EPTOn June 07 2013 15:35 ETisME wrote:
I thought the argument went nicely until you posted this lol post
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2013 15:26 GTPGlitch wrote:
You can save money and larva just like zerg does every time they are building a specific tech (mutas, infestors, corruptors, ultras, roaches, banelings....) and then mass build them just like zerg does every time they are building a specific tech. Scan doesn't show you what eggs are building (if they do, please show me where you get your hacks).
Okay, i can see eggs. What now?
Okay, i see two or three queens laying creep. What now?
Okay, i see a queen at every base. This isn't standard?
Counting gas and gas timings are possible until zerg has units (of course, you could use every scan on zerg bases every time you have a scan available, and then you have even less money for the defense you may or may not need).
Okay, they took a third base a minute late. Are they playing extra safe or extra aggressive? Are they getting the third late because they took a fast lair and went for mutas? Are they getting the third late because they took a fast lair and went for nydus? Are they getting the third late because they took a fast lair and went for roach/baneling?
On June 07 2013 15:21 Emzeeshady wrote:
You can't build 35 Roaches in a minute. Bunkers don;t take very long to build, neither do mines. Survival tanks can be added on if the Terran bothers to scan.
On June 07 2013 15:19 GTPGlitch wrote:
Yeah, you see the 10 roaches and the rest are either on the way or done already and you have 40 seconds, a minute at best.
How is that hard to grasp?
On June 07 2013 15:18 Emzeeshady wrote:
What? See more then 10 Roaches and assuming that he isn't going Roach/Hydra you can guarantee that it is a Roach bust.
No one builds roaches vs Terrans with lategame intentions
On June 07 2013 15:16 GTPGlitch wrote:
Well you need the tanks and bunkers and marauders and mines to defend an allin that you can't scout until you have like 40 seconds until it hits, and you need a third if you don't want to die at 12 minutes instead of 10
On June 07 2013 15:12 ymir233 wrote:
I don't exactly get why Terrans want tanks AND mines AND medivacs AND bunkers AND a third base all at a reasonable time, but I'm fine with the ZvT matchup becoming 50/50 chance allins until hilarity ensues.
On June 07 2013 15:01 GTPGlitch wrote:
1) See roach warren-build tanks or pray it's for hellion defense. Larva means you don't know an allin is coming until it's done producing. You don't see what eggs are building until it's done, and crossmap distances mean you get one, MAYBE two tanks out by the time the allin hits.
2) If you don't get upgrades+3CC fast, you are going to be on equal ground in the time when terran needs to do damage instead of ahead, which reduces the ability to do damage and in turn reduces chances of victory the longer the game goes on.
3) Building tanks, marauders, mines, and bunkers is also forgoing a shitload of tech and economy, and if you start it when you see the first roach come out you don't know if the zerg is just making a few for defense or if it's actually an allin. Delaying your third until after you have multiple tanks is also dumb because tanks delay tech to mine/medivac really hard and without gasses 5/6 it becomes a massive block. Can't afford medivacs on 2base going mine/marauder/tank/bunker, so drop play isn't actually effective because it happens just as well as mutas do.
On June 07 2013 14:54 Emzeeshady wrote:
Yeah, because that was what was wrong with your post...
First of all they don't have to blindly build tanks. The second a Terran sees the Zerg committing to Roaches they can go for them knowing that the Zerg is going to be very aggressive. No one builds roaches with the intention of heading to the lategame. Secondly the Terran doesn't have to get all those things at once. That is the greedy play we are talking about. The Zerg forgoes a shitload of tech and economy to do that attack so you don't need super fast ups and lots of bio. What you need are bunkers, tanks, widow mines and marauders. The Zerg forgoes Mutas so drop play is amazingly effective if the push is held off.
Also lings don't hard counter tanks, that is a stupid statement. With +1 mechanical tanks destroy lings.
On June 07 2013 14:47 GTPGlitch wrote:
[quote]
Oh yeah sure I mean I guess I just missed all those games where the pros did tank pushes in TvZ after 2010
[quote]
Oh yeah sure I mean I guess I just missed all those games where the pros did tank pushes in TvZ after 2010
Yeah, because that was what was wrong with your post...
First of all they don't have to blindly build tanks. The second a Terran sees the Zerg committing to Roaches they can go for them knowing that the Zerg is going to be very aggressive. No one builds roaches with the intention of heading to the lategame. Secondly the Terran doesn't have to get all those things at once. That is the greedy play we are talking about. The Zerg forgoes a shitload of tech and economy to do that attack so you don't need super fast ups and lots of bio. What you need are bunkers, tanks, widow mines and marauders. The Zerg forgoes Mutas so drop play is amazingly effective if the push is held off.
Also lings don't hard counter tanks, that is a stupid statement. With +1 mechanical tanks destroy lings.
1) See roach warren-build tanks or pray it's for hellion defense. Larva means you don't know an allin is coming until it's done producing. You don't see what eggs are building until it's done, and crossmap distances mean you get one, MAYBE two tanks out by the time the allin hits.
2) If you don't get upgrades+3CC fast, you are going to be on equal ground in the time when terran needs to do damage instead of ahead, which reduces the ability to do damage and in turn reduces chances of victory the longer the game goes on.
3) Building tanks, marauders, mines, and bunkers is also forgoing a shitload of tech and economy, and if you start it when you see the first roach come out you don't know if the zerg is just making a few for defense or if it's actually an allin. Delaying your third until after you have multiple tanks is also dumb because tanks delay tech to mine/medivac really hard and without gasses 5/6 it becomes a massive block. Can't afford medivacs on 2base going mine/marauder/tank/bunker, so drop play isn't actually effective because it happens just as well as mutas do.
I don't exactly get why Terrans want tanks AND mines AND medivacs AND bunkers AND a third base all at a reasonable time, but I'm fine with the ZvT matchup becoming 50/50 chance allins until hilarity ensues.
Well you need the tanks and bunkers and marauders and mines to defend an allin that you can't scout until you have like 40 seconds until it hits, and you need a third if you don't want to die at 12 minutes instead of 10
What? See more then 10 Roaches and assuming that he isn't going Roach/Hydra you can guarantee that it is a Roach bust.
No one builds roaches vs Terrans with lategame intentions
Yeah, you see the 10 roaches and the rest are either on the way or done already and you have 40 seconds, a minute at best.
How is that hard to grasp?
You can't build 35 Roaches in a minute. Bunkers don;t take very long to build, neither do mines. Survival tanks can be added on if the Terran bothers to scan.
You can save money and larva just like zerg does every time they are building a specific tech (mutas, infestors, corruptors, ultras, roaches, banelings....) and then mass build them just like zerg does every time they are building a specific tech. Scan doesn't show you what eggs are building (if they do, please show me where you get your hacks).
On June 07 2013 15:20 ymir233 wrote:
Because scanning, constant units near the opponent's front, counting queens, counting gas, gas timings, and third hatchery timings never work.
gj gj playing smart
On June 07 2013 15:16 GTPGlitch wrote:
Well you need the tanks and bunkers and marauders and mines to defend an allin that you can't scout until you have like 40 seconds until it hits, and you need a third if you don't want to die at 12 minutes instead of 10
On June 07 2013 15:12 ymir233 wrote:
I don't exactly get why Terrans want tanks AND mines AND medivacs AND bunkers AND a third base all at a reasonable time, but I'm fine with the ZvT matchup becoming 50/50 chance allins until hilarity ensues.
On June 07 2013 15:01 GTPGlitch wrote:
1) See roach warren-build tanks or pray it's for hellion defense. Larva means you don't know an allin is coming until it's done producing. You don't see what eggs are building until it's done, and crossmap distances mean you get one, MAYBE two tanks out by the time the allin hits.
2) If you don't get upgrades+3CC fast, you are going to be on equal ground in the time when terran needs to do damage instead of ahead, which reduces the ability to do damage and in turn reduces chances of victory the longer the game goes on.
3) Building tanks, marauders, mines, and bunkers is also forgoing a shitload of tech and economy, and if you start it when you see the first roach come out you don't know if the zerg is just making a few for defense or if it's actually an allin. Delaying your third until after you have multiple tanks is also dumb because tanks delay tech to mine/medivac really hard and without gasses 5/6 it becomes a massive block. Can't afford medivacs on 2base going mine/marauder/tank/bunker, so drop play isn't actually effective because it happens just as well as mutas do.
On June 07 2013 14:54 Emzeeshady wrote:
Yeah, because that was what was wrong with your post...
First of all they don't have to blindly build tanks. The second a Terran sees the Zerg committing to Roaches they can go for them knowing that the Zerg is going to be very aggressive. No one builds roaches with the intention of heading to the lategame. Secondly the Terran doesn't have to get all those things at once. That is the greedy play we are talking about. The Zerg forgoes a shitload of tech and economy to do that attack so you don't need super fast ups and lots of bio. What you need are bunkers, tanks, widow mines and marauders. The Zerg forgoes Mutas so drop play is amazingly effective if the push is held off.
Also lings don't hard counter tanks, that is a stupid statement. With +1 mechanical tanks destroy lings.
On June 07 2013 14:47 GTPGlitch wrote:
Oh yeah sure I mean I guess I just missed all those games where the pros did tank pushes in TvZ after 2010
On June 07 2013 14:44 Emzeeshady wrote:
You really don't know anything about ZvT do you?
On June 07 2013 14:43 GTPGlitch wrote:
[quote]
Yeah no. "2-3 Tanks to defend" is also known as shooting yourself in the foot so you can't attack anything, and 52 scv's in 10 minutes is nothing compared to 80 drones on 3 bases with a fourth coming up, 2/2 done, hive and 3/3 on the way. You can't afford mines, tanks, upgrades, and bio at the same time, and tanks mean you can't put pressure on in TvZ because just zerglings hardcounter them so zerg sees the tanks and gets a free pass to do whatever until like 15:00 because the hardest attack that you'll face is like 6 hellions or 8 marine drop.
[quote]
Yeah no. "2-3 Tanks to defend" is also known as shooting yourself in the foot so you can't attack anything, and 52 scv's in 10 minutes is nothing compared to 80 drones on 3 bases with a fourth coming up, 2/2 done, hive and 3/3 on the way. You can't afford mines, tanks, upgrades, and bio at the same time, and tanks mean you can't put pressure on in TvZ because just zerglings hardcounter them so zerg sees the tanks and gets a free pass to do whatever until like 15:00 because the hardest attack that you'll face is like 6 hellions or 8 marine drop.
You really don't know anything about ZvT do you?
Oh yeah sure I mean I guess I just missed all those games where the pros did tank pushes in TvZ after 2010
Yeah, because that was what was wrong with your post...
First of all they don't have to blindly build tanks. The second a Terran sees the Zerg committing to Roaches they can go for them knowing that the Zerg is going to be very aggressive. No one builds roaches with the intention of heading to the lategame. Secondly the Terran doesn't have to get all those things at once. That is the greedy play we are talking about. The Zerg forgoes a shitload of tech and economy to do that attack so you don't need super fast ups and lots of bio. What you need are bunkers, tanks, widow mines and marauders. The Zerg forgoes Mutas so drop play is amazingly effective if the push is held off.
Also lings don't hard counter tanks, that is a stupid statement. With +1 mechanical tanks destroy lings.
1) See roach warren-build tanks or pray it's for hellion defense. Larva means you don't know an allin is coming until it's done producing. You don't see what eggs are building until it's done, and crossmap distances mean you get one, MAYBE two tanks out by the time the allin hits.
2) If you don't get upgrades+3CC fast, you are going to be on equal ground in the time when terran needs to do damage instead of ahead, which reduces the ability to do damage and in turn reduces chances of victory the longer the game goes on.
3) Building tanks, marauders, mines, and bunkers is also forgoing a shitload of tech and economy, and if you start it when you see the first roach come out you don't know if the zerg is just making a few for defense or if it's actually an allin. Delaying your third until after you have multiple tanks is also dumb because tanks delay tech to mine/medivac really hard and without gasses 5/6 it becomes a massive block. Can't afford medivacs on 2base going mine/marauder/tank/bunker, so drop play isn't actually effective because it happens just as well as mutas do.
I don't exactly get why Terrans want tanks AND mines AND medivacs AND bunkers AND a third base all at a reasonable time, but I'm fine with the ZvT matchup becoming 50/50 chance allins until hilarity ensues.
Well you need the tanks and bunkers and marauders and mines to defend an allin that you can't scout until you have like 40 seconds until it hits, and you need a third if you don't want to die at 12 minutes instead of 10
Because scanning, constant units near the opponent's front, counting queens, counting gas, gas timings, and third hatchery timings never work.
gj gj playing smart
Okay, i can see eggs. What now?
Okay, i see two or three queens laying creep. What now?
Okay, i see a queen at every base. This isn't standard?
Counting gas and gas timings are possible until zerg has units (of course, you could use every scan on zerg bases every time you have a scan available, and then you have even less money for the defense you may or may not need).
Okay, they took a third base a minute late. Are they playing extra safe or extra aggressive? Are they getting the third late because they took a fast lair and went for mutas? Are they getting the third late because they took a fast lair and went for nydus? Are they getting the third late because they took a fast lair and went for roach/baneling?
I thought the argument went nicely until you posted this lol post
xD sometimes I don't think very well
