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[MLG] Day 3 Winter Championship - Page 569

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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The usual: Don't flame casters or players. Don't discuss balance in this or any LR thread. Don't call your fellow posters idiots. Be excited, happy and entertained.
THM
Profile Joined November 2010
Bulgaria1131 Posts
March 18 2013 17:05 GMT
#11361
Blizzard please don't make balance changes until we see more!
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 17:17:50
March 18 2013 17:17 GMT
#11362
On March 19 2013 01:55 WigglingSquid wrote:
Are there HD vods for Flash vs Innovation game 2? The only ones listed on MLG are low quality.


Sure, but you need an MLG subscription.
Incomplet
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United Kingdom1419 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 17:20:54
March 18 2013 17:20 GMT
#11363
On March 19 2013 01:55 WigglingSquid wrote:
Are there HD vods for Flash vs Innovation game 2? The only ones listed on MLG are low quality.


Thinking the same thing...net cut out right before the Finals, and I was raging so hard I couldn't sleep properly knowing the finals were going on! Then I pop on the MLG website for the VODS and they are all terrible quality...

edit/ nvm answered above
Bow down to the sons of Aiur...SKT1_Rain, CreatorPrime, ST_Parting, Liquid_Hero.
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3393 Posts
March 18 2013 17:30 GMT
#11364
I don't think Flash realized how much of a hard counter mass banes are to mass rines. Can't run over your opponents with just macro anymore, have to think about those unit compositions...
Havik_
Profile Joined November 2011
United States5585 Posts
March 18 2013 17:48 GMT
#11365
On March 19 2013 02:05 THM wrote:
Blizzard please don't make balance changes until we see more!



There should be no balance changes until after the first Hots GSL, which ends in mid May. Changing anything after this tournament would be just stupid. If they want to test things on the PTR though, that's fine.
"An opinion is only as good as the evidence that backs it up."- William O'Malley, S.J.
CosmicSpiral
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States15275 Posts
March 18 2013 17:54 GMT
#11366
On March 19 2013 01:19 DODswe4 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:33 TimENT wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On March 19 2013 00:20 TimENT wrote:
If this tournament told us anything about balance, it's that NOTHING should be done for a while.

Widow mines v Z - Life was able to go ling baneling mutalisk against bio/mine. His mutalisks with good map control were able to stop speedvacs. Bio/mine definitely needs another few months of high level play.

Speedvacs v P - We saw MC basically destroy drop play with early Oracle harassment followed by 6 Phoenix to stop drops. He actually made TvP look P favored. Let's give speedvacs another few months as well.

Oracles v T - Obviously this is an extremely unexplored unit. MC showed us that Oracles can murder ill-prepared Ts. Please let the game unfold over the next few months.

Void rays in PvP - They really seem to dominate PvP at the moment. Not sure what else needs to be said here.

Overall, HotS is at a great place right now. Basically all the matchups are insanely fast paced and entertaining. The better player seems to win, regardless of 'OP' units. I'd really like to see Blizz leave the game alone for the next GSL, OSL, and Proleague. Except for maybe void rays. I'd also like to see Blizz do something about Corruptors and Void Rays. These units are extremely boring to watch as a spectator. If they were made to be extremely entertaining and micro-able like the new units/abilities like Vipers, Reapers, Speedvacs, Widow Mines, Mamacore, and Oracles.

I really believe that we are close to something Epic here. I daresay we are approaching a more fast paced BW. A few changes and we'll be there.

As for the tournament: Innovation really blew my mind in this tournament. I don't think he made a single mistake vs Leenock or Rain. His second game vs Flash was the most amazing thing I've seen in SC2. People really need to pay attention to how perfectly he played that game. And I mean PERFECT. I also think he was nervous vs Flash which is why he lost his tanks in game 3 and lost the medivac in game 4. I honestly believe if he overcame his nerves he could have beaten Flash 3-0 and Life 4-0. His 9 games prior to game 1 vs Flash he played the most flawless SC2 I think we have ever seen.


But he didn't, so boo-hoo.


Lol it's okay, my 3 favorite players were top 3 here.


I only wish Polt didn't meet Life in Round 2. He could've made it to semi-finals at least.


this mlg was quite stacked with good players. many who went out early could have made it to the semifinals


Pretty much. In any single-elimination tournament there's a significant amount of luck in just getting the right opponents. If Flash and Life were on the same side of the bracket, it's likely we would be talking about MLG Champion Flash.
WriterWovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
WigglingSquid
Profile Joined August 2011
5194 Posts
March 18 2013 17:59 GMT
#11367
On March 19 2013 02:17 blackone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:55 WigglingSquid wrote:
Are there HD vods for Flash vs Innovation game 2? The only ones listed on MLG are low quality.


Sure, but you need an MLG subscription.

I have the Twitch.tv one, but there are no VODs in their channel. I understand I should just roll over and give up?
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
March 18 2013 18:06 GMT
#11368
That's what you understand from what I wrote?
KuroYami
Profile Joined March 2013
United States6 Posts
March 18 2013 18:12 GMT
#11369
This is my analysis to the Flash vs Life series and reply to the many opinions of why Flash lost some the games. Sorry for the horrible writing, really bad at it.

Flash played a little sloppy in this series (e.g. not raising depot, losing scvs in early game, as well as some micro mistakes) but most of all in the first game (perhaps on purpose since his apm was low but his positioning kept Life constantly using more energy then you should in a long series).

Really Flash lost due to lack of map vision, had he split his hellions and dropped a scan in Life's base he would have either seen the army itself or inferred it from the tech and lack of army at the natural/main and wouldn't have moved out/ made defense (he did this in game one as well as the Korean launch event).

Minorly, Flash did not abuse drops in the ealry-mid game ( Life had few or no mutas, again a simple scan and hellion splits would have confirmed this) in those games.

Alot of people sugested tanks. Tanks would have been very usefull against the busts that Life executed but would have fallen against Life's super mobile force in the late midgame/ late game as well as sacrificing the number of medivacs, disabling drop play during its most "abusive" timings (which he didn't use anyways but ). Also, with Flash's fast 3cc tanks would have been delayed or in fewer numbers and a fast 3cc is a much bigger advantage. Mines are far more effective.

Flash could have also made a map control grab pre-muta with viking-mine in games 3/4 since he decided not to utilize drops heavily.

In response to fast 3ccbeing the problem: Flash expo timings were totally reasonable, fast 3cc worked flawlessly from the eco standpoint but depends strongly on scouting and map vision.

Overall, game 2 was lost due to micro mistakes, and game 4/5 to lack of scan and hellion splits as well as the lack of utilization of either early drops or viking-mine in the early-midgame.

The style Flash played depends on:
-Strong eco, especially into the the late-midgame (fast 3cc)
-map control or phenomonal map vision (hellion split or viking-mine).
-scan or mid-game scout of tech and for anyone but a pro player of code S caliber: multiple scouts (scan or very early viking/drop)
Tactically:
-medium to heavy drop play (need to micro each drop intensivley too.
-heavily split army with many hit squads pressuring while dropping ,these exist to add pressure that is not muta counterable {since they are ground} but mutas will be sent to deal with anyways (Life's mistake), making drops more effective. Also, very effective against ultras, brood lords a different story. (the small 6-12 marine/maruader GROUND pushes at 1-3 locations, use to great success in other Flash games killing bases all over the place)
Mechanically:
-250 plus "acutual" multitasking apm
-phenomonal macro
-good micro


Flash played a lot better at the korean launch event ( the screwed wall at the third was in fact a bait not a mistake but should have been fixed after the ?second? attempted run by.)
KuroYami
Profile Joined March 2013
United States6 Posts
March 18 2013 18:21 GMT
#11370
On March 18 2013 22:58 Irre wrote:
Absolutely loved this MLG. I think HotS is looking great the top 4 players at that tournament definitely came in top 4. Life and Flash played just insanely well throughout. I think Flash needs to have more up his sleeve in TvZ, that was his downfall, but Life's timings were really difficult to stop. I think both Polt, Innovation and Last showed better overall TvZ, but flash was better mechanically than them (well at least polt and last), so he will eventually get there. MC also showed a lot of early good ideas and builds to keep Terran on their toes in the early game, and I think in GSL you are going to see a lot of innovation coming from the protoss and zergs pretty quick. Overall, HotS really is a big step up from WoL, mechanics seem to really mean a lot more and the better players will win more of the time. Less randomness may be a downfall for foreigners who are lacking that, but as a fan of the game I think the result is better. All Korean games sunday and the viewership was very strong, we don't have anything to worry about!

As for MLG feedback:
Overall amazing event just based on the games and player lineup. I think it was good to have some foreigners in there in the early stages even if their results didn't pan out well. It at least drew more of a crowd to start and then let them fall in love with the game from there. Based on the all Korean sunday numbers it seemed to have been a positive. The venue looked cool and the lighting and camera shots came out pretty well, a little delayed but whatever. Observing was pretty damn good all weekend. The interviews were pretty good, Anna tried her best but I feel maybe too many interviews of the same players over and over..we don't need to have a winners interview of the same player 5 times. Flash was probably getting sick of it lol!

I really hope that MLG tries to improve on the speed of series. The downtime between each game in the matches was probably extremely frustrating for the players, and it made Bo5 drag on for way too long. GSL does this much much better. Also, the analysis desk was overused. Day9 did provide some good insight here and there, but we really don't need to have a 5 minute analysis of every single game, especially when the game was pretty straightforward. This added to the downtime issue between games. Frustrating for the players I'm sure.

I think the casting/analysis was subpar. Day9 was actually fairly good analysis wise, but I did not enjoy the casting. It was very tailored to noobies and fanboys rather than actual gameplay. Axeltoss/Axslav was not a great pairing. Day9 Husky was ok for what it was, but the substance was kind of meh and at times it was just so loud and the anti terran bias was just fueling the flames so hard. TotalBiscuit is very professional, and Incontrol has great knowledge. I think they could have been GREAT, but they spent so much time trying to be "funny" and pander to the live crowd that they missed out a lot on substance. I hope that all parties try to improve, and give more of a balance between substance/entertainment.

I rarely say this, but holy crap Blizzard you did such an amazing job with the game. I hope this continues and I hope they will learn from WoL and let things play out. It seemed to be widely accepted in our community that the game was quite imbalanced, but the best players in the world came in and basically completely disproved that. There were little to no upsets, the best players won. Cannot wait for GSL.


TBH one is either a "noob or fanboy" or someone who doesn't need in depth analysis to undersand and enjoy the game.The level of casting fit perfectly between these 2 catogories, giving those who are neither a good amount of analysis while still providing an entertaining cast for the rest. Also alot if these series were very multi-task oriented to the point where the casters had to be observers too ,taxing their abiltiy to provided on spot casting.
KuroYami
Profile Joined March 2013
United States6 Posts
March 18 2013 18:37 GMT
#11371
[B]On March 19 2013 00:20 TimENT
As for the tournament: Innovation really blew my mind in this tournament. I don't think he made a single mistake vs Leenock or Rain. His second game vs Flash was the most amazing thing I've seen in SC2. People really need to pay attention to how perfectly he played that game. And I mean PERFECT. I also think he was nervous vs Flash which is why he lost his tanks in game 3 and lost the medivac in game 4. I honestly believe if he overcame his nerves he could have beaten Flash 3-0 and Life 4-0. His 9 games prior to game 1 vs Flash he played the most flawless SC2 I think we have ever seen.

I think after seeing the gsl and now mlg innovation series, innovation is the single strongest Terran player in the world right now. His play in his gsl series was probably the most sophisticated play i have ever seen in sc2.
snakeeyez
Profile Joined May 2011
United States1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 18:56:03
March 18 2013 18:55 GMT
#11372
On March 19 2013 03:37 KuroYami wrote:
Show nested quote +
[B]On March 19 2013 00:20 TimENT
As for the tournament: Innovation really blew my mind in this tournament. I don't think he made a single mistake vs Leenock or Rain. His second game vs Flash was the most amazing thing I've seen in SC2. People really need to pay attention to how perfectly he played that game. And I mean PERFECT. I also think he was nervous vs Flash which is why he lost his tanks in game 3 and lost the medivac in game 4. I honestly believe if he overcame his nerves he could have beaten Flash 3-0 and Life 4-0. His 9 games prior to game 1 vs Flash he played the most flawless SC2 I think we have ever seen.

I think after seeing the gsl and now mlg innovation series, innovation is the single strongest Terran player in the world right now. His play in his gsl series was probably the most sophisticated play i have ever seen in sc2.


I heard innovation had one of the highest win rates on the korean ladder. I would agree though even though innovation lost to flash I think innovation is clearly one of the best terrans right now I think as good as mvp or say flash. I wonder how he would have done verse life in the final
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 19:03:09
March 18 2013 19:02 GMT
#11373
On March 19 2013 03:55 snakeeyez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 03:37 KuroYami wrote:
[B]On March 19 2013 00:20 TimENT
As for the tournament: Innovation really blew my mind in this tournament. I don't think he made a single mistake vs Leenock or Rain. His second game vs Flash was the most amazing thing I've seen in SC2. People really need to pay attention to how perfectly he played that game. And I mean PERFECT. I also think he was nervous vs Flash which is why he lost his tanks in game 3 and lost the medivac in game 4. I honestly believe if he overcame his nerves he could have beaten Flash 3-0 and Life 4-0. His 9 games prior to game 1 vs Flash he played the most flawless SC2 I think we have ever seen.

I think after seeing the gsl and now mlg innovation series, innovation is the single strongest Terran player in the world right now. His play in his gsl series was probably the most sophisticated play i have ever seen in sc2.


I heard innovation had one of the highest win rates on the korean ladder. I would agree though even though innovation lost to flash I think innovation is clearly one of the best terrans right now I think as good as mvp or say flash. I wonder how he would have done verse life in the final


Life would have been in a lot of trouble.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, holy shit, Life would still own face; but I think the series wouldn't have been as easy for Life.
AdministratorBreak the chains
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
March 18 2013 19:16 GMT
#11374
On March 19 2013 01:46 KingDime wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2013 01:23 blackone wrote:
That's the tough part of single elim. You can be the second best player, if you meet the best one in the first round, you have the same result as the worst player. A single elimination tournament doesn't really say a lot about anyone who didn't win it all.


That is an issue with a lack of a seeding system, not a single elimination tournament. Top seeds usually are in the opposite side of the bracket with third and fourth taking the other quarters. Also they should receive relatively easy rounds initially.

if you look at MLG bracket there was a seeding system. life is 1 seed, leenock 2. flash and bomber were 3/4 seed
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
March 18 2013 20:42 GMT
#11375
My favourite part of this tournament was Life making the Abathur face
plasemeious
Profile Joined November 2009
United States244 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 20:53:30
March 18 2013 20:49 GMT
#11376
On March 19 2013 01:40 Anchen wrote:
I hope jaedong takes a look at what life did this tournament instead of stephano. I don't know if jaedong still has it in him but the aggressive mechanics orientated strategies involving kings names mutas into powerful late games while microing nearly perfectly is very much what I remember of the tyrant in bw. I hope if he emulates someone or adapts someone's game it will be life and not stephano as it had been.

On the other hand I feel like flash vs life is looking like a great rivalry. In many ways I'm remind of flash vs jaedong except now flash is the elder and life is the young upstart. I hope flash has it in him to win some against life still.

Yeah I wish JD was better his mechanics are crazy when he streams. Anyone know where I can find Innovation vs Leenock? I didn't see it on MLG page
Edit: Nvm found it
arkedos
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany1426 Posts
March 18 2013 21:07 GMT
#11377
When will the replays be relased or doesnt MLG relase any replays anymore?
love esports - hate homophobia
blackone
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany1314 Posts
March 18 2013 21:11 GMT
#11378
They don't, for quite some time now.
arkedos
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany1426 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 21:18:03
March 18 2013 21:12 GMT
#11379
On March 19 2013 06:11 blackone wrote:
They don't, for quite some time now.



Thats sad. Thats the bad thing about streaming and VoDs. You cant see the exact build orders in a VoD :/

Is there a site which is up to date with current replays ?

love esports - hate homophobia
opterown *
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Australia54784 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-18 21:18:25
March 18 2013 21:17 GMT
#11380
not releasing replays means that they can protect pro builds, which is probably more important than random masters players trying them out
ModeratorRetired LR Bonjwa
TL+ Member
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