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was at work in north america so missed the sjow vs life games, but wouldn't have watched it anyway, because life was gonna stomp him. i mean cmon everyone predicted 2-0. goddamn sjow proved everyone wrong, that last game was awesome back and forth. what a hero
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jvz's vt improves a lot comparing with his sloppy zvp, btw good job sjow! you just approved nothing is impossible
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Northern Ireland26092 Posts
JvZ is the new JYPvT alas  Pretty bad, but not AS bad as everyone makes out and with the possibility of solidity in the future. JYP's vT was never outright terrible, in fact he often looked quite well set and would make some catastrophic error after playing well.
Jaedong is the same, and I've watched a lot of his games in the matchup. He will frequently play really solidly, and then make some maddening decision that costs him the game.
For me the latter is probably an easier fix than the former, and he's in a team with HerO, JYP and Oz to practice with. He'll get there. It wasn't that long ago that his vT wasn't too hot at all, and while it's not up there with his vZ, it's definitely getting better and he's gotten some pretty good scalps of late.
Top 3 and Runner-up consecutively is solid when you consider the playerpools of the last two Dreamhacks. Players like Gumiho, Life, Taeja and HerO didn't do better than the Dong, I feel people are overreacting.
If he was not Jaedong, he'd be admired for his ridiculous Zerg mirror chops and seen as a promising player! I for one am happy to see that he's still working at improving his game, and hopefully he among many of the other old BW legends will stick around for the current generation to enjoy!
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On June 18 2013 12:22 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 11:27 BigFan wrote:On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. you should watch JD's series against Taeja and Lucifron. Ya, he made lots of mistakes against Lucifron but both series were nail baiting and his series against Taeja was really impressive. If he can bring that level of play to ZvP then with his decent ZvT and great ZvZ, he might be able to get much further than he currently is  That might very well be, i didnt want to say that sc2 just consists of all-ins nor that Jaedong is a bad player (after seeing his stream, i think that he might be the most gifted individual in terms of mechanics on the planet), just that i found the final pretty disappointing in every regards. Note that the following is solely my opinion on why i liked the dota 2 final way more than the sc2 final: I regard pvt and especially pvz as repetitive and uninteresting as in both mus most of the time one side all-ins and 9/10 all-ins end in a scenario clearly favoring one side, which in sc2 is pretty much game every time. Watching each player choosing a build that in 10 minutes will either save them or doom them without any idea what the opponent is going for into waiting 5-10 minutes for one fight in which one side rolls over the other and we either see an immediate gg or 5-10 minutes of death animation every time is just not what i think is a rewarding viewer experience. To make things worse, most of the builds are well known.
What you described seems pretty boring. It's a good thing that neither standard PvT nor standard PvZ looks remotely like that.
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I just noticed that Dreamhack didn't have the fancy base graphics for Stardust. Apparently mYinsanity isn't a big enough team, while Jaedong had the EG logo in each of his bases.
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to me it's his mechanics that saved him in many zvt MUs and makes his mirror match so formidable,his larva spawn ability gives him more lings which is the most critical unit in zvt or zvz. so a lot of time he could afford a few mistakes with overwhelming army. but in zvp because of ff and zealots zerg can't defend simply with pure lings, its more about economy than larvas
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No.. JD ...don't worry Bisu will win the next Dreamhack.
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Wow...was watching stardust's stream a week ago and he was constantly floating 1-2k minerals but was in Korean GM and was confused as hell that he was in GM, he's play seemed so bad from what I was watching, shocking results, definitely gonna watch the vods to see how the hell he won
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On June 18 2013 12:58 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 12:22 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 11:27 BigFan wrote:On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. you should watch JD's series against Taeja and Lucifron. Ya, he made lots of mistakes against Lucifron but both series were nail baiting and his series against Taeja was really impressive. If he can bring that level of play to ZvP then with his decent ZvT and great ZvZ, he might be able to get much further than he currently is That might very well be, i didnt want to say that sc2 just consists of all-ins nor that Jaedong is a bad player (after seeing his stream, i think that he might be the most gifted individual in terms of mechanics on the planet), just that i found the final pretty disappointing in every regards. Note that the following is solely my opinion on why i liked the dota 2 final way more than the sc2 final: I regard pvt and especially pvz as repetitive and uninteresting as in both mus most of the time one side all-ins and 9/10 all-ins end in a scenario clearly favoring one side, which in sc2 is pretty much game every time. Watching each player choosing a build that in 10 minutes will either save them or doom them without any idea what the opponent is going for into waiting 5-10 minutes for one fight in which one side rolls over the other and we either see an immediate gg or 5-10 minutes of death animation every time is just not what i think is a rewarding viewer experience. To make things worse, most of the builds are well known. What you described seems pretty boring. It's a good thing that neither standard PvT nor standard PvZ looks remotely like that.
well as long as it was only the final, everything is fine.
If you are referring with standard to the "standard"-builds that favor lategame, i have to say that most of the Toss never play "standard" when i am watching them play pvz.
If you are saying that the five pvz we just saw werent like that, i am very interested to hear where they differed. Because all i saw were player dying to all-ins, either to their own (2x) or to their opponent's (3x). I am not sure how JD's all-in in game one is supposed to work, as Stardust didnt do anything out of the ordinary. I dont recall the game on Neo Planet S very well, but i think jaedong just blindly drew the right counterbuild against that gateway style with an early roach warren. The other three games were successful all-ins.
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On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time.
You might have a point if not for the racist part.
Dota has loads of problems with it as an Esport too though. It's slow, most of the same hero's are picked over and over, in most games it becomes really clear who's won about 20 mintues before it happens and then there's this huge procession while you wait for the clear winners to actually win. As well as a whole bunch of over stuff I don't feel like going into.
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just watched Game 3 of JD vs Stardust
my god JD played that out so badly at the end
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On June 18 2013 13:19 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. You might have a point if not for the racist part. Dota has loads of problems with it as an Esport too though. It's slow, most of the same hero's are picked over and over, in most games it becomes really clear who's won about 20 mintues before it happens and then there's this huge procession while you wait for the clear winners to actually win. As well as a whole bunch of over stuff I don't feel like going into.
what do you mean? if you are referring to the point that i (an European) can associate myself more with Swedish players than with Koreans, you just have to watch how the crowd at dh reacts every time a foreigner wins or go to a soccer-stadium, apparently i am not alone. I am not disrespecting them as humans and I didnt intend to say that Koreans are worse players than Europeans and just able to toss coins, i intended to say that pvz is horrible, that i prefer watching dota 2 and that it is usually easier for me to root for a team that is from an area close by than from an area far away.
I dont say that dota is perfect, but actually there's a lot more going on most of the time, comebacks actually exist (given, they are rare) and most of the time strategy and tactic heavily influence the game's outcome. And i would dare to say that the current hero-pool is pretty big (we saw 20 of 30 heroes possible in three matches, and alliance isnt known for their variability in hero picks) and differs largely from team to team and strat to strat.
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On June 18 2013 13:28 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 13:19 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. You might have a point if not for the racist part. what do you mean? if you are referring to the point that i (an European) can associate myself more with Swedish players than with Koreans, you just have to watch how the crowd at dh reacts every time a foreigner wins or go to a soccer-stadium, apparently i am not alone. I am not disrespecting them as humans and I didnt intend to say that Koreans are worse players than Europeans and just able to toss coins, i intended to say that pvz is horrible, that i prefer watching dota 2 and that it is usually easier for me to root for a team that is from an area close by than from an area far away.
Saying that Dota 2 is a better game because Europeans can actually win is racist and stupid.
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I see where you are coming from. Recently, a lot of high-level matchups feel very coinflippy.
Taeja vs Jaedong stands out as well. Jaedong clearly mindgamed taeja from in-house practice (knowing to wait for the depot, and then knowing Taeja will 3cc after tilting) but in both cases the players chose their builds blindly and then find out who wins 5 minutes later.
The Jaedong/stardust series was almost as bad. Look at the third hatch cancel into roach rush. Is there any really any way to scout that with standard play? I'm not seeing any viable skill-based counter-play once the builds are chosen.
I realize that scouting and controlling the information your opponent sees is a large part of playing SC2 but was it this bad in BW?
Some games are absolutely amazing, but sometimes you just get a 2rax, cannon rush, or roach/bane allin and a player just rolls because their scout was 2 hexes to the left. Volatility is not good.
I do not agree that dota2 is a better game. I played a lot of dota back in warcraft and greatly enjoyed it, but it really falls short nowadays, especially as a spectator sport. The amount of knowledge required to play or understand the game competitively is immense (you essentially must know the abilities of every hero, and their viable builds or you will just die without even realizing what the other player did). The game is also exceptionally unforgiving and the vast majority of teamfights last all of 5 seconds.
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On June 18 2013 13:34 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 13:28 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 13:19 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. You might have a point if not for the racist part. what do you mean? if you are referring to the point that i (an European) can associate myself more with Swedish players than with Koreans, you just have to watch how the crowd at dh reacts every time a foreigner wins or go to a soccer-stadium, apparently i am not alone. I am not disrespecting them as humans and I didnt intend to say that Koreans are worse players than Europeans and just able to toss coins, i intended to say that pvz is horrible, that i prefer watching dota 2 and that it is usually easier for me to root for a team that is from an area close by than from an area far away. Saying that Dota 2 is a better game because Europeans can actually win is racist and stupid.
Now you are twisting my statement, i didnt say that and never wanted to, I wanted to say that that influences my viewer-experience, not the quality of the game. I wanted to state why i prefer watching dota 2 over sc2 and part of that is the quality of the game and part of that is obviously the emotional part which comes from associating with a team and rooting for them.
On June 18 2013 13:40 r691175002 wrote:
I see where you are coming from. Recently, a lot of high-level matchups feel very coinflippy.
Taeja vs Jaedong stands out as well. Jaedong clearly mindgamed taeja from in-house practice (knowing to wait for the depot, and then knowing Taeja will 3cc after tilting) but in both cases the players chose their builds blindly and then find out who wins 5 minutes later.
The Jaedong/stardust series was almost as bad. Look at the third hatch cancel into roach rush. Is there any really any way to scout that with standard play? I'm not seeing any viable skill-based counter-play once the builds are chosen.
I realize that scouting and controlling the information your opponent sees is a large part of playing SC2 but was it this bad in BW?
Some games are absolutely amazing, but sometimes you just get a 2rax, cannon rush, or roach/bane allin and a player just rolls because their scout was 2 hexes to the left. Volatility is not good.
I do not agree that dota2 is a better game. I played a lot of dota back in warcraft and greatly enjoyed it, but it really falls short nowadays, especially as a spectator sport. The amount of knowledge required to play or understand the game competitively is immense (you essentially must know the abilities of every hero, and their viable builds or you will just die without even realizing what the other player did). The game is also exceptionally unforgiving and the vast majority of teamfights last all of 5 seconds.
I agree that dota 2 needs vast amounts of knowledge to understand the game fully, but that is to me also part of the fascination, because i have the feeling that there are two teams at work that are way better at understanding the game, whereas in sc2 i often had the feeling that the main reason why these guys are playing there and not me is that they are just way faster, at least at the time when i watched it a lot. I learn something from every dota game i watch, which is half the reason why i love watching it so much.
But i agree that the basic knowledge needed to even understand what's going on is pretty much, which makes dota 2 quite the opposite to beginner friendly if you just watch it, so it definitely is less suitable for the mass.
Fights in sc2 dont last for much longer and change less during the fight (less turnarounds etc) and sc2 is according to my experience even less forgiving. A missed forcefield can loose you the game even in bronce, a skill that is not perfectly used will hardly have any impact if everything else was right in dota 2 in the normal matchmaking.
PS: i am tired, it's early in the morning and i am going to bed now. I might restructure the text later on, when i am fully awake and aware what i am typing.
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I doubt its his intention besides sjow beats life
On June 18 2013 13:34 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 13:28 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 13:19 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. You might have a point if not for the racist part. what do you mean? if you are referring to the point that i (an European) can associate myself more with Swedish players than with Koreans, you just have to watch how the crowd at dh reacts every time a foreigner wins or go to a soccer-stadium, apparently i am not alone. I am not disrespecting them as humans and I didnt intend to say that Koreans are worse players than Europeans and just able to toss coins, i intended to say that pvz is horrible, that i prefer watching dota 2 and that it is usually easier for me to root for a team that is from an area close by than from an area far away. Saying that Dota 2 is a better game because Europeans can actually win is racist and stupid.
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On June 18 2013 13:26 udgnim wrote:
just watched Game 3 of JD vs Stardust
my god JD played that out so badly at the end
Oh god, just watched it now...I cringed hard, JD could of just sent a drone somewhere else to build an extractor, can't believe he just sent 1. Wow...Such a simple mistake probably just cost him the whole series. Not only that, he could have simply engaged the first battle with his mutas and lings. SD had like 1 stalker with 8 sentries.
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So Stardust won! So sad i couldn't watch the final GG Stardust! <3
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On June 18 2013 13:40 Blackfeather wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 13:34 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 18 2013 13:28 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 13:19 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. You might have a point if not for the racist part. what do you mean? if you are referring to the point that i (an European) can associate myself more with Swedish players than with Koreans, you just have to watch how the crowd at dh reacts every time a foreigner wins or go to a soccer-stadium, apparently i am not alone. I am not disrespecting them as humans and I didnt intend to say that Koreans are worse players than Europeans and just able to toss coins, i intended to say that pvz is horrible, that i prefer watching dota 2 and that it is usually easier for me to root for a team that is from an area close by than from an area far away. Saying that Dota 2 is a better game because Europeans can actually win is racist and stupid. Now you are twisting my statement, i didnt say that and never wanted to, I wanted to say that that influences my viewer-experience, not the quality of the game. I wanted to state why i prefer watching dota 2 over sc2 and part of that is the quality of the game and part of that is obviously the emotional part which comes from associating with a team and rooting for them. Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 13:40 r691175002 wrote:
I see where you are coming from. Recently, a lot of high-level matchups feel very coinflippy.
Taeja vs Jaedong stands out as well. Jaedong clearly mindgamed taeja from in-house practice (knowing to wait for the depot, and then knowing Taeja will 3cc after tilting) but in both cases the players chose their builds blindly and then find out who wins 5 minutes later.
The Jaedong/stardust series was almost as bad. Look at the third hatch cancel into roach rush. Is there any really any way to scout that with standard play? I'm not seeing any viable skill-based counter-play once the builds are chosen.
I realize that scouting and controlling the information your opponent sees is a large part of playing SC2 but was it this bad in BW?
Some games are absolutely amazing, but sometimes you just get a 2rax, cannon rush, or roach/bane allin and a player just rolls because their scout was 2 hexes to the left. Volatility is not good.
I do not agree that dota2 is a better game. I played a lot of dota back in warcraft and greatly enjoyed it, but it really falls short nowadays, especially as a spectator sport. The amount of knowledge required to play or understand the game competitively is immense (you essentially must know the abilities of every hero, and their viable builds or you will just die without even realizing what the other player did). The game is also exceptionally unforgiving and the vast majority of teamfights last all of 5 seconds. I agree that dota 2 needs vast amounts of knowledge to understand the game fully, but that is to me also part of the fascination, because i have the feeling that there are two teams at work that are way better at understanding the game, whereas in sc2 i often had the feeling that the main reason why these guys are playing there and not me is that they are just way faster, at least at the time when i watched it a lot. I learn something from every dota game i watch, which is half the reason why i love watching it so much. But i agree that the basic knowledge needed to even understand what's going on is pretty much, which makes dota 2 quite the opposite to beginner friendly if you just watch it, so it definitely is less suitable for the mass. Fights in sc2 dont last for much longer and change less during the fight (less turnarounds etc) and sc2 is according to my experience even less forgiving. A missed forcefield can loose you the game even in bronce, a skill that is not perfectly used will hardly have any impact if everything else was right in dota 2 in the normal matchmaking. PS: i am tired, it's early in the morning and i am going to bed now. I might restructure the text later on, when i am fully awake and aware what i am typing.
So your favourite players are all the white guys?
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Australia54784 Posts
On June 18 2013 14:29 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2013 13:40 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 13:34 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 18 2013 13:28 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 13:19 Aeroplaneoverthesea wrote:On June 18 2013 11:24 Blackfeather wrote:On June 18 2013 08:27 TheDougler wrote:
Texted this to my buddy.
He called upon the ancient spirits of the Protoss and they answered him. The power of MC won him game one, then he channeled the avatar of HuK in game two to little avail. When all seemed lost in game three he asked parting for the answer and unto the stardust the champion thus spake: immortal sentry young one, all day, every day. "Even though all my opponent has is mutas? Questioned the budding nooblet." "Yes, young one." Answered the conductor. The immortal sentry will guide the way in the darkness, when all other lights are fungaled.
His hubris got the better of him in game four, where he turned against the gods and the spirit of July struck him down with a vengeance.
Having exhausted the spiritual energy of all of his forefathers but one he knew what to do.
"Inca guide me" he whispered couldnt have described it better, pretty awesome writeup. On June 18 2013 10:06 Faruko wrote:
This series reminds me why even if i watch dota 2 from time to time, SC its the king of eSports, so much tension you could not find anywhere else I have to say it was exactly the other way round for me. After the dh dota 2 finale with lots of interesting strategies, tactical decisions and two european teams in the final, i switched over to sc2 to see two koreans tossing a coin over and over again. 4 games, 5 all-ins, 4 successful. No great micro (tbh both slipped horribly over and over again), no great strategy, no superior decision-making just coinflip into coinflip. The only fact that i found interesting is that Stardust ignored "when behind, build dark shrine" and instead did it when he was ahead. On a side note: i agree that jaedong doesnt seem to understand the mu, he's playing zvz all the time. You might have a point if not for the racist part. what do you mean? if you are referring to the point that i (an European) can associate myself more with Swedish players than with Koreans, you just have to watch how the crowd at dh reacts every time a foreigner wins or go to a soccer-stadium, apparently i am not alone. I am not disrespecting them as humans and I didnt intend to say that Koreans are worse players than Europeans and just able to toss coins, i intended to say that pvz is horrible, that i prefer watching dota 2 and that it is usually easier for me to root for a team that is from an area close by than from an area far away. Saying that Dota 2 is a better game because Europeans can actually win is racist and stupid. Now you are twisting my statement, i didnt say that and never wanted to, I wanted to say that that influences my viewer-experience, not the quality of the game. I wanted to state why i prefer watching dota 2 over sc2 and part of that is the quality of the game and part of that is obviously the emotional part which comes from associating with a team and rooting for them. On June 18 2013 13:40 r691175002 wrote:
I see where you are coming from. Recently, a lot of high-level matchups feel very coinflippy.
Taeja vs Jaedong stands out as well. Jaedong clearly mindgamed taeja from in-house practice (knowing to wait for the depot, and then knowing Taeja will 3cc after tilting) but in both cases the players chose their builds blindly and then find out who wins 5 minutes later.
The Jaedong/stardust series was almost as bad. Look at the third hatch cancel into roach rush. Is there any really any way to scout that with standard play? I'm not seeing any viable skill-based counter-play once the builds are chosen.
I realize that scouting and controlling the information your opponent sees is a large part of playing SC2 but was it this bad in BW?
Some games are absolutely amazing, but sometimes you just get a 2rax, cannon rush, or roach/bane allin and a player just rolls because their scout was 2 hexes to the left. Volatility is not good.
I do not agree that dota2 is a better game. I played a lot of dota back in warcraft and greatly enjoyed it, but it really falls short nowadays, especially as a spectator sport. The amount of knowledge required to play or understand the game competitively is immense (you essentially must know the abilities of every hero, and their viable builds or you will just die without even realizing what the other player did). The game is also exceptionally unforgiving and the vast majority of teamfights last all of 5 seconds. I agree that dota 2 needs vast amounts of knowledge to understand the game fully, but that is to me also part of the fascination, because i have the feeling that there are two teams at work that are way better at understanding the game, whereas in sc2 i often had the feeling that the main reason why these guys are playing there and not me is that they are just way faster, at least at the time when i watched it a lot. I learn something from every dota game i watch, which is half the reason why i love watching it so much. But i agree that the basic knowledge needed to even understand what's going on is pretty much, which makes dota 2 quite the opposite to beginner friendly if you just watch it, so it definitely is less suitable for the mass. Fights in sc2 dont last for much longer and change less during the fight (less turnarounds etc) and sc2 is according to my experience even less forgiving. A missed forcefield can loose you the game even in bronce, a skill that is not perfectly used will hardly have any impact if everything else was right in dota 2 in the normal matchmaking. PS: i am tired, it's early in the morning and i am going to bed now. I might restructure the text later on, when i am fully awake and aware what i am typing. So your favourite players are all the white guys?
chill dude, does it matter
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