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On May 22 2012 17:41 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:39 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 17:31 xxpack09 wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 07:38 opterown wrote:Players must alternate between playing BW and SC2, so that means  Stats, Wooki,  Crazy-Hydra, great, Kal and Peace must play SC2 while Motive,  BarrackS, Flash, StarDust, Iris and firebathero must play BW. Any player can play in the Ace SC2 match.
so i didn't see a thread, but hey, thought i'd try my hand at this. took work off today so i should be able to cover it, at least until GSL starts. please help me! PL is very different to GSL so any help/feedback would be much appreciated  it would be great if we could get a consistent thing going for SPL in SC2 forums! yay I there OP. I see no thread in the BW section TT so I thank you for doing this here, good job! I have a question though. Why do you have "Lizzy" in the results instead of Motive like you do in your second post? I think that even if the player is called lizzy on the ladder, his handle that kespa gives is motive so I believe your second post to be the correct one (one doesn't call MKP IIIIIIIII for instance). Or maybe they are actually two players? I just woke up so I dont know if lizzy and motive are two diff persons or if you just called the same person two names :p If it is just the same guy I vote for uniformization of Motive since that's what he is called officially. Other than that, good job with the OP  It's common for people to call players by a different name than their current KeSPA handle: For example from tonight: Stardust -> most people use M18M Goojila -> most people use Kal etc Completely different case. Both those players started with those handles and changed them "recently". People got to know them by their original nick names and when they changed, people didn't change the way they were called. Which makes sense. Motive is a new player who had never played a TV match for KT. He starts as Motive and if the cases of Kal, etc were to be followed he would be known as Motive despite using other handles in practice (Flash used a strange name whenever he played on public ladders, I cant exactly remember what was it TT but people didn't stop calling him Flash because of that =/ ). The thing is, your example made sense if it was the other way around, those two cases don't actually translate at all to the Motive case. Unless you argue that he was known way before his first TV match. Then the reverse of my argument applies yes. Then again Im used to people making their name in game and not in ladder because...well it was a different game. Still the way you presented your argument favours my point, but after writing this I see how the other argument of him being known before on ladder could surface so I'll avoid the subject from now on Thanks for the reply anyway. I think we all just like Lizzy more, at least that's my reason.
I think so too. Lizzy has so much more personality than Motive.
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On May 22 2012 18:02 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous. What are you on about? No SC2 players "Jump Ship" Unless their contract runs out and they can't come to an agreement with their current team or their current team disbands. I don't see why they shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't buy SC2 pros and/or coaches. That would be the best way for them to learn the game. As it stands now, they are learning the game on their own because they don't have anyone to look to and learn from...
Well, under the context or standard of any other competitive sport it would look like players are jumping ship because there isn't nearly the same level of transparency or formalized standard for the procedure of players switching teams because of a lack of a governing body, which is my point. News and updates and procedures have to come from informal or improvised statements from the players or coaches with no agenda and no coherency what so ever because of the lack of a standard procedure. I don't need to point to specific instances because it's been talked to death already.
Problem with buying SC2 pros and / or coaches is the legitimacy of the competition under this proleague structure of BW / SC2, obviously there wouldn't be a problem if this was just a SC2 tournament for reasons you've stated. We don't want to see games like Lizzy vs Canata today for this reason.
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On May 22 2012 18:04 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:50 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign". I haven't seen phoenix usage close to that. Not with <= 5 phoenixes, at least Dude, even rotterdam (who isn't even an established pro) has better control with 5 phoenix. You can't really judge Kespa players skill level in SC2 yet and people here are just sprouting bullshit . Rotterdam has better micro then Kal lol ... Kal not touching SC2 would still outmicro Rotterdam with every unit in the game . Guys get off your high horse , most of you don't know or can't play shit in SC2 and yet you are bashing BW pros just because they are new to the game .
Says the guy on his high horse. It wasn't a bash. The guy was saying his phoenix control was better than every existing pro when it was simply standard play from a player who was already insanely ahead. I pointed out someone who isn't even an established sc2 pro and used his phoenix in the same exact way (in the one game i saw).
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On May 22 2012 18:08 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:02 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous. What are you on about? No SC2 players "Jump Ship" Unless their contract runs out and they can't come to an agreement with their current team or their current team disbands. I don't see why they shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't buy SC2 pros and/or coaches. That would be the best way for them to learn the game. As it stands now, they are learning the game on their own because they don't have anyone to look to and learn from... Well, under the context or standard of any other competitive sport it would look like players are jumping ship because there isn't nearly the same level of transparency or formalized standard for the procedure of players switching teams because of a lack of a governing body, which is my point. News and updates and procedures have to come from informal or improvised statements from the players or coaches with no agenda and no coherency what so ever because of the lack of a standard procedure. I don't need to point to specific instances because it's been talked to death already. Problem with buying SC2 pros and / or coaches is the legitimacy of the competition under this proleague structure of BW / SC2, obviously there wouldn't be a problem if this was just a SC2 tournament for reasons you've stated. We don't want to see games like Lizzy vs Canata today for this reason.
So you would rather see shitty games for an extended period of time just for the sake of keeping PL "legitimate" in your eyes?
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On May 22 2012 18:11 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:08 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 18:02 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:
[quote]
Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous. What are you on about? No SC2 players "Jump Ship" Unless their contract runs out and they can't come to an agreement with their current team or their current team disbands. I don't see why they shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't buy SC2 pros and/or coaches. That would be the best way for them to learn the game. As it stands now, they are learning the game on their own because they don't have anyone to look to and learn from... Well, under the context or standard of any other competitive sport it would look like players are jumping ship because there isn't nearly the same level of transparency or formalized standard for the procedure of players switching teams because of a lack of a governing body, which is my point. News and updates and procedures have to come from informal or improvised statements from the players or coaches with no agenda and no coherency what so ever because of the lack of a standard procedure. I don't need to point to specific instances because it's been talked to death already. Problem with buying SC2 pros and / or coaches is the legitimacy of the competition under this proleague structure of BW / SC2, obviously there wouldn't be a problem if this was just a SC2 tournament for reasons you've stated. We don't want to see games like Lizzy vs Canata today for this reason. So you would rather see shitty games for an extended period of time just for the sake of keeping PL "legitimate" in your eyes?
What? I want to see BW players learning and developing their own meta game with out complete disparaties between the skill levels like Lizzy vs BByong or Lizzy vs Canata. Isn't that what SC2 fans / BW fans are looking for BW players to do? If BW players just played the same way as current SC2 pros then there wouldn't be the same level of excitement. Ofcourse I don't want to see bad quality SC2 games, but a transition is going to have to take place regardless, even if every team got SC2 players and coaches it would still take X amount of time for them to reach that level. We want X to be as short as possible obviously.
It's not even a matter of rather it's legitimate in my eyes as a fan, it's simply not a legitimate form of competition if players aren't given at least a basis of equality in terms of resources. It's as ridiculous as a high school basketball team buying Lebron James or Kobe Bryant to play for them, and saying that it's okay as long as other teams buy out other top players to keep it fair. When the logical conclusion is that the players on the high school basketball team are supposed to progress on their own through the high school / college / regional / national / NBA system.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On May 22 2012 18:05 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:41 Dodgin wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 17:31 xxpack09 wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 07:38 opterown wrote:Players must alternate between playing BW and SC2, so that means Stats, Wooki, Crazy-Hydra, great, Kal and Peace must play SC2 while Motive, BarrackS, Flash, StarDust, Iris and firebathero must play BW. Any player can play in the Ace SC2 match.
so i didn't see a thread, but hey, thought i'd try my hand at this. took work off today so i should be able to cover it, at least until GSL starts. please help me! PL is very different to GSL so any help/feedback would be much appreciated it would be great if we could get a consistent thing going for SPL in SC2 forums! yay I there OP. I see no thread in the BW section TT so I thank you for doing this here, good job! I have a question though. Why do you have "Lizzy" in the results instead of Motive like you do in your second post? I think that even if the player is called lizzy on the ladder, his handle that kespa gives is motive so I believe your second post to be the correct one (one doesn't call MKP IIIIIIIII for instance). Or maybe they are actually two players? I just woke up so I dont know if lizzy and motive are two diff persons or if you just called the same person two names :p If it is just the same guy I vote for uniformization of Motive since that's what he is called officially. Other than that, good job with the OP It's common for people to call players by a different name than their current KeSPA handle: For example from tonight: Stardust -> most people use M18M Goojila -> most people use Kal etc Completely different case. Both those players started with those handles and changed them "recently". People got to know them by their original nick names and when they changed, people didn't change the way they were called. Which makes sense. Motive is a new player who had never played a TV match for KT. He starts as Motive and if the cases of Kal, etc were to be followed he would be known as Motive despite using other handles in practice (Flash used a strange name whenever he played on public ladders, I cant exactly remember what was it TT but people didn't stop calling him Flash because of that =/ ). The thing is, your example made sense if it was the other way around, those two cases don't actually translate at all to the Motive case. Unless you argue that he was known way before his first TV match. Then the reverse of my argument applies yes. Then again Im used to people making their name in game and not in ladder because...well it was a different game. Still the way you presented your argument favours my point, but after writing this I see how the other argument of him being known before on ladder could surface so I'll avoid the subject from now on Thanks for the reply anyway. I think we all just like Lizzy more, at least that's my reason. I think so too. Lizzy has so much more personality than Motive.
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God, I hate new "ratings" section so much, I can't even express it))
Where is the old "Yes" "No" ???
It is much easier to judge out the value of the game since it has 3 parameters and not 5, where you also have to count stars!
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I'll be honest. I loved watching this.
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It's pretty amusing how everything in SC2 PL is either 'omg best thing ever', or 'no lol random goldies on ladder do it better'. I can't believe people arguing don't realize how ridiculous they sound.
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On May 22 2012 17:37 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. i agree that he sucks but the game was unwinnable after the initial attack failed just saying you should be saying him using a absolutely horrible build is just stupid and thats why he sucks, him engaging the bunkers and losing goons means nothing really no one could make that attack work you could say a zerg could triple expand after a failed 4pool but its still unwinnable in the same sense im just saying the build would have won against a CC first, same as 4pool wins against CC first. then what would people be saying? I STILL would be attacking lizzy for sucking in that situation, even if he won due to a CC first because it would have been a pure all-in fast BO win
2 gate goon is not even close to being the counter to 14CC. It's not stronger against 14CC than a standard 1 gate goon is. If you want to take down a 14 CC, then proxy Gateway with zealots is the way to go. The goons on your 2nd gateway doesn't arrive fast enough to deny the bunker. 2 gate goon is terrible and that pretty much sums it up. The only purpose of it is if you're attempting at delaying the CC in a Siege Expand (not really worth it), or taking down the bunker on a rax expand (which is what he was trying but failed to do). It's also strong when used defensively if you expect terran to be aggressive with a 2 factory build or something. But the opening is not even the main issue here. The main thing that he did wrong is the follow up. Canata was playing very safe, and there was no reason to even try and engage. Any protoss at iccup C rank or above would have canceled the push and either double expanded, or tried to shuttle the units over, or go for reavers. To make a Citadel of Adun at that point of the game just proves that he doesn't have a clue about timings. It's pretty obvious that Canata would have had turrets up in time to defend, and he already had a bunker. Bunker + turrets cancel out DT's completely. If he had went for DT drops, it would have been different, because then he wouldn't have to deal with the bunker, but it still would most likely not have worked since he had delayed his timings too much.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50632 Posts
On May 22 2012 18:17 letian wrote:God, I hate new "ratings" section so much, I can't even express it)) Where is the old "Yes" "No" ??? It is much easier to judge out the value of the game since it has 3 parameters and not 5, where you also have to count stars!
there are nicer ways of telling the OP that.
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On May 22 2012 17:26 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:23 xxpack09 wrote:
Hey sc2 knowledgable people, how does stargate tech go against robo? good? bad? Usually Stargate tech gives you good map control with the phoenixes. Just that the robo player can hit a timing when you have less units. Just that in this case it won't be happening because of how far behind Stats is.
Usually Stargate doesnt work against protoss unless your opponent has no idea about the game...
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On May 22 2012 18:25 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:26 pdd wrote:On May 22 2012 17:23 xxpack09 wrote:
Hey sc2 knowledgable people, how does stargate tech go against robo? good? bad? Usually Stargate tech gives you good map control with the phoenixes. Just that the robo player can hit a timing when you have less units. Just that in this case it won't be happening because of how far behind Stats is. Usually Stargate doesnt work against protoss unless your opponent has no idea about the game...
I've seen it work a couple of times in the GSL, they are rare and usually pretty strict timing pushes with lifts to kill the natural of the other protoss.
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On May 22 2012 18:04 raga4ka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:50 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign". I haven't seen phoenix usage close to that. Not with <= 5 phoenixes, at least Dude, even rotterdam (who isn't even an established pro) has better control with 5 phoenix. You can't really judge Kespa players skill level in SC2 yet and people here are just sprouting bullshit . Rotterdam has better micro then Kal lol ... Kal not touching SC2 would still outmicro Rotterdam with every unit in the game . Guys get off your high horse , most of you don't know or can't play shit in SC2 and yet you are bashing BW pros just because they are new to the game .
People bashing Kespa players are no worse than the other side which are making outlandish statements like "Best Phoenix use EVER (lol) and OMG his reactions are WAY better than MC!!" etc. If people are going to be sprouting such bullshit, you will get responses like the above.
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On May 22 2012 18:12 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:11 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 18:08 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 18:02 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:
[quote]
wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation
if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen
theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build
If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous. What are you on about? No SC2 players "Jump Ship" Unless their contract runs out and they can't come to an agreement with their current team or their current team disbands. I don't see why they shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't buy SC2 pros and/or coaches. That would be the best way for them to learn the game. As it stands now, they are learning the game on their own because they don't have anyone to look to and learn from... Well, under the context or standard of any other competitive sport it would look like players are jumping ship because there isn't nearly the same level of transparency or formalized standard for the procedure of players switching teams because of a lack of a governing body, which is my point. News and updates and procedures have to come from informal or improvised statements from the players or coaches with no agenda and no coherency what so ever because of the lack of a standard procedure. I don't need to point to specific instances because it's been talked to death already. Problem with buying SC2 pros and / or coaches is the legitimacy of the competition under this proleague structure of BW / SC2, obviously there wouldn't be a problem if this was just a SC2 tournament for reasons you've stated. We don't want to see games like Lizzy vs Canata today for this reason. So you would rather see shitty games for an extended period of time just for the sake of keeping PL "legitimate" in your eyes? What? I want to see BW players learning and developing their own meta game with out complete disparaties between the skill levels like Lizzy vs BByong or Lizzy vs Canata. Isn't that what SC2 fans / BW fans are looking for BW players to do? If BW players just played the same way as current SC2 pros then there wouldn't be the same level of excitement. Ofcourse I don't want to see bad quality SC2 games, but a transition is going to have to take place regardless, even if every team got SC2 players and coaches it would still take X amount of time for them to reach that level. We want X to be as short as possible obviously.
I honestly don't understand what you mean by this. No existing sc2 pro plays like the other. They all have their own unique style and are constantly coming up with new strategies changing the metagame. With pro help they would simply learn the game easier, learn timings, starting BO's, and develop new strategies based on the existing ones while bouncing these strategies off of someone with experience to help close the 2 year gap that they missed out on.
The way it stands now, it's like KeSPA just threw a bunch of bronze league players with GM mechanics in a room all by themselves and said "L2P or lose your mealticket because BW is OVER" Do you really expect bronze leaguers to learn the game properly and catch up to players (who have 2 years on them) with absolutely no outside help?
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On May 22 2012 18:25 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:26 pdd wrote:On May 22 2012 17:23 xxpack09 wrote:
Hey sc2 knowledgable people, how does stargate tech go against robo? good? bad? Usually Stargate tech gives you good map control with the phoenixes. Just that the robo player can hit a timing when you have less units. Just that in this case it won't be happening because of how far behind Stats is. Usually Stargate doesnt work against protoss unless your opponent has no idea about the game...
Stargate tech allowed Kal to do several things. He already knew Stats was far too behind at the moment to do much of anything. Stats only way to come back was a Hidden Expo/Expand, or a drop that does a lot of damage. Phoenix gave Kal map control, prevent any sort of expand, and defend against warp prism. He built it for a reason, not because he was curious on how Stargate and Pheonix works in SC2.
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On May 22 2012 18:29 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:12 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 18:11 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 18:08 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 18:02 Dosey wrote:On May 22 2012 17:51 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:46 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:43 Caihead wrote:On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:
[quote]
If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer.
This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning .... Posing? He's just bad. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/gamesEvery team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)? I guess there is no such thing as a fair game in the competitive arena than... It's only fair in the context of rules and regulations that are enforced with in the league system, everybody cries about KESPA's evil tyranny during its era of putting restrictions that pissed off fans, but we needed those. Look at how often teams / players jump ship or swap teams in the SC2 scene right now due to a lack of a regulatory body. This whole season is going to be venturing into new territories for the BW scene so I really hope rules get established fast about what the player and team structure is going to be, else BW players that aren't popular / don't immediately adapt to SC2 are going to get left in the sand or competition is going to be a farce with completely idiotic discrepancies in the skill level. I don't even see regulations against KESPA teams buying out current SC2 pro players, that would be ridiculous. What are you on about? No SC2 players "Jump Ship" Unless their contract runs out and they can't come to an agreement with their current team or their current team disbands. I don't see why they shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't buy SC2 pros and/or coaches. That would be the best way for them to learn the game. As it stands now, they are learning the game on their own because they don't have anyone to look to and learn from... Well, under the context or standard of any other competitive sport it would look like players are jumping ship because there isn't nearly the same level of transparency or formalized standard for the procedure of players switching teams because of a lack of a governing body, which is my point. News and updates and procedures have to come from informal or improvised statements from the players or coaches with no agenda and no coherency what so ever because of the lack of a standard procedure. I don't need to point to specific instances because it's been talked to death already. Problem with buying SC2 pros and / or coaches is the legitimacy of the competition under this proleague structure of BW / SC2, obviously there wouldn't be a problem if this was just a SC2 tournament for reasons you've stated. We don't want to see games like Lizzy vs Canata today for this reason. So you would rather see shitty games for an extended period of time just for the sake of keeping PL "legitimate" in your eyes? What? I want to see BW players learning and developing their own meta game with out complete disparaties between the skill levels like Lizzy vs BByong or Lizzy vs Canata. Isn't that what SC2 fans / BW fans are looking for BW players to do? If BW players just played the same way as current SC2 pros then there wouldn't be the same level of excitement. Ofcourse I don't want to see bad quality SC2 games, but a transition is going to have to take place regardless, even if every team got SC2 players and coaches it would still take X amount of time for them to reach that level. We want X to be as short as possible obviously. I honestly don't understand what you mean by this. No existing sc2 pro plays like the other. They all have their own unique style and are constantly coming up with new strategies changing the metagame. With pro help they would simply learn the game easier, learn timings, starting BO's, and develop new strategies based on the existing ones while bouncing these strategies off of someone with experience to help close the 2 year gap that they missed out on. The way it stands now, it's like KeSPA just threw a bunch of bronze league players with GM mechanics in a room all by themselves and said "L2P or lose your mealticket because BW is OVER" Do you really expect bronze leaguers to learn the game properly and catch up to players (who have 2 years on them) with absolutely no outside help?
But they aren't bronze leaguers, they are BW progamers with professional help from their existing coaching staff. It's just about having a level playing field. If Kespa said "all Kespa teams must now recruit SC2 team coaches and players to maximize their starcraft 2 progress, and we will remove the "players must play alternating games" restriction, and SC2 results are independent of BW results" then it would be fine. Everybody is comparing SC2 current pros to BW pros because they want to, but until those groups play each other it's not relevant. What is relevant now is BW pros playing each other in SC2 and BW. Injecting SC2 pros into it just makes the competition unfair. When BW players go full SC2 ofcourse they want SC2 teammates, SC2 coaches and SC2 competitive scene to train in, as of now it makes the games ridiculous (see lizzy).
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On May 22 2012 18:22 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 18:17 letian wrote:God, I hate new "ratings" section so much, I can't even express it)) Where is the old "Yes" "No" ??? It is much easier to judge out the value of the game since it has 3 parameters and not 5, where you also have to count stars! there are nicer ways of telling the OP that.
But he is right .. I want my yes,no,maybe if you have time ..
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So do restreams no longer kill eSports?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50632 Posts
On May 22 2012 18:37 branflakes14 wrote:
So do restreams no longer kill eSports?
as long as its kespa, nope..
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.asianpopcorn.com/battle_images/After_School_Lizzy_11102010151358.jpg)
