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Grats to Ace, KT will get you next time ; D
No surprise KT doesn't show up til like playoff time lol
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On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while.
You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning ....
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On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl.
It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games.
Red shuttle fighting  !
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On May 22 2012 17:31 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:29 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 07:38 opterown wrote:Players must alternate between playing BW and SC2, so that means  Stats, Wooki,  Crazy-Hydra, great, Kal and Peace must play SC2 while Motive,  BarrackS, Flash, StarDust, Iris and firebathero must play BW. Any player can play in the Ace SC2 match.
so i didn't see a thread, but hey, thought i'd try my hand at this. took work off today so i should be able to cover it, at least until GSL starts. please help me! PL is very different to GSL so any help/feedback would be much appreciated it would be great if we could get a consistent thing going for SPL in SC2 forums! yay I there OP. I see no thread in the BW section TT so I thank you for doing this here, good job! I have a question though. Why do you have "Lizzy" in the results instead of Motive like you do in your second post? I think that even if the player is called lizzy on the ladder, his handle that kespa gives is motive so I believe your second post to be the correct one (one doesn't call MKP IIIIIIIII for instance). Or maybe they are actually two players? I just woke up so I dont know if lizzy and motive are two diff persons or if you just called the same person two names :p If it is just the same guy I vote for uniformization of Motive since that's what he is called officially. Other than that, good job with the OP  It's common for people to call players by a different name than their current KeSPA handle: For example from tonight: Stardust -> most people use M18M Goojila -> most people use Kal etc
Completely different case. Both those players started with those handles and changed them "recently". People got to know them by their original nick names and when they changed, people didn't change the way they were called. Which makes sense.
Motive is a new player who had never played a TV match for KT. He starts as Motive and if the cases of Kal, etc were to be followed he would be known as Motive despite using other handles in practice (Flash used a strange name whenever he played on public ladders, I cant exactly remember what was it TT but people didn't stop calling him Flash because of that =/ ). The thing is, your example made sense if it was the other way around, those two cases don't actually translate at all to the Motive case.
Unless you argue that he was known way before his first TV match. Then the reverse of my argument applies yes. Then again Im used to people making their name in game and not in ladder because...well it was a different game. Still the way you presented your argument favours my point, but after writing this I see how the other argument of him being known before on ladder could surface so I'll avoid the subject from now on
Thanks for the reply anyway.
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It's not even Lizzy's fault. The coaching staff would've chosen that build for him, especially since he is such a novice.
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On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no.
Tell me what was so amazing about that phoenix usage because it was definitely not any better than what I've seen in SC2 beta games.
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I don't know why people act this surprised, ACE has won several matches against KTFlash, last season even, right?
I mean, Firebathero, people.
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On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no.
actually no, it wasnt
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he probably was a mostly sc2 player however i bet KT just told him to do that fast gateway rush saying do this hoping he goes CC first and win with the rush and if he doesnt go CC first then you lose.
Some terrans might by some freak accident think the enemy toss is going nexus first, so they go CC first. in that bizzare situation the build would work
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On May 22 2012 17:33 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:28 Klogon wrote:On May 22 2012 17:26 Caphe wrote:
Ok, is it just me or watching SC1 pro play SC2 suddenly make SC2 interesting again? Yeah. I love watching the highest level of play, but also seeing insanely talented people basically learning the game in front of our eyes is also intriguing haha I think that'll be one of the more interesting things to come from this hybrid league. For all its flaws it will be quite cool to see incredibly talented players improving rapidly week by week =) Congrats to ACE, I actually felt Kal played a pretty decent game there. Good scouting and awareness around the map, very active with his phoenixes =)
This is the reason why I feel KT's strategy of using SC2 specialists seem gay. Even if they win, I can't root for players like Lizzy because I don't care about them. It's actually more entertaining to see Flash fail and see him realize why you need reactored hellions in TvZ to keep zerg from macroing out of control.
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On May 22 2012 17:39 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:31 xxpack09 wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 07:38 opterown wrote:Players must alternate between playing BW and SC2, so that means Stats, Wooki, Crazy-Hydra, great, Kal and Peace must play SC2 while Motive, BarrackS, Flash, StarDust, Iris and firebathero must play BW. Any player can play in the Ace SC2 match.
so i didn't see a thread, but hey, thought i'd try my hand at this. took work off today so i should be able to cover it, at least until GSL starts. please help me! PL is very different to GSL so any help/feedback would be much appreciated it would be great if we could get a consistent thing going for SPL in SC2 forums! yay I there OP. I see no thread in the BW section TT so I thank you for doing this here, good job! I have a question though. Why do you have "Lizzy" in the results instead of Motive like you do in your second post? I think that even if the player is called lizzy on the ladder, his handle that kespa gives is motive so I believe your second post to be the correct one (one doesn't call MKP IIIIIIIII for instance). Or maybe they are actually two players? I just woke up so I dont know if lizzy and motive are two diff persons or if you just called the same person two names :p If it is just the same guy I vote for uniformization of Motive since that's what he is called officially. Other than that, good job with the OP It's common for people to call players by a different name than their current KeSPA handle: For example from tonight: Stardust -> most people use M18M Goojila -> most people use Kal etc Completely different case. Both those players started with those handles and changed them "recently". People got to know them by their original nick names and when they changed, people didn't change the way they were called. Which makes sense. Motive is a new player who had never played a TV match for KT. He starts as Motive and if the cases of Kal, etc were to be followed he would be known as Motive despite using other handles in practice (Flash used a strange name whenever he played on public ladders, I cant exactly remember what was it TT but people didn't stop calling him Flash because of that =/ ). The thing is, your example made sense if it was the other way around, those two cases don't actually translate at all to the Motive case. Unless you argue that he was known way before his first TV match. Then the reverse of my argument applies yes. Then again Im used to people making their name in game and not in ladder because...well it was a different game. Still the way you presented your argument favours my point, but after writing this I see how the other argument of him being known before on ladder could surface so I'll avoid the subject from now on Thanks for the reply anyway.
I think we all just like Lizzy more, at least that's my reason.
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I don't get why people even feel inclined to compare the BW legends to sc2 pros. If you want legit good games in PL watch the BW and turn it off.
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On May 22 2012 17:40 roymarthyup wrote:
he probably was a mostly sc2 player however i bet KT just told him to do that fast gateway rush saying do this hoping he goes CC first and win with the rush and if he doesnt go CC first then you lose.
Some terrans might by some freak accident think the enemy toss is going nexus first, so they go CC first. in that bizzare situation the build would work
Pretty sure he did the build that would lose the fastest without being so overt as match throwing. Who can blame him, it's insanely difficult to get back into bw after a year of dedication to sc2.
It's probably KT's strategy now. Too bad their A team is really, really bad at sc2.
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On May 22 2012 17:39 KobraKay wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:31 xxpack09 wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 KobraKay wrote:On May 22 2012 07:38 opterown wrote:Players must alternate between playing BW and SC2, so that means Stats, Wooki, Crazy-Hydra, great, Kal and Peace must play SC2 while Motive, BarrackS, Flash, StarDust, Iris and firebathero must play BW. Any player can play in the Ace SC2 match.
so i didn't see a thread, but hey, thought i'd try my hand at this. took work off today so i should be able to cover it, at least until GSL starts. please help me! PL is very different to GSL so any help/feedback would be much appreciated it would be great if we could get a consistent thing going for SPL in SC2 forums! yay I there OP. I see no thread in the BW section TT so I thank you for doing this here, good job! I have a question though. Why do you have "Lizzy" in the results instead of Motive like you do in your second post? I think that even if the player is called lizzy on the ladder, his handle that kespa gives is motive so I believe your second post to be the correct one (one doesn't call MKP IIIIIIIII for instance). Or maybe they are actually two players? I just woke up so I dont know if lizzy and motive are two diff persons or if you just called the same person two names :p If it is just the same guy I vote for uniformization of Motive since that's what he is called officially. Other than that, good job with the OP It's common for people to call players by a different name than their current KeSPA handle: For example from tonight: Stardust -> most people use M18M Goojila -> most people use Kal etc Completely different case. Both those players started with those handles and changed them "recently". People got to know them by their original nick names and when they changed, people didn't change the way they were called. Which makes sense. Motive is a new player who had never played a TV match for KT. He starts as Motive and if the cases of Kal, etc were to be followed he would be known as Motive despite using other handles in practice (Flash used a strange name whenever he played on public ladders, I cant exactly remember what was it TT but people didn't stop calling him Flash because of that =/ ). The thing is, your example made sense if it was the other way around, those two cases don't actually translate at all to the Motive case. Unless you argue that he was known way before his first TV match. Then the reverse of my argument applies yes. Then again Im used to people making their name in game and not in ladder because...well it was a different game. Still the way you presented your argument favours my point, but after writing this I see how the other argument of him being known before on ladder could surface so I'll avoid the subject from now on Thanks for the reply anyway.
Agreed, but can the TLPD editors please use the names that old BW players are known by? No one knows who StarDust or Goojila are.
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On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting !
Although I agree he used phoenix well, most good players could pull that off when they're playing someone who clearly doesn't have a solid grasp of SC2. To say he's miles ahead of any programer when it comes to phoenix usage is just absurd.
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On May 22 2012 17:41 Irave wrote:
I don't get why people even feel inclined to compare the BW legends to sc2 pros. If you want legit good games in PL watch the BW and turn it off.
Hate it break it to you but not even BW delivers "legit good games" any more.
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On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting !
Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign".
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On May 22 2012 17:39 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:33 ninini wrote:On May 22 2012 16:41 roymarthyup wrote:On May 22 2012 16:37 Sawamura wrote:On May 22 2012 16:36 roymarthyup wrote:
ummm i think your faulting lizzy too hard here
yes he did choose a horrible build but i bet bisu/stork using that horrible build and in situation would have still been in that horrible position given the two builds
lizzy chose to press his attack that pretty much had a 100% chance of failing due to the build order loss
if stork/bisu tries that they would fail just as hard you cannot break that bunker and tank
bisu/stork at that point could have pulled back and tried to power through the disadvantage through macro and skill, however the main problem was it was a pure build order loss and you can either press your attack that has a 100% chance to fail and hope your enemy makes a mistake, or pull back and you are at a 100% disadvantage macro wise and once again hope your vastly better than your enemy to win
not much lizzy could have done there given he decided to press on his failed attack and give it a chance
if flash does CC first and dies to 4pool and looks pathetic while it happens, its the same thing. BO losses exist Stork will open 1 gate goon range rather than 10/15 so no your argument is invalid. wrong. my argument is valid because i never said stork was allowed to use a different build. In my argument i said stork has to use the same build as lizzy, and i said IF stork was retarded enough to use lizzies horrible build, theres no way he could use "skill" to make the build work in that situation if you put stork in that situation, with lizzies retarded build, and expect stork to break that bunker and tank, it wont happen theres no way you can use skill to use that horrible build and end up breaking that bunker/tank. its impossible. lizzy just looked horrible because he thought he would give it a shot and hope maybe he might be able to make something happen even though the game was 100% lost at that point given his horrible build If Stork did a 2 gate push, he would have executed it better, and if it failed, he would have backed down, stopped production and double expanded, or maybe went for reavers. This guy did a funky 2 gate robo into dt's into 3 gate. What the frick is that? That's the kind of build that you might see in the D-rank league, and even there, the top terrans (who are D+) can deal with it. This guy was never signed for his BW skills. He's laughable by korean BW standards. And what's worse is he's a liar, since he claimed to be a BW progamer. This setup already was a joke, but KT is just making it even more tasteless. This was supposed to be a switch where only BW progamers were allowed to play, so that they would have equal chances, but KT have clearly worked around the system by signing two SC2 players who have been posing as BW players for a while. You are on to something he says that he join in as a bw progamer but he could probably be a sc2 player from the beginning ....
Posing? He's just bad.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/2342_Lizzy/games
Every team is going to have problems adjusting this season regardless, is it tasteless for other teams to hire SC2 coaches or use former SC2 experience (like guemchi is)?
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On May 22 2012 17:43 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2012 17:39 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:36 AxionSteel wrote:On May 22 2012 17:34 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:32 mrtomjones wrote:On May 22 2012 17:30 casualman wrote:On May 22 2012 17:29 Killerkrack wrote:
This play is terrible. I know these guys haven't gotten much time at all with SC2, but I had to close my stream due to how bad this has been. Actually I'm pretty sure Kal is playing better than your average foreigner pro P. Define average there. Socke/Huk level would have smashed both of them more often than not... below that there are plenty of people who would beat that build easy. Maybe, but his phoenix usage was definitely miles ahead of any progamer playing sc2, foreigner or no. No it wasn't rofl. It definitely was. His phoenix usage guaranteed him the win; he defended the warp prism attack without losing a single unit and scouted the ninja expo, and picked off sentries in the final fight. He also got at least 8 probes with them, and an immortal. This was only 3 phoenixes, too. They were never idle and did more damage than most players get out of the standard 5 phoenixes. That could be in part because of Stats' unfamiliarity with sc2, but definitely, you don't see that much alertness and attention to phoenix usage in normal pro games. Red shuttle fighting ! Um, what you've described is good phoenix play, but not "the best phoenix play by miles over any sc2 player, Korean or foreign".
I haven't seen phoenix usage close to that. Not with <= 5 phoenixes, at least
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Not a bad game to end the day with, nice phoenix usage from Kal and actually decent forcefields from Stats. Somehow PvP is not the worst matchup when played by BW people. This is probably a good thing since I imagine we're going to see an awful lot of it in the coming months.
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EPT
