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On March 04 2013 07:41 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:40 ceaRshaf wrote:
Minigun had tech, money, a recalled great army and 2 saturated bases. How was that an all in? People seem to forget that now toss can actually attack without either just winning the game or losing instantly. :/
No, you seem to have a problem understanding that the Immortal Sentry all-in has lost nothing from its strength, has only gained, but is no longer all-in. Even Protoss players admitted that it might be a bit too strong in WoL, but justified it saying Zerg's late game advantage made it fair that Protoss had such a strong all-in.
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edit: was being a bitch
User was warned for this post
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On March 04 2013 07:42 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:40 nomyx wrote:On March 04 2013 07:37 sitromit wrote:
Just think about how bad Minigun was with his control that game, and imagine that Forcefield, Time Warp, Recall combination in the hands of a Protoss who's actually good, like Parting. Rise of the Patch Protoss!? expansion toss. Kind of stupid how the MSc pops up with 3 abilities, no upgrade needed.
It's a hero unit :D
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United States97276 Posts
On March 04 2013 07:42 Loxley wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:38 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 04 2013 07:37 sitromit wrote:
Just think about how bad Minigun was with his control that game, and imagine that Forcefield, Time Warp, Recall combination in the hands of a Protoss who's actually good, like Parting. Artosis was talking about that recently. He sai dhe couldn't wait to see how devastating PartinG's immortal sentry all in will be with time warps Im so sad, I don't have the beta but every stream I watch has loads of widow mines, mothership cores, hellbats, boosting medvacs etc etc. And the only thing as a zerg player I see being used often is the speed upgrade for hydra's.. I won't whine about balance, just the fact i was really looking forward to use some new units in my mix. Early on, not late game (which I don't reach often).
I've seen zergs using swarmhosts and vipers effectively. vipers and Ultras in ZvT and swarmhosts in ZvP
oh sorry I didn't see you say specifically for early game
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United Kingdom12032 Posts
On March 04 2013 07:42 Loxley wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:38 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 04 2013 07:37 sitromit wrote:
Just think about how bad Minigun was with his control that game, and imagine that Forcefield, Time Warp, Recall combination in the hands of a Protoss who's actually good, like Parting. Artosis was talking about that recently. He sai dhe couldn't wait to see how devastating PartinG's immortal sentry all in will be with time warps Im so sad, I don't have the beta but every stream I watch has loads of widow mines, mothership cores, hellbats, boosting medvacs etc etc. And the only thing as a zerg player I see being used often is the speed upgrade for hydra's.. I won't whine about balance, just the fact i was really looking forward to use some new units in my mix. Early on, not late game (which I don't reach often).
The thing is, with Hydras, Roaches and Lings (Hydras if you actually build a lair before you get your third base, which also isn't all in by the way) deal with pretty much all the early stuff on their own. There was nothing they could add to zerg which gives them anything new early game. It wasn't needed.
Terrans however needed better defense early game as opening mech vs toss was really hard to do and Protoss needed a way to attack with units without it being instantly all in as they left their bases.
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On March 04 2013 07:43 GoldenGun wrote:
Recall is soooooo imbalance. Toss will never get punished for all-in anymore.
Witch is good since zergs cannot expand and drone to death and worry only for an all in to win. Protoss now really has options. But I guess that is bad right?
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United States33594 Posts
report player bashing and balance whine so I can ban more ppl
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On March 04 2013 07:44 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:42 Loxley wrote:On March 04 2013 07:38 Shellshock1122 wrote:On March 04 2013 07:37 sitromit wrote:
Just think about how bad Minigun was with his control that game, and imagine that Forcefield, Time Warp, Recall combination in the hands of a Protoss who's actually good, like Parting. Artosis was talking about that recently. He sai dhe couldn't wait to see how devastating PartinG's immortal sentry all in will be with time warps Im so sad, I don't have the beta but every stream I watch has loads of widow mines, mothership cores, hellbats, boosting medvacs etc etc. And the only thing as a zerg player I see being used often is the speed upgrade for hydra's.. I won't whine about balance, just the fact i was really looking forward to use some new units in my mix. Early on, not late game (which I don't reach often). I've seen zergs using swarmhosts and vipers effectively. vipers and Ultras in ZvT and swarmhosts in ZvP
Yeah im not saying the new units suck or anything, (haven't played it yet). But it really doesnt belong to early game composition apparently.. Most of the Zerg games I see being streamed are exclusive WoL (upgraded) units.
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On March 04 2013 07:42 ROOTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:35 BlackPanther wrote:
That was fucking stupid. Minigun all-in'd and failed and he can just recall and save his army from annihilation. What a joke. it was a semi-allin because he didnt commit to the attack once he saw the hydras. fortunately idra doesnt have a brain so he didnt scout for a robo bay while the attack was going on, had he done that he could have teched to hive much sooner and would have had vipers out in time for his 2base collo allin. he assumed minigun was commiting to the immo allin so he kept making units blindly and got punished for it :[
he was making a spire.
And if it wasn't for recall he would of lost his whole army.
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On March 04 2013 07:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:37 AgentW wrote:On March 04 2013 07:36 ssg wrote:
Im a terran, but even that game made me cry for zerg. Wow. Me too. The failed two base all in with recall into 15 minute two base all in floating tons of money is kind of silly. No flank, but FF and colossus against roach hydra is still deadly. It wasn't an all in, it was a timing attack that forced units and he got away and started making probes again. There's no point making more probes than your bases can handle if you know you won't be expanding super fast. There are such things as 2 base attacks which are not all in. Not every game of Starcraft where one person has a later 3rd base is an all in. Recall makes Toss able to attack and still get away without having to lose everything. That's good for the game. Idra had tons of units which he did nothing with. He could have contained toss, but nope he ran back to his bases for no reason.
I agree that it wasn't an all in, and I think that that demonstrates a problem with recall. Without recall, he probably would have lost all of his units after the failed push, which would have basically forced him into an all in. However, with recall, he could easily switch back to probe production because very single unit from his first push was still alive.
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On March 04 2013 07:42 SiguR wrote:
I don't think people understand. Idra had to cut everything to get out the units to stop the allin, which he crushed. but he didnt get to kill it off because of recall and from that point he wasn't able to transition into an anti death ball composition in time. His only chance was a good mid map engagement.
If he crushed it then he over committed to defense. Idra was ahead by over 40 supply at that point. When someone recalls it gives you time to mass more units. If you don't know another push is coming and aren't already transitioning then you fail.
Everyone knows what is coming, the fact that he over committed to stop the first push is totally on him.
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 04 2013 07:45 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:42 ROOTT1 wrote:On March 04 2013 07:35 BlackPanther wrote:
That was fucking stupid. Minigun all-in'd and failed and he can just recall and save his army from annihilation. What a joke. it was a semi-allin because he didnt commit to the attack once he saw the hydras. fortunately idra doesnt have a brain so he didnt scout for a robo bay while the attack was going on, had he done that he could have teched to hive much sooner and would have had vipers out in time for his 2base collo allin. he assumed minigun was commiting to the immo allin so he kept making units blindly and got punished for it :[ he was making a spire. And if it wasn't for recall he would of lost his whole army.
Idra made a spire when 3 colossi were killing all his hydras, roaches and lings. None of which you want vs colossi.
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United States97276 Posts
On March 04 2013 07:45 Waxangel wrote:
report player bashing and balance whine so I can ban more ppl
Will you be attending the Stephano vs Lure match LR? probably your best shot at bans today if Lure pulls it off
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United Kingdom12032 Posts
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On March 04 2013 07:46 pak150 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:39 Qikz wrote:On March 04 2013 07:37 AgentW wrote:On March 04 2013 07:36 ssg wrote:
Im a terran, but even that game made me cry for zerg. Wow. Me too. The failed two base all in with recall into 15 minute two base all in floating tons of money is kind of silly. No flank, but FF and colossus against roach hydra is still deadly. It wasn't an all in, it was a timing attack that forced units and he got away and started making probes again. There's no point making more probes than your bases can handle if you know you won't be expanding super fast. There are such things as 2 base attacks which are not all in. Not every game of Starcraft where one person has a later 3rd base is an all in. Recall makes Toss able to attack and still get away without having to lose everything. That's good for the game. Idra had tons of units which he did nothing with. He could have contained toss, but nope he ran back to his bases for no reason. I agree that it wasn't an all in, and I think that that demonstrates a problem with recall. Without recall, he probably would have lost all of his units after the failed push, which would have basically forced him into an all in. However, with recall, he could easily switch back to probe production because very single unit from his first push was still alive.
How long does it take for recall to take you back home? 3 in-game seconds? 2?
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On March 04 2013 07:43 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:41 Qikz wrote:On March 04 2013 07:40 ceaRshaf wrote:
Minigun had tech, money, a recalled great army and 2 saturated bases. How was that an all in? People seem to forget that now toss can actually attack without either just winning the game or losing instantly. :/ No, you seem to have a problem understanding that the Immortal Sentry all-in has lost nothing from its strength, has only gained, but is no longer all-in. Even Protoss players admitted that it might be a bit too strong in WoL, but justified it saying Zerg's late game advantage made it fair that Protoss had such a strong all-in.
AKA bad design justifying bad design 
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 04 2013 07:46 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:45 Waxangel wrote:
report player bashing and balance whine so I can ban more ppl Will you be attending the Stephano vs Lure match LR? probably your best shot at bans today if Lure pulls it off
Oh that's true, Lure has great PvZ
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On March 04 2013 07:45 grush57 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:42 ROOTT1 wrote:On March 04 2013 07:35 BlackPanther wrote:
That was fucking stupid. Minigun all-in'd and failed and he can just recall and save his army from annihilation. What a joke. it was a semi-allin because he didnt commit to the attack once he saw the hydras. fortunately idra doesnt have a brain so he didnt scout for a robo bay while the attack was going on, had he done that he could have teched to hive much sooner and would have had vipers out in time for his 2base collo allin. he assumed minigun was commiting to the immo allin so he kept making units blindly and got punished for it :[ he was making a spire. And if it wasn't for recall he would of lost his whole army.
ok.. cool? lol that has nothing to do with what i said
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On March 04 2013 07:46 pak150 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:39 Qikz wrote:On March 04 2013 07:37 AgentW wrote:On March 04 2013 07:36 ssg wrote:
Im a terran, but even that game made me cry for zerg. Wow. Me too. The failed two base all in with recall into 15 minute two base all in floating tons of money is kind of silly. No flank, but FF and colossus against roach hydra is still deadly. It wasn't an all in, it was a timing attack that forced units and he got away and started making probes again. There's no point making more probes than your bases can handle if you know you won't be expanding super fast. There are such things as 2 base attacks which are not all in. Not every game of Starcraft where one person has a later 3rd base is an all in. Recall makes Toss able to attack and still get away without having to lose everything. That's good for the game. Idra had tons of units which he did nothing with. He could have contained toss, but nope he ran back to his bases for no reason. I agree that it wasn't an all in, and I think that that demonstrates a problem with recall. Without recall, he probably would have lost all of his units after the failed push, which would have basically forced him into an all in. However, with recall, he could easily switch back to probe production because very single unit from his first push was still alive.
Would making recall take longer from cast to warping back to base fix this problem? Perhaps twice the time or something?
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On March 04 2013 07:46 pak150 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2013 07:39 Qikz wrote:On March 04 2013 07:37 AgentW wrote:On March 04 2013 07:36 ssg wrote:
Im a terran, but even that game made me cry for zerg. Wow. Me too. The failed two base all in with recall into 15 minute two base all in floating tons of money is kind of silly. No flank, but FF and colossus against roach hydra is still deadly. It wasn't an all in, it was a timing attack that forced units and he got away and started making probes again. There's no point making more probes than your bases can handle if you know you won't be expanding super fast. There are such things as 2 base attacks which are not all in. Not every game of Starcraft where one person has a later 3rd base is an all in. Recall makes Toss able to attack and still get away without having to lose everything. That's good for the game. Idra had tons of units which he did nothing with. He could have contained toss, but nope he ran back to his bases for no reason. I agree that it wasn't an all in, and I think that that demonstrates a problem with recall. Without recall, he probably would have lost all of his units after the failed push, which would have basically forced him into an all in. However, with recall, he could easily switch back to probe production because very single unit from his first push was still alive.
Reminds me of TP scrolls from war3
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EPT
