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On October 05 2012 21:30 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:26 Vanadiel wrote:
Funny that everyone complain about Zerg lategame in ZvT, while the only zerg who advanced this week in GSL is the one that didn't try to go to lategame. In my opinion if Life had gone against a more cerebral player of the same caliber he would have had a tougher time, and probably would have lost.
Yeah agreed on that, I would love to be proven wrong but I don't believe that Life stand a chance against Taeja in Ro4 and that it's gonna be a quick 3-0. Anyway, I really don't understand sometimes, people complain about imbalance because of Symbol won with lategame, while he has been completely dominated in the same match up just few days ago ago by MVP, the only game he won was an all in.
Symbol is an amazing player, he should get credit for how he plays instead of bashing the balance of the game.
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On October 05 2012 21:39 Incomplet wrote:
I disagree about just because the pros aren't using ghosts, they aren't viable. The game evolves over time. A few months ago we never saw any hellion banshee openings, but now they are almost standard in tvz. Mind you neither unit was buffed recently, the meta game just changed. I think if pros used their ghosts more wisely, we could see a counter to Bl/infester. Look at the way some Protoss use their HT, they transport then around in warp prisms, keep them isolated from their main army for storm flanks etc. These type of tactics would be even easier to pull off because ghosts can cloak. Now look at how successful the Protoss are doing in Korea lately. Terran need to start thinking of new tactics.
Lol, do you realize that shift in meta you mentioned was due to the buff for queens... Which made any non all in pressure from Terran such as bio, bio/hellion not work... If you nerfing queens back again, you will see more hellion contains and bio pushes.
And you warp prism example doesn't work because of creep, which the Zerg hardly ever goes off of until they have killed the Terran army. You can blind side terrans with prism HT, much harder with drop ship ghosts. Plus terrans don't have a spell that can insta land and hold a prism in place.
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On October 05 2012 21:36 Mackus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:31 Grumbels wrote:On October 05 2012 21:23 mcmartini wrote:On October 05 2012 21:22 Mackus wrote:On October 05 2012 21:21 Grumbels wrote:
how about ghosts? nukes would have deterred symbol This was already answered by Taeja, a full Ultralisk transition will just outright destroy him People thought ghost were an option against infestor/brood after nerf? I thought that was always a troll haha you need two ghosts and two ghost academies in order to use nukes, it's not a "lol are you trolling???" question, it won't destroy your chances against ultra transitions. just because taeja answered with a oneliner about a specific situation doesn't invalidate the idea Well it does make Ghosts pointless, what are you meant to do with them once Ultralisks are out when it takes 22 snipes to kill 1 Ultralisk? My solution personally would be removing the Transfuse spell, it's complete utter bs running around with 6 queens with Full energy
you can use ghosts against infestors/queens also
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On October 05 2012 21:52 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:44 Killmouse wrote:On October 05 2012 21:40 sitromit wrote:On October 05 2012 21:31 S_SienZ wrote:
Reason you will always hear "The Terran was better" is because they managed to stay at the top despite not getting a single buff and only nerfs since launch.
Same reason why terms like Patch Zergs exist with no equivalent for T. Funny, I could swear seeker missile speed was increased in a patch not too long ago. But +2 range on the 8 dps ground attack of Queens makes a bigger difference in Broodlord Infestor lategame am I right? that patch never went live... u meant that http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359152but since terran started to win again, they didnt buff raven and nerfed creep You obviously know a lot about the game... I wasn't talking about that patch. Patch 1.4.0: Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. But OMG, Terran has only been nerfed.
u said
"not long ago"? that patch was long ago , more than 1 year
nice dodge
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On October 05 2012 21:55 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:52 sitromit wrote:On October 05 2012 21:44 Killmouse wrote:On October 05 2012 21:40 sitromit wrote:On October 05 2012 21:31 S_SienZ wrote:
Reason you will always hear "The Terran was better" is because they managed to stay at the top despite not getting a single buff and only nerfs since launch.
Same reason why terms like Patch Zergs exist with no equivalent for T. Funny, I could swear seeker missile speed was increased in a patch not too long ago. But +2 range on the 8 dps ground attack of Queens makes a bigger difference in Broodlord Infestor lategame am I right? that patch never went live... u meant that http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359152but since terran started to win again, they didnt buff raven and nerfed creep You obviously know a lot about the game... I wasn't talking about that patch. Patch 1.4.0: Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. But OMG, Terran has only been nerfed. u said "not long ago"? that patch was long ago , more than 1 year nice dodge
The game has been out for almost 3 years. I made it very specific what buff I was talking about, I said seeker missile speed. It was in response to a post whining about lategame, and claiming Terran had only received nerfs. When MVP was destroying Broodlords with Ravens not too long ago at IEM, I bet he wasn't complaining that seeker missiles were buffed to be faster.
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On October 05 2012 21:54 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:39 Incomplet wrote:
I disagree about just because the pros aren't using ghosts, they aren't viable. The game evolves over time. A few months ago we never saw any hellion banshee openings, but now they are almost standard in tvz. Mind you neither unit was buffed recently, the meta game just changed. I think if pros used their ghosts more wisely, we could see a counter to Bl/infester. Look at the way some Protoss use their HT, they transport then around in warp prisms, keep them isolated from their main army for storm flanks etc. These type of tactics would be even easier to pull off because ghosts can cloak. Now look at how successful the Protoss are doing in Korea lately. Terran need to start thinking of new tactics. Lol, do you realize that shift in meta you mentioned was due to the buff for queens... Which made any non all in pressure from Terran such as bio, bio/hellion not work... If you nerfing queens back again, you will see more hellion contains and bio pushes. And you warp prism example doesn't work because of creep, which the Zerg hardly ever goes off of until they have killed the Terran army. You can blind side terrans with prism HT, much harder with drop ship ghosts. Plus terrans don't have a spell that can insta land and hold a prism in place.
Which goes to show that Banshee hellion would have been even more viable before the queen buff, people weren't just doing it yet. Sorry but If people refuse to have more than 1 hot key for their army and split a few ghosts up for flanks when they already have cloak, then that's their own fault. You mentioned it's "much harder to use drop ships than warp prism" yes I'll give you that, but it's not impossible and certainly viable.
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On October 05 2012 22:03 Incomplet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:54 vthree wrote:On October 05 2012 21:39 Incomplet wrote:
I disagree about just because the pros aren't using ghosts, they aren't viable. The game evolves over time. A few months ago we never saw any hellion banshee openings, but now they are almost standard in tvz. Mind you neither unit was buffed recently, the meta game just changed. I think if pros used their ghosts more wisely, we could see a counter to Bl/infester. Look at the way some Protoss use their HT, they transport then around in warp prisms, keep them isolated from their main army for storm flanks etc. These type of tactics would be even easier to pull off because ghosts can cloak. Now look at how successful the Protoss are doing in Korea lately. Terran need to start thinking of new tactics. Lol, do you realize that shift in meta you mentioned was due to the buff for queens... Which made any non all in pressure from Terran such as bio, bio/hellion not work... If you nerfing queens back again, you will see more hellion contains and bio pushes. And you warp prism example doesn't work because of creep, which the Zerg hardly ever goes off of until they have killed the Terran army. You can blind side terrans with prism HT, much harder with drop ship ghosts. Plus terrans don't have a spell that can insta land and hold a prism in place. Which goes to show that Banshee hellion would have been even more viable before the queen buff, people weren't just doing it yet. Sorry but If people refuse to have more than 1 hot key for their army and split a few ghosts up for flanks when they already have cloak, then that's their own fault. You mentioned it's "much harder to use drop ships than warp prism" yes I'll give you that, but it's not impossible and certainly viable.
Not really. The reason banshee hellion is good now is because the Zerg meta is just building queens for defense. So hellion banshee is design to counter that. If queens all go to defend vs banshee, hellions run in. If queens get aggressive and go off creep, banshee could snipe them. However, the meta pre queen buff was more building spines and lings for hellion defense. And queens never chased hellions off creep since they would kited even on creep. If Zerg has spines and lings, they are perfectly fine with hellion banshee.
It is similar to how roach bane ling all ins seems to be more effective now even with no direct buffs. But many terrans builds go 3CC, thus make roach bane that much stronger.
As for viable, it is impossible to prove since no one seems to be able to do it at the top level. Maybe the top terrans have been practicing with it but haven't gotten comfortable enough with it yet. I am sure progamers of all races are trying out new things in practice, but unless they can refine it enough to be effective, they don't use it in important matches. Things like Mvp mech vs zerg has probably been in the works for a couple months. And might not even be by Mvp himself. Maybe IM terrans saw another Terran going mech and just tried to fine tune it.
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On October 05 2012 22:02 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:55 Killmouse wrote:On October 05 2012 21:52 sitromit wrote:On October 05 2012 21:44 Killmouse wrote:On October 05 2012 21:40 sitromit wrote:On October 05 2012 21:31 S_SienZ wrote:
Reason you will always hear "The Terran was better" is because they managed to stay at the top despite not getting a single buff and only nerfs since launch.
Same reason why terms like Patch Zergs exist with no equivalent for T. Funny, I could swear seeker missile speed was increased in a patch not too long ago. But +2 range on the 8 dps ground attack of Queens makes a bigger difference in Broodlord Infestor lategame am I right? that patch never went live... u meant that http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=359152but since terran started to win again, they didnt buff raven and nerfed creep You obviously know a lot about the game... I wasn't talking about that patch. Patch 1.4.0: Raven: Seeker missile movement speed increased from 2.5 to 2.953. But OMG, Terran has only been nerfed. u said "not long ago"? that patch was long ago , more than 1 year nice dodge The game has been out for almost 3 years. I made it very specific what buff I was talking about, I said seeker missile speed. It was in response to a post whining about lategame, and claiming Terran had only received nerfs. When MVP was destroying Broodlords with Ravens not too long ago at IEM, I bet he wasn't complaining that seeker missiles were buffed to be faster.
1) Game has barely been out two years actually.
2) Point out 1 buff out the tons of nerfs, especially a buff that really had no change on the meta whatsoever. Really great idea.
3) When MVP was destroying Brood Lords with Ravens it was on a very specific map in a very specific situation. Metropolis is the only map where you can do this because you can split it in half and use defensive planetaries. Besides, proper splitting mitigates this.
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On October 05 2012 21:39 Incomplet wrote:
I disagree about just because the pros aren't using ghosts, they aren't viable. The game evolves over time. A few months ago we never saw any hellion banshee openings, but now they are almost standard in tvz. Mind you neither unit was buffed recently, the meta game just changed. I think if pros used their ghosts more wisely, we could see a counter to Bl/infester. Look at the way some Protoss use their HT, they transport then around in warp prisms, keep them isolated from their main army for storm flanks etc. These type of tactics would be even easier to pull off because ghosts can cloak. Now look at how successful the Protoss are doing in Korea lately. Terran need to start thinking of new tactics.
the queen buff did nothing ... seriously almost all the major metagame shifts in WoL have been due to up/nerfs. People didn't misteriously discovered that infestors were good, they buff it... The mass ghost style or bfh openings were a rather cool exception but was nerf to death...
then you've smaller changes that can make a style viable (multiple banshees for mech) often related to a bigger change.
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On October 05 2012 22:37 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:39 Incomplet wrote:
I disagree about just because the pros aren't using ghosts, they aren't viable. The game evolves over time. A few months ago we never saw any hellion banshee openings, but now they are almost standard in tvz. Mind you neither unit was buffed recently, the meta game just changed. I think if pros used their ghosts more wisely, we could see a counter to Bl/infester. Look at the way some Protoss use their HT, they transport then around in warp prisms, keep them isolated from their main army for storm flanks etc. These type of tactics would be even easier to pull off because ghosts can cloak. Now look at how successful the Protoss are doing in Korea lately. Terran need to start thinking of new tactics. the queen buff did nothing ... seriously almost all the major metagame shifts in WoL have been due to up/nerfs. People didn't misteriously discovered that infestors were good, they buff it... The mass ghost style or bfh openings were a rather cool exception but was nerf to death... then you've smaller changes that can make a style viable (multiple banshees for mech) often related to a bigger change.
Agreed. The hellion banshee into mech is a counter to the queen -->ling/bling --> infestor--> broodlord zerg meta right now. It actually has a tough time against early muta builds since the terrans needs time to get Thors out. That is why Taeja was afraid of using it vs Leenock.
I am referring to going mutas before you can confirm mech. The mech build CAN deal with reactive muta builds since Thors/turrets will be up in time.
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I don't really see how terran can hoep to kill the bls/queen/infestor composition without ghosts. If I remember the lategame zerg was essentially making infestor/bls/corrupors and go with your queen. Now the zergs makes queen before hive, so they end up with ~10 queen with their push instead of 4-5. If they are full mana, it's 4000hp worth of healing (8 ultras  ). If the zerg don't screw up by engaging in a concave, I don't think you can reasonably hope to kill a good chunk of the death ball.
I bet that when the other zerg will catch up to the way leenock makes his bl pushes, you will see terrans try to EMP or snipe queens.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
ah, sad about prime
just letting you guys know i can't do mvp vs startale tomorrow, would appreciate if someone could =]
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On October 05 2012 23:35 kubiks wrote:I don't really see how terran can hoep to kill the bls/queen/infestor composition without ghosts. If I remember the lategame zerg was essentially making infestor/bls/corrupors and go with your queen. Now the zergs makes queen before hive, so they end up with ~10 queen with their push instead of 4-5. If they are full mana, it's 4000hp worth of healing (8 ultras ). If the zerg don't screw up by engaging in a concave, I don't think you can reasonably hope to kill a good chunk of the death ball. I bet that when the other zerg will catch up to the way leenock makes his bl pushes, you will see terrans try to EMP or snipe queens.
In order for ghosts to get in range with the queens/infestors without broodlings/your own tanks hitting them, you need to kill the detection first. If the zerg has more than 1 overseer in the army, that can be hard to do.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 05 2012 21:30 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2012 21:26 Vanadiel wrote:
Funny that everyone complain about Zerg lategame in ZvT, while the only zerg who advanced this week in GSL is the one that didn't try to go to lategame. In my opinion if Life had gone against a more cerebral player of the same caliber he would have had a tougher time, and probably would have lost.
If Life went against a different player, he would have played differently. That is the entire point of his style.
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It's crazy how good Symbol is ZvT and yet how badly MVP beat him in Ro8. TSL fighting!
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ITT zergs trying to justify infestor/broodlord
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United States97276 Posts
On October 05 2012 23:43 opterown wrote:
ah, sad about prime
just letting you guys know i can't do mvp vs startale tomorrow, would appreciate if someone could =]
I cant do it either because I have to be up early Saturday morning to drive a couple of hours so I dont want to be up all night. Can someone please do it? It's really easy. Opterown already premade the OP. You just have to add in players and maps
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
thanks dodgin you're a lifesaver
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EPT
