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On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting  !
Most of that was a pure build order win. If you didn't know already, stargate > robo. It would've meant much more if he didn't deflect that attack. Stats took a dumb gamble with the ninja expo. Half the probes he got were there so not much to micro. Normal protoss don't build all their shit outside of their base.
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On May 22 2012 17:41 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:39 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 17:31 xxpack09 wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 07:38 opterown wrote:Players must alternate between playing BW and SC2, so that means  Stats, Wooki,  Crazy-Hydra, great, Kal and Peace must play SC2 while Motive,  BarrackS, Flash, StarDust, Iris and firebathero must play BW. Any player can play in the Ace SC2 match.
so i didn't see a thread, but hey, thought i'd try my hand at this. took work off today so i should be able to cover it, at least until GSL starts. please help me! PL is very different to GSL so any help/feedback would be much appreciated it would be great if we could get a consistent thing going for SPL in SC2 forums! yay I there OP. I see no thread in the BW section TT so I thank you for doing this here, good job! I have a question though. Why do you have "Lizzy" in the results instead of Motive like you do in your second post? I think that even if the player is called lizzy on the ladder, his handle that kespa gives is motive so I believe your second post to be the correct one (one doesn't call MKP IIIIIIIII for instance). Or maybe they are actually two players? I just woke up so I dont know if lizzy and motive are two diff persons or if you just called the same person two names :p If it is just the same guy I vote for uniformization of Motive since that's what he is called officially. Other than that, good job with the OP  It's common for people to call players by a different name than their current KeSPA handle: For example from tonight: Stardust -> most people use M18M Goojila -> most people use Kal etc Completely different case. Both those players started with those handles and changed them "recently". People got to know them by their original nick names and when they changed, people didn't change the way they were called. Which makes sense. Motive is a new player who had never played a TV match for KT. He starts as Motive and if the cases of Kal, etc were to be followed he would be known as Motive despite using other handles in practice (Flash used a strange name whenever he played on public ladders, I cant exactly remember what was it TT but people didn't stop calling him Flash because of that =/ ). The thing is, your example made sense if it was the other way around, those two cases don't actually translate at all to the Motive case. Unless you argue that he was known way before his first TV match. Then the reverse of my argument applies yes. Then again Im used to people making their name in game and not in ladder because...well it was a different game. Still the way you presented your argument favours my point, but after writing this I see how the other argument of him being known before on ladder could surface so I'll avoid the subject from now on Thanks for the reply anyway. I think we all just like Lizzy more, at least that's my reason.
I don't :p lol...but ok I see I'm the exception here...so..lizzy it is.
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On May 22 2012 17:41 Irave wrote:
I don't get why people even feel inclined to compare the BW legends to sc2 pros. If you want legit good games in PL watch the BW and turn it off.
20% legit you mean. That's the ratio that most teams and players have admitted to in terms of SC2 : BW ratio.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50898 Posts
Barracks didn't play BW today so he can't play SC2 next game, HoeJJa will cover for him, no worries.
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On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting !
yes, it was could phoenix control. However, anyone who calls himself a progamer at sc2 is capable of that, especially against someone who doesnt quite yet seem to have a grasp of sc2
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On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)?
I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... Also the games that were listed he only played mostly dream league and preliminaries not even a single proleague appearance until now . So maybe kt has been putting him through sc2 for all this time ....
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On May 22 2012 17:44 ladyumbra wrote:
Not a bad game to end the day with, nice phoenix usage from Kal and actually decent forcefields from Stats. Somehow PvP is not the worst matchup when played by BW people. This is probably a good thing since I imagine we're going to see an awful lot of it in the coming months.
PvP being terrible is something that's a remnant from the 4gate days, but to be quite honest, that was almost a year ago. Nowadays we almost never see 4gates anymore because they simply don't work as well. PvP is an interesting and dynamic matchup that unfortunately can end with a single small mistake being made. Overall i think it's as interesting if not more interesting then ZvZ is.
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On May 22 2012 17:44 calvinL wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Most of that was a pure build order win. If you didn't know already, stargate > robo. It would've meant much more if he didn't deflect that attack. Stats took a dumb gamble with the ninja expo. Half the probes he got were there so not much to micro. Normal protoss don't build all their shit outside of their base.
True, the situation did somewhat facilitate kal's success with phoenixes. In that kind of position stats couldn't really afford to sit his units at his base, which led to some problems.
It's kind of like when marineking first introduced splitting in tvz in game one vs kyrix on shakuras plateau; it looked like he was kicking ass, but then it turns out he's also 4 upgrades ahead of the zerg on his bio because kyrix neglected his upgrades.
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On May 22 2012 17:47 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:44 ladyumbra wrote:
Not a bad game to end the day with, nice phoenix usage from Kal and actually decent forcefields from Stats. Somehow PvP is not the worst matchup when played by BW people. This is probably a good thing since I imagine we're going to see an awful lot of it in the coming months.
PvP being terrible is something that's a remnant from the 4gate days, but to be quite honest, that was almost a year ago. Nowadays we almost never see 4gates anymore because they simply don't work as well. PvP is an interesting and dynamic matchup that unfortunately can end with a single small mistake being made. Overall i think it's as interesting if not more interesting then ZvZ is.
well to be fair, collossus laser wars arent much more entertaining than 4gate
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On May 22 2012 17:43 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:43 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign". I haven't seen phoenix usage close to that. Not with <= 5 phoenixes, at least
He was certainly competent with Phoenixes but yeah it looked pretty normal. It is hard to get a sense of how good he is until he is playing a skilled opponent who isn't miles behind. There have been games where Toss go phoenix against terran(it was used as a counter to 111 back in the day) and have to try get damage done while dodging marines. Now that is impressive. As others said it was essentially a build order loss. A build order loss after already falling behind.
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On May 22 2012 17:43 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:43 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign". I haven't seen phoenix usage close to that. Not with <= 5 phoenixes, at least
Dude, even rotterdam (who isn't even an established pro) has better control with 5 phoenix.
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On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than...
It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous.
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On May 22 2012 17:50 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:43 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign". I haven't seen phoenix usage close to that. Not with <= 5 phoenixes, at least Dude, even rotterdam (who isn't even an established pro) has better control with 5 phoenix.
I saw his stream today; half the time they're sitting around, he doesn't kill any units and just scouts with them. Halfway into the game he runs half of them into the other guy's main army and they die. That was vs an EU silver leaguer, too.
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On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting !
Honestly, after spotting the robo that far from the main, most pros would have simply attacked for the win. Sure, his usage of the Phoenixes was good and helped cement the win, but truthfully, we can't really tell if it's miles ahead of any current SC2 pros simply because his opponent was bad and was already in a bad position.
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On May 22 2012 17:47 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:44 ladyumbra wrote:
Not a bad game to end the day with, nice phoenix usage from Kal and actually decent forcefields from Stats. Somehow PvP is not the worst matchup when played by BW people. This is probably a good thing since I imagine we're going to see an awful lot of it in the coming months.
PvP being terrible is something that's a remnant from the 4gate days, but to be quite honest, that was almost a year ago. Nowadays we almost never see 4gates anymore because they simply don't work as well. PvP is an interesting and dynamic matchup that unfortunately can end with a single small mistake being made. Overall i think it's as interesting if not more interesting then ZvZ is.
I agree, even tho recent ZvZ are pretty cool too. PvP has evolved well.
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On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous.
Well I think by the next season proleague teams can start buying gsl players already since they have the money to throw around .
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I honestly wish you people would stop judging Stats as bad. He played a bad game yes, but he isn't a bad player. You do realize Stats is KT's 2nd best player right? Do not listen to a commentator who had NO idea Kal was Goojila until the game almost ended.
Kal is still a member of the 6 dragons. Stats didn't just run into another random player who didn't have any accomplishments either.
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On May 22 2012 17:55 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous. Well I think by the next season proleague teams can start buying gsl players already since they have the money to throw around .
Not sure if good or bad idea in terms of promoting growth for the BW players. Definitely bad idea in terms of legitimacy of the competition.
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On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous.
What are you on about? No SC2 players "Jump Ship" Unless their contract runs out and they can't come to an agreement with their current team or their current team disbands.
I don't see why they shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't buy SC2 pros and/or coaches. That would be the best way for them to learn the game. As it stands now, they are learning the game on their own because they don't have anyone to look to and learn from...
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On May 22 2012 17:50 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:43 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign". I haven't seen phoenix usage close to that. Not with <= 5 phoenixes, at least Dude, even rotterdam (who isn't even an established pro) has better control with 5 phoenix.
You can't really judge Kespa players skill level in SC2 yet and people here are just sprouting bullshit . Rotterdam has better micro then Kal lol ... Kal not touching SC2 would still outmicro Rotterdam with every unit in the game . Guys get off your high horse , most of you don't know or can't play shit in SC2 and yet you are bashing BW pros just because they are new to the game .
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EPT
