAR, maps as "whirlwind", Sen easily won a second victory, even last in the "Nova S" on the Korean team sOs time, Sen to Zergling, cockroaches success holding sOs two ore wave of offensive, smooth real estate out of a large number of Brontotherium, beautifully beat sOs, in the preliminaries with three straight victories in the first one of the position, the successful march acquired four finals.
On June 30 2013 14:02 lichter wrote: I'm not seeing the semi final matches yet?
Start list is still blank for me
Yes, it has not been updated yet. But the matches are in the bracket at the link provided by bduddy, and it's official.
And nobody knows exactly how the tiebreakers were decided. But all I can say is poor Fly. I strongly suspect they really used map score.
But every match was Bo1, so everyone had the same map score... That's why I was saying, the only possible tiebreaker was "random" draw, or something weird...
I meant in-game score. Crappy WC3 tournaments have done it before.
Edit: In traditional sports people settle things this way, as game score is a good indicator of how wide a margin someone won by. Obviously this does not work in esports, but the judges probably don't know better. Anyway, it's all just speculation still.
The judge dude is an official Kespa ref, so he's probably in reality doing something reasonable
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
On June 30 2013 13:45 bduddy wrote: Considering the matches were Bo1 and the tied players all lost to each other, there's no possible tiebreaker except more matches or random draw (unless they do something really weird, like game time or score or something)
Tiebreaker determined by Supply at gg! Best tiebreaker ever
This is incredible.
That was a joke. Also, presumably, a joke: whatever the tournament actually did.
On June 30 2013 15:14 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: How do they expect us international fans to be interested in Chinese players if they won't stream such an awesome tournament with Chinese players?
The chinese have always been a very closed community even tracing back to their bw days. Pj came out of nowhere. I'm pretty sure there's a chinese stream somewhere out there that's being broadcasted that we arent able to get our hands on
On June 30 2013 15:14 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: How do they expect us international fans to be interested in Chinese players if they won't stream such an awesome tournament with Chinese players?
The chinese have always been a very closed community even tracing back to their bw days. Pj came out of nowhere. I'm pretty sure there's a chinese stream somewhere out there that's being broadcasted that we arent able to get our hands on
No Chinese stream either, if there was I definitely will post here.
On June 30 2013 15:14 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: How do they expect us international fans to be interested in Chinese players if they won't stream such an awesome tournament with Chinese players?
The chinese have always been a very closed community even tracing back to their bw days. Pj came out of nowhere. I'm pretty sure there's a chinese stream somewhere out there that's being broadcasted that we arent able to get our hands on
No Chinese stream either, if there was I definitely will post here.
Yeah I tried to find a Taiwanese stream since there were a few .tw articles I found about AIMAG, but couldn't find anything either. Such a weird tournament lol
it says the love CD advanced to the semifinals for an "unknown reason" but isn't it because he only lost one game (same as fly) but LoveCD won Head to head, so he advanced.
On June 30 2013 18:20 partydude89 wrote: it says the love CD advanced to the semifinals for an "unknown reason" but isn't it because he only lost one game (same as fly) but LoveCD won Head to head, so he advanced.
Fly > Flash Flash > LoveCD LoveCD > Fly
Three way tie no matter how you slice it
South Korea vs South Korea as expected, but I don't like how they did the tournament. The semi finals are also rather dumb since there was no cross over.
On June 30 2013 19:35 GolemMadness wrote: The finals are two days after the semis? And the same day Flash has to play Innovation in the OSL? The fuck?
i don't think it's live?
According to the AIMAG website, the schedule for the first place SC2 match is 19:00 on July 2. Huh. Flash plays OSL on July 2, and his games will probably start around the same time. I don't know how they are going to fix this.
On June 30 2013 19:35 GolemMadness wrote: The finals are two days after the semis? And the same day Flash has to play Innovation in the OSL? The fuck?
i don't think it's live?
According to the AIMAG website, the schedule for the first place SC2 match is 19:00 on July 2. Huh.
well that's a bit awks since flash is playing bogus that day at the same time
According to Liquipedia, Bomber vs Bbyong is playing instead of Flash-Innovatiion.
lame, that wasn't on the schedule on stream haha. gotta edit OP and calendar now
You know, at this point in time I still don't get what the proper schedule for groups B and D is meant to be.
- Original broadcast and GOM brackets page show Flash v Innovation, SuperNova v KangHo. - DES shows Bomber v Bbyong, Maru v Trap. - GOM schedule page shows Bomber v Bbyong, SuperNova v KangHo.
All we need now is for the actual broadcast to be Flash v Innovation, Maru v Trap
On June 30 2013 19:35 GolemMadness wrote: The finals are two days after the semis? And the same day Flash has to play Innovation in the OSL? The fuck?
i don't think it's live?
According to the AIMAG website, the schedule for the first place SC2 match is 19:00 on July 2. Huh.
well that's a bit awks since flash is playing bogus that day at the same time
According to Liquipedia, Bomber vs Bbyong is playing instead of Flash-Innovatiion.
lame, that wasn't on the schedule on stream haha. gotta edit OP and calendar now
You know, at this point in time I still don't get what the proper schedule for groups B and D is meant to be.
- Original broadcast and GOM brackets page show Flash v Innovation, SuperNova v KangHo. - DES shows Bomber v Bbyong, Maru v Trap. - GOM schedule page shows Bomber v Bbyong, SuperNova v KangHo.
All we need now is for the actual broadcast to be Flash v Innovation, Maru v Trap
On June 30 2013 22:26 SniXSniPe wrote: So nobody knows why Flash>LoveCD>Fly>Flash (all with 3-1 records) has Flash and LoveCD advancing...
:|
My report says there was a tiebreaker but it's not recorded on the site for unknown reason. Fly lost to both Flash and LoveCD so the later two advance.
On June 30 2013 22:26 SniXSniPe wrote: So nobody knows why Flash>LoveCD>Fly>Flash (all with 3-1 records) has Flash and LoveCD advancing...
:|
My report says there was a tiebreaker but it's not recorded on the site for unknown reason. Fly lost to both Flash and LoveCD so the later two advance.
I heard that the tie breaker was actually sorted by who had the most supply at the time of gg.
On June 30 2013 22:26 SniXSniPe wrote: So nobody knows why Flash>LoveCD>Fly>Flash (all with 3-1 records) has Flash and LoveCD advancing...
:|
My report says there was a tiebreaker but it's not recorded on the site for unknown reason. Fly lost to both Flash and LoveCD so the later two advance.
I heard that the tie breaker was actually sorted by who had the most supply at the time of gg.
No, they played Tiebreaker and Fly lost both games to LoveCD and Flash. Taiwanese site did a very brief battle report.
Fly vs LoveCD (Tiebreaker) LoveCD started the game with a Nexus first followed by a warp-prism sentry play to seal and kill Fly's main. However, LoveCD's force fields were not optimal, and Fly deflected the attack. LoveCD followed up with immortal all-in after tricking Fly by canceling the 3rd Nexus. Fly was not prepared for the all-in and lost the game.
Fly vs Flash (Tiebreaker) Flash 14cc at the natural and walled-in in time to deflect Fly's harassment. Flash safely put down a 3rd while damaging Fly's economy with hellion harass. Fly scouted the 3rd and tried to do a roach hydra timing push. Flash read Fly's strategy and made a large amount of marauders coupled with tanks, widowmines, marines, and medivac. Flash deflected Fly's push and ended the game soon after.
On June 30 2013 22:26 SniXSniPe wrote: So nobody knows why Flash>LoveCD>Fly>Flash (all with 3-1 records) has Flash and LoveCD advancing...
:|
My report says there was a tiebreaker but it's not recorded on the site for unknown reason. Fly lost to both Flash and LoveCD so the later two advance.
I heard that the tie breaker was actually sorted by who had the most supply at the time of gg.
No, they played Tiebreaker and Fly lost both games to LoveCD and Flash. Taiwanese site did a very brief battle report.
Fly vs LoveCD (Tiebreaker) LoveCD started the game with a Nexus first followed by a warp-prism sentry play to seal and kill Fly's main. However, LoveCD's force fields were not optimal, and Fly deflected the attack. LoveCD followed up with immortal all-in after tricking Fly by canceling the 3rd Nexus. Fly was not prepared for the all-in and lost the game.
Fly vs Flash (Tiebreaker) Flash 14cc at the natural and walled-in in time to deflect Fly's harassment. Flash safely put down a 3rd while damaging Fly's economy with hellion harass. Fly scouted the 3rd and tried to do a roach hydra timing push. Flash read Fly's strategy and made a large amount of marauders coupled with tanks, widowmines, marines, and medivac. Flash deflected Fly's push and ended the game soon after.
Thanks for the info, one of the few bits of actual Starcraft we can actually glean here lol.
well, Life gets his sponsorship through the nonkorean company redbull and flash makes bank through his salary with KT.
having your athlete play to represent korea (and your asian based company) at an olympic type event is a priority. Life does better for the redbull product overseas probably (I would guess).
Those decisions made before the kespa qualifiers--i.e. Stats also got to get to represent KT at MLG.
On July 01 2013 11:22 N.geNuity wrote: well, Life gets his sponsorship through the nonkorean company redbull and flash makes bank through his salary with KT.
having your athlete play to represent korea (and your asian based company) at an olympic type event is a priority. Life does better for the redbull product overseas probably (I would guess).
Those decisions made before the kespa qualifiers--i.e. Stats also got to get to represent KT at MLG.
Makes most sense. KT is a korean based company and thinks little about the western world. Pretty easy tournament with only one real competition (sOs), + gold medal + the title of "representing korea", considering how nationalistic koreans can be, the logical choice for Flash is to choose this tournament over MLG
On July 01 2013 11:22 N.geNuity wrote: well, Life gets his sponsorship through the nonkorean company redbull and flash makes bank through his salary with KT.
having your athlete play to represent korea (and your asian based company) at an olympic type event is a priority. Life does better for the redbull product overseas probably (I would guess).
Those decisions made before the kespa qualifiers--i.e. Stats also got to get to represent KT at MLG.
Makes most sense. KT is a korean based company and thinks little about the western world. Pretty easy tournament with only one real competition (sOs), + gold medal + the title of "representing korea", considering how nationalistic koreans can be, the logical choice for Flash is to choose this tournament over MLG
Tournament actually wasn't that easy with sOs and Flash both dropping games. I really wanted Sen to win, but sigh forever third
lolol i just read this article about the asian indoor games back in 2009 which was held in vietnam. from the article:
"The Starcraft games was very embarassing to say the least. China to send 2 of their Fifa and NFS players to join a Starcraft match instantly forfeited and gave Korea the freewin.Games between Qatar, China, and India are absolutely shitty - ones that you can see a player open with 1 gate 1 forge PvZ and start zealot production.
Lets not even start taking about Flash vs Qatar, the result?
Flash won in game 1 with a 2scv+1marine attack tvz. Won 2nd game with a full force 6 SCV attack."
On July 01 2013 12:49 theMagus wrote: lolol i just read this article about the asian indoor games back in 2009 which was held in vietnam. from the article:
"The Starcraft games was very embarassing to say the least. China to send 2 of their Fifa and NFS players to join a Starcraft match instantly forfeited and gave Korea the freewin.Games between Qatar, China, and India are absolutely shitty - ones that you can see a player open with 1 gate 1 forge PvZ and start zealot production.
Lets not even start taking about Flash vs Qatar, the result?
Flash won in game 1 with a 2scv+1marine attack tvz. Won 2nd game with a full force 6 SCV attack."
On July 01 2013 11:22 N.geNuity wrote: well, Life gets his sponsorship through the nonkorean company redbull and flash makes bank through his salary with KT.
having your athlete play to represent korea (and your asian based company) at an olympic type event is a priority. Life does better for the redbull product overseas probably (I would guess).
Those decisions made before the kespa qualifiers--i.e. Stats also got to get to represent KT at MLG.
Makes most sense. KT is a korean based company and thinks little about the western world. Pretty easy tournament with only one real competition (sOs), + gold medal + the title of "representing korea", considering how nationalistic koreans can be, the logical choice for Flash is to choose this tournament over MLG
Tournament actually wasn't that easy with sOs and Flash both dropping games. I really wanted Sen to win, but sigh forever third
Bo1 will do that to you. The asian players outside of Korea are huge unknowns outside of a few well known ones (Sen + Macsed etc) Going into the tournament though, youd think itd be pretty much a clean sweep for both the players.
On July 01 2013 12:49 theMagus wrote: lolol i just read this article about the asian indoor games back in 2009 which was held in vietnam. from the article:
"The Starcraft games was very embarassing to say the least. China to send 2 of their Fifa and NFS players to join a Starcraft match instantly forfeited and gave Korea the freewin.Games between Qatar, China, and India are absolutely shitty - ones that you can see a player open with 1 gate 1 forge PvZ and start zealot production.
Lets not even start taking about Flash vs Qatar, the result?
Flash won in game 1 with a 2scv+1marine attack tvz. Won 2nd game with a full force 6 SCV attack."
On July 01 2013 12:49 theMagus wrote: lolol i just read this article about the asian indoor games back in 2009 which was held in vietnam. from the article:
"The Starcraft games was very embarassing to say the least. China to send 2 of their Fifa and NFS players to join a Starcraft match instantly forfeited and gave Korea the freewin.Games between Qatar, China, and India are absolutely shitty - ones that you can see a player open with 1 gate 1 forge PvZ and start zealot production.
Lets not even start taking about Flash vs Qatar, the result?
Flash won in game 1 with a 2scv+1marine attack tvz. Won 2nd game with a full force 6 SCV attack."
On July 01 2013 12:49 theMagus wrote: lolol i just read this article about the asian indoor games back in 2009 which was held in vietnam. from the article:
"The Starcraft games was very embarassing to say the least. China to send 2 of their Fifa and NFS players to join a Starcraft match instantly forfeited and gave Korea the freewin.Games between Qatar, China, and India are absolutely shitty - ones that you can see a player open with 1 gate 1 forge PvZ and start zealot production.
Lets not even start taking about Flash vs Qatar, the result?
Flash won in game 1 with a 2scv+1marine attack tvz. Won 2nd game with a full force 6 SCV attack."
Hahaha I still remember that. I actually came to the stadium with my friends to watch the game (mostly Dota though, cause I didn't follow professional BW at that time) and I have to admit, even a total noob like me can play better than most of the guys there xD
Flash defeated LoveCD 2-0 in the AIMAG SC2 semi-finals.
Flash's performance changed drastically in one hour like he was a completely different person (referring to from his performance in group stage to the semi finals). As to his secret, he answered "Using strategic openers". Flash had met LoveCD multiple times on the ladder before, combined with the fact that they fought in the group stage, allowed Flash to understand how his opponent likes to open his macro, so he was able to respond and win easily.
"The opponent was very good, it made me very stressed. In the beginning when I met him on the ladder I was thinking, (he) plays so well, could it be Rain? I even specifically went to check his ID, and found out that it was Chinese player LoveCD. He had so much ability so I didn't under-estimate him, in the end I won with full preparation."
Flash also said that he hopes sOs could win the other semifinals. If the finals is between Korean players there wouldn't be pressure to capture the gold, and Flash had focused on his TvP for a while and has improved his ability so he's very confident.
"Ofcourse if foreigner player advance it would be more relaxed / easy for me. But if sOs advances there are more advantages. Especially since me and sOs finally have a day to rest, we want to play well, if we both advance into the finals, then we can have alot of fun (laugh)."
Flash has already captured medals twice in the AIMAG but his ambition isn't stopping there. More so than medals he wants to capture the gold consecutively, so he also said that he has to win in the finals.
"Since fans are anticipating it, I will definitely bring them good news. Please continue to support me / watch me!"
On July 02 2013 11:09 Ace Frehley wrote: This is like a super secret tournament Nobody can see a thing
Official events with any level of government involvement tend to be done more so for political gestures than convenience for the viewers. Took a long time for international sporting events to become the media frenzy that they are today.
"The opponent was very good, it made me very stressed. In the beginning when I met him on the ladder I was thinking, (he) plays so well, could it be (P)Rain? I even specifically went to check his ID, and found out that it was Chinese player LoveCD. He had so much ability so I didn't under-estimate him, in the end I won with full preparation."
This guy is probably legit, Flash usually tells the truth in interviews about his own and other peoples skill.
On July 02 2013 22:05 tomatriedes wrote: Sucks we can't watch this.
OGN will have a delayed broadcast in about 20 minutes. Only way to view it outside of Korea is VLC. Actually, I don't know now.... they are just playing 켠김에 왕까지 episodes at the moment.
On July 02 2013 22:05 tomatriedes wrote: Sucks we can't watch this.
OGN will have a delayed broadcast in about 20 minutes. Only way to view it outside of Korea is VLC. Actually, I don't know now.... they are just playing 켠김에 왕까지 episodes at the moment.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there)
Interview taken after the finals: Q: How are you going to work toward more WCS points?
Flash: "It's true that I lack WCS points. When I gave up MLG seed, KeSPA promised me that I can participate in NA/EU tournaments more. Although it's a little different from my estimate, but I will go to 2-3 tournaments."
On July 03 2013 05:29 larse wrote: Interview taken after the finals: Q: How are you going to work toward more WCS points?
Flash: "It's true that I lack WCS points. When I gave up MLG seed, KeSPA promised me that I can participate in NA/EU tournaments more. Although it's a little different from my estimate, but I will go to 2-3 tournaments."
So I read the Chinese translation of the interview. 2 quick points:
- SoS said his mid-late game is weaker than Flash's, so going into today, he decided to "modify" his early-game tactics
- Flash really isn't disappointed in the loss. He felt pretty relaxed today. The only disappointment that came was because a lot of fans came to cheer him on.
On July 03 2013 05:21 Canucklehead wrote: Flash lost to sos? I can't believe it after how badly innovation bopped sos. Don't really consider the skill gap b/w innovation and flash is that big.
s0s played really badly against innovation to be fair. I don't think it's entirely fair to say sOs got owned by him, in that series he did but I'd say if they'd rematch it'd be a different story.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't even the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't even the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
Oh definitely definitely...in HoTS: The 4-4 record vs Parting The 5-4 record vs Innovation The 3-1 record vs Soulkey The 2-0 vs Roro The 2-1 vs Fantasy The 3-1 vs CJ HerO is simply unacceptable! HES TERRIBLE AGAINST TOP TIER PLAYERS! nothing impressive at all.
I mean look at how bad he is against players like Rain. he loses to him ALL the time. Rain has like a simply dominating 1-0 vs Flash. Can we say Flash simply cannot beat Rain?
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there)
And nobody else is close to those 4.
Not qualifying for MLG/AIMAG is because they simply couldnt even gain the entry ticket to participate in the tournament. If you also look at where Soulkey/Innovation fell in the MLG qualifer, it is indeed a colossal failure, although Innovation did pretty good in AIMAG. I dont classify Ro32 as colossal failure because at least youve gained entry to the tournament although losing in the first round. If we include the fact that RO32 is indeed a "colossal failure", then that would make flash the most consistently high ranking player out of the 5.
On July 03 2013 06:22 Popkiller wrote: uh oh, Flash lost to a "casual" player...
Im extremely interested to see the VoD between Fly/LoveCD vs Flash, especially if LoveCD is as good as Rain according to him. There's so many untapped players in China, they really need a good esports infrastructure and more teams.
On July 03 2013 06:22 Popkiller wrote: uh oh, Flash lost to a "casual" player...
Im extremely interested to see the VoD between Fly/LoveCD vs Flash, especially if LoveCD is as good as Rain according to him. There's so many untapped players in China, they really need a good esports infrastructure and more teams.
I was talking about sOs and how his coach called him a casual player... and I was kind of poking fun at that because he's pretty damn good.
On July 03 2013 06:22 Popkiller wrote: uh oh, Flash lost to a "casual" player...
Im extremely interested to see the VoD between Fly/LoveCD vs Flash, especially if LoveCD is as good as Rain according to him. There's so many untapped players in China, they really need a good esports infrastructure and more teams.
I was talking about sOs and how his coach called him a casual player... and I was kind of poking fun at that because he's pretty damn good.
Didnt the coach say ever since he got to the RO4 in GSL, he's been taking the game more seriously and actually training hard :p?
On July 03 2013 06:35 NicksonReyes wrote: Well, Protoss is still Flash's weakness after all. If LoveCD is really as good as Rain, he should have pwned Flash ez.
And this is based on what? Rain's 1-0 record against Flash in HoTS? Lol....
But youre right. its crazy how TvP is Flash's weakest match up and his winrate for it is a terrible 64%.
On July 03 2013 06:35 NicksonReyes wrote: Well, Protoss is still Flash's weakness after all. If LoveCD is really as good as Rain, he should have pwned Flash ez.
And this is based on what? Rain's 1-0 record against Flash in HoTS? Lol....
But youre right. its crazy how TvP is Flash's weakest match up and his winrate for it is a terrible 64%.
rain dosent make mistakes in pvt . as simple as that . and we saw how flash can throw games last season vs parting on daybreak .
On July 03 2013 06:35 NicksonReyes wrote: Well, Protoss is still Flash's weakness after all. If LoveCD is really as good as Rain, he should have pwned Flash ez.
And this is based on what? Rain's 1-0 record against Flash in HoTS? Lol....
But youre right. its crazy how TvP is Flash's weakest match up and his winrate for it is a terrible 64%.
rain dosent make mistakes in pvt . as simple as that . and we saw how flash can throw games last season vs parting on daybreak .
But if we can recall the previous time Flash met Rain in the GSL, Flash beat Rain in dominating fashion. Although arguable in SPL, Rain completely outclassed Flash in their only head to head match up.
As for the throwing...anyone can throw games.. I can argue how terrible Innovation is based on how badly he lost against Turn who played pretty badly.. or how Soulkey's ZvP is weak based on how Stats ran circles around him with his air-toss.
flash's tvp is still lacking it seems. honestly, whenever flash is facing a good protoss, i get kinda worried. but oh well. he's still far from his bw form and he has quite a bit of time to get there
grats to sos though! seems like he really knew what to do against flash.
On July 03 2013 06:35 NicksonReyes wrote: Well, Protoss is still Flash's weakness after all. If LoveCD is really as good as Rain, he should have pwned Flash ez.
And this is based on what? Rain's 1-0 record against Flash in HoTS? Lol....
But youre right. its crazy how TvP is Flash's weakest match up and his winrate for it is a terrible 64%.
On July 03 2013 06:35 NicksonReyes wrote: Well, Protoss is still Flash's weakness after all. If LoveCD is really as good as Rain, he should have pwned Flash ez.
And this is based on what? Rain's 1-0 record against Flash in HoTS? Lol....
But youre right. its crazy how TvP is Flash's weakest match up and his winrate for it is a terrible 64%.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't even the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't even the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
Flash 2-0'd Soulkey in the last GSL, and has a positive record against Innovation. Losing to life at MLG when hots was barely released does not show a lack of skill.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I can't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't even the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
If by "kept losing" you mean beating Parting at MLG and then losing in the GSL and losing to life at MLG when he'd practiced HotS for two days, then sure.
On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote: Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe.
Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd.
On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote: Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe.
Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd.
PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that. PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa. WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf. MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf. So PL < WCS KR. The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR.
On July 03 2013 08:47 cythaze wrote: Agreed on the last post, Flash is definitly very good right now, but at no time since his switch to sc2 i would have rated him at top 5 in the world.
I wouldn`t rated him 4 or 5 for a while now. He`s got skills.
Anyway congradz sOs on your win! Unfortunate it was pretty under the radar though
On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote: Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe.
Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd.
PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that. PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa. WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf. MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf. So PL < WCS KR. The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR.
Obviously the best ESF players are better than the average Kespa players. No good ESF players participated in MLG though, so that's not really a good example.
On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote: Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe.
Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd.
PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that. PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa. WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf. MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf. So PL < WCS KR. The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR.
You also got to note that their were only 3 of them, and when they did lose it was considered an upset. Odds were pretty against them..
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues.
You havent discredited my response to your post. I've proven to you with a wide list of Flash's record against the top players. Outside of being 0-1 vs Rain and Something like 3-5 vs Life, he has a 50% or better against all of them and yet you think its lame to have his name in the mix? I didnt know you had to have a 1st place to be put into discussion of being a top tier player. News to me. Thinking Flash is only an amazing team league player...jesus christ dude.
On July 03 2013 06:14 painkilla wrote: Also look at the performances of the Kespa representatives in the recent MLG. This tells me that PL isn't as hard as many people would like to believe.
Soo is 1-7 in Proleague. Stats is the only one of the three to have over a 60% win rate in Proleague and hasn't had individual league success in over 3 years. Dear has never had any individual league success. Basing anything about Proleague off of them not winning MLG is absurd.
PL is the hardest team league but PL < WCS KR in terms of player qualities and MLG proved that. PL = best Kespa + average Kespa + worst Kespa. WCS KR = best Kespa + best Esf. MLG proved that average Kespa < best Esf. So PL < WCS KR. The math is so obvious on this one yet so many ppl would love to argue that PL is at least equal to WCS KR.
Obviously the best ESF players are better than the average Kespa players. No good ESF players participated in MLG though, so that's not really a good example.
This is true, none did but I do agree that the top tier GSTL players are likely better than the mid tier SPL players No one's arguing PL is equal to WCS KR but that doesnt mean the results portrayed in SPL should be discredited at all
Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues.
i very much disagree with you but whatever man. you talk about results but you like cherry picking data. naturally, you'll come to that conclusion lol. anyway, we'll see soon enough if flash is worthy of that categorization or not
On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote: Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though.
On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote: Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though.
But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable?
Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list.
It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with.
frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear.
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear.
I know. Just an added tidbit because it is an interesting opinion that a bunch of pros share.
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear.
I know. Just an added tidbit because it is an interesting opinion that a bunch of pros share.
So you know the point is invalid, and still feel the need to share? That's strange.
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
This doesn't explain why Mkp can't win GSL =)
It's because MKP likes to base trade whenever possible lol it's against his nature to defend
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
He likes it better because he is winning, pretty simple and clear.
I know. Just an added tidbit because it is an interesting opinion that a bunch of pros share.
So you know the point is invalid, and still feel the need to share? That's strange.
I don't understand why you have to pick a fight whenever BW is mentioned, as if it is a personal insult. I didn't say either is better or worse, or that one is more fun than the other, just that Innovation is enjoying more (obviously in big part of his fat paychecks).
The sentence isn't invalid; it is arguably irrelevant, but only if you think that a player's success and their enjoyment of a game are irrelevant to his opinions of said game in the above discussion.
On July 03 2013 14:06 docvoc wrote: I'm looking forward to this :D. First time I'll have watched it. Anyone have any idea who moghavem is? Also any stream links?
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
Is anybody arguing that mechanics and fundamentals don't make a difference in Starcraft 2...?
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues.
You havent discredited my response to your post. I've proven to you with a wide list of Flash's record against the top players. Outside of being 0-1 vs Rain and Something like 3-5 vs Life, he has a 50% or better against all of them and yet you think its lame to have his name in the mix? I didnt know you had to have a 1st place to be put into discussion of being a top tier player. News to me. Thinking Flash is only an amazing team league player...jesus christ dude.
Slow down. I didn't follow PL (I don't like BO1) so I only said what I saw from Flash in individual league. Lol and I never said Flash was not good in individual league. He is certainly scary and can take out anyone but remember it took him 4 or 5 seasons to even get to premier league and so certainly something is holding him back. What is lame is that some people just claim PL > WCS KR and use that to justify propelling Flash into top x, levels above the rest. If you can give a reasonable argument that Flash is top x then it is not lame. Like I said I think if Flash can win WCS then it is awesome since it will give a lot of legitimacy to the term "RTS talent". I think I would like to see Jaedong winning even more he is such a likeable guy.
On July 03 2013 13:07 rift wrote: frankly the nature of sc2 is that players' skill levels are so similar because there are fewer differentiators of skill to separate them from one another
Innovation mentioned in his recent TL interview that micro and proper engagements are more important in SC2 than BW, and that good mechanics and fundamentals can make a big difference in SC2 (and that it was in strategy he was lacking in BW). And apparently he likes SC2 better than BW lol
Is anybody arguing that mechanics and fundamentals don't make a difference in Starcraft 2...?
rift mentioned that there were fewer differentiators. I agree that there are fewer differentiators (since macro is easier and there are a lot of simplified controls), but mentioned Innovation's comment because I think that the few differentiators that are left still make a sizable gap between the best players. Basically, the skill ceiling might be lower, but it's still realistically unreachable (BW had infinity ceiling, SC2 has infinity divided by 2 skill ceiling, for example, amounting to a smaller infinity).
Flash: - Ro16 WCS KR - Did not paritcipate WCS Finals - Ro16 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG qualifiers - 2nd Asian Games - 2nd MLG Invitational
(2 Runner up, 2 RO16 KR (1 of them on-going), 0 colossal failures)
Life - RO16 WCS KR - Did not participate WCS KR Finals - Ro32 WCS KR S2 - Did not participate MLG Spring 2013 - 2nd in Asian Games but forfeited his spot to Flash so... moot. - 1st MLG Invitational HoTS
I c.an't agree with your definition of "colossal failure" if losing in WCS KR Ro32 isn't, while not qualifying for MLG or AIMAG is.
For me the list of HOTS accomplishments is like this: 1. Innovation 2. Soulkey 3. sOs 4. Flash (Proleague is arguably as tough as WCS KR, if not harder, and Flash is kicking butt over there) And nobody else is close to those 4.
Flash has accomplished nothing impressive in HoTs so far. He kept losing to Life & Parting despite terran being quite strong atm, and those players aren't the top of their races atm. He might be very solid against mid-tier players, but usually fell apart when facing high level opponents, which really explain why he had so many wins (against mediocre players in all kill format) in pl but has not done well in individual league. And nobody thinks Pl is harder than WCS KR except for BW elitists.
I don't hate Flash, in fact I think to have Flash as a sc2 champion is good for the game. But to see people time and time again try to force his name into a top 3/4 in the world that "are just levels above" the rest while he has not had the results to back it up is quite lame. Flash is an amazing TEAM LEAGUE player because of he has this great stamina that allows him to play many good matchs in a row. However he still has troubles against top competitions in high stake situation, in individual leagues.
You havent discredited my response to your post. I've proven to you with a wide list of Flash's record against the top players. Outside of being 0-1 vs Rain and Something like 3-5 vs Life, he has a 50% or better against all of them and yet you think its lame to have his name in the mix? I didnt know you had to have a 1st place to be put into discussion of being a top tier player. News to me. Thinking Flash is only an amazing team league player...jesus christ dude.
Slow down. I didn't follow PL (I don't like BO1) so I only said what I saw from Flash in individual league. Lol and I never said Flash was not good in individual league. He is certainly scary and can take out anyone but remember it took him 4 or 5 seasons to even get to premier league and so certainly something is holding him back. What is lame is that some people just claim PL > WCS KR and use that to justify propelling Flash into top x, levels above the rest. If you can give a reasonable argument that Flash is top x then it is not lame. Like I said I think if Flash can win WCS then it is awesome since it will give a lot of legitimacy to the term "RTS talent". I think I would like to see Jaedong winning even more he is such a likeable guy.
It took him 3 seasons, and the only reason he didn't on his first two tries were because of a tiebreaker rule.
On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote: Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though.
But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable?
Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list.
It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with.
hmm. i think using data across wcs, proleague and gstl tournament results wouldn't be unreasonable. perhaps the use of adjustment variables in the wcs rankings would make things more balanced. i don't think it's impossible at all within the parameters of a qualifier, which is what i was arguing.
the thing is, results in tournaments are really the only way to make any kind of sensible ranking. it's not unreasonable to associate results with skill as well, and people who argue with tournament results are just being silly. when flash lost to innovation and parting in the last gsl, i just accepted that those two players were better than him 'overall' in terms of the variables that were involved in the match (this includes skill in the match up, preparation for specific opponents, tvt cheese vs. tvt cheese defense in terms of inno vs flash, other factors). when life lost to sjow and tlo, i assumed the same as in the case with flash. i don't think it's sensible to argue otherwise, unless the players had a valid reason to play considerably below their capability, like sickness.
a list of 'top 10 most skilled players exclusive of tournament results' doesn't make much sense to me honestly, and i agree that a list like that which people won't argue over can't be done because it would be based on the wildly different subjective perceptions of people of skill to begin with. you'd end up with something like the osl player stats/cards which, while they are entertaining, isn't objective at all.
On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote: Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though.
But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable?
Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list.
It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with.
hmm. i think using data across wcs, proleague and gstl tournament results wouldn't be unreasonable. perhaps the use of adjustment variables in the wcs rankings would make things more balanced. i don't think it's impossible at all within the parameters of a qualifier, which is what i was arguing.
the thing is, results in tournaments are really the only way to make any kind of sensible ranking. it's not unreasonable to associate results with skill as well, and people who argue with tournament results are just being silly. when flash lost to innovation and parting in the last gsl, i just accepted that those two players were better than him 'overall' in terms of the variables that were involved in the match (this includes skill in the match up, preparation for specific opponents, tvt cheese vs. tvt cheese defense in terms of inno vs flash, other factors). when life lost to sjow and tlo, i assumed the same as in the case with flash. i don't think it's sensible to argue otherwise, unless the players had a valid reason to play considerably below their capability, like sickness.
a list of 'top 10 most skilled players exclusive of tournament results' doesn't make much sense to me honestly, and i agree that a list like that which people won't argue over can't be done because it would be based on the wildly different subjective perceptions of people of skill to begin with. you'd end up with something like the osl player stats/cards which, while they are entertaining, isn't objective at all.
I actually quite liked the cards, because they give insight on player reputations
But they gave Shine a cheese rating of like 70, which is total balls
On July 03 2013 10:47 lichter wrote: Anyone who thinks they can come up with a definitive Top 5, or even Top 10, list of players overestimates their abilities to judge player skill. The differences are that close, the margins that tiny, between the top players.
it's not really that hard to make a top 5 or 10 list with a corresponding qualifier and its methodology, where that list would be definitive within the parameters of that qualifier. there are wcs and kespa rankings to work with. a list without those rankings is probably just favoritism or wishful thinking though.
But will that qualifier or methodology necessarily be correct, acceptable, or even reasonable?
Kespa rankings and WCS points are determined by success, not skill. Of course the two are correlated but not necessarily the same. For example Life and Flash (aside from PL) kinda suck achievement wise lately. Kespa rankings only include players in Kespa sanctioned events, so Proleague players get a huge boost. WCS points are weird to use to determine a top10 due to regional inequality. TLO is currently 7th best player in the world according to WCS points. I'm sure no one will argue either ranking can be considered a good Top 10 list.
It's just really not possible to make a definitive, perfect Top 10 that no one can argue with.
hmm. i think using data across wcs, proleague and gstl tournament results wouldn't be unreasonable. perhaps the use of adjustment variables in the wcs rankings would make things more balanced. i don't think it's impossible at all within the parameters of a qualifier, which is what i was arguing.
the thing is, results in tournaments are really the only way to make any kind of sensible ranking. it's not unreasonable to associate results with skill as well, and people who argue with tournament results are just being silly. when flash lost to innovation and parting in the last gsl, i just accepted that those two players were better than him 'overall' in terms of the variables that were involved in the match (this includes skill in the match up, preparation for specific opponents, tvt cheese vs. tvt cheese defense in terms of inno vs flash, other factors). when life lost to sjow and tlo, i assumed the same as in the case with flash. i don't think it's sensible to argue otherwise, unless the players had a valid reason to play considerably below their capability, like sickness.
a list of 'top 10 most skilled players exclusive of tournament results' doesn't make much sense to me honestly, and i agree that a list like that which people won't argue over can't be done because it would be based on the wildly different subjective perceptions of people of skill to begin with. you'd end up with something like the osl player stats/cards which, while they are entertaining, isn't objective at all.
I actually quite liked the cards, because they give insight on player reputations
But they gave Shine a cheese rating of like 70, which is total balls
lol true. i like them too actually. seeing them and then people's reactions to them is amusing.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.ocasia.org/Images-Thumbnails/Incheon-2013_5118430011752.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/r9ZH0.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6wl40.png)
AiDeMiGoDMSI [Iran]
sOs [South Korea]
Sen [Taiwan]
Flash [South Korea]![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l5YZ8.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3wcCS.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5103122.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5101315.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5100930.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5102447.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5100929.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5200051.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5100192.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5100595.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.aimag2013.org/photo/5100913.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.plu.cn/d/file/sc2/info/2013-07-01/21dd4d79e5baaf31259c3906347abaf7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.esports.com.tw/userfile/news/2013-06/27/3J930D8TrN20130627201808tRN2VN097n.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.esports.com.tw/userfile/news/2013-06/27/kXO2VQP35q20130627201636XOf1HQwBvo.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.21cb.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/korea-child-starcraft.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa9/KTF_Romantic/imgA1.tmp.jpg?t=1292102548)
![[image loading]](http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7885/yellowkkogc3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9987/111hq5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2864/999ph7.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1353/888an9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vbsACa8.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8sjCBJn.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OOoeIyT.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/g38mZk2.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d0ANDL4.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UXCA9id.png)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/c/c8/Bisu-LP-MLG20120609-222817.jpg/300px-Bisu-LP-MLG20120609-222817.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Y20mNzx.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FV0i46j.jpg)
