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I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet!
YourGoodFriend, I thank you for bringing something substantial to the table other than blind loyalty to all the members of the TL pro SC2 team. Contrary to what many may think I am not crying for pitchforks and torches in regards to Haypro. However I am asking for a reasonable discussion in-regard to his worth to the team. I ask anyone here who follows a pro sports team to list how often that team let loyalty and friendship come in the way of the bottom line. And oh yes this has happened, albet rarely in some special cases. Numerous NFL (American football) and MLB (baseball) teams, rarely, and I mean rarely in the past 15 years are willing to follow loyalty to a player when it comes to the greater good of the team. In addition to that, there is the not so small matter of that particular players worth to the team in term of merchandise and branding.
I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team?
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So then would you now agree that he has brought something to the table and that he is worth the "badge" Liquid?
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On March 13 2012 14:39 Cornstyle wrote:Show nested quote +I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet! I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team?
Can't tell you why he should be on the team, but we can only assume why he is on the team, and thats because they want him there. Who knows the actual reason though. I don't really understand why you seeem to think TL needs to be run just like other teams and choose who to keep based on the money they bring in for the team, be it through media exposure or winning tournaments. There are obvious differences between a Starcraft 2 team and a MLB team. Again, they must think they are in a fine position/keeping up with other teams with Haypro on the team, so I don't get why his position should be questioned.
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Does he have any results other than that though? I'll be honest I am just not seeing it. I don't want any Tler to fail but when he has time and time again demonstrated substandard play without previous play to back it up (Jinro). I just can't agree that he should still be part of the team.
I keep coming back to the vast body of his work, coupled with the obvious disregard for his skill that is shown by the commentators (I will admit this is one of the first games I've seen televised of Haypro for the past few months. Mostly due to my own inability to follow the scene closely but he's certainly not making headwaves)
For the last time, I don't want him to fail, but even the most succesful sporting teams must cut those who aren't able to keep up with the rest of the team. I feel HAypro's body of work for the past year indicates he is on the short list of those in all the pro teams who aren't meeting expectations.
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On March 13 2012 14:39 Cornstyle wrote:Show nested quote +I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet! YourGoodFriend, I thank you for bringing something substantial to the table other than blind loyalty to all the members of the TL pro SC2 team. Contrary to what many may think I am not crying for pitchforks and torches in regards to Haypro. However I am asking for a reasonable discussion in-regard to his worth to the team. I ask anyone here who follows a pro sports team to list how often that team let loyalty and friendship come in the way of the bottom line. And oh yes this has happened, albet rarely in some special cases. Numerous NFL (American football) and MLB (baseball) teams, rarely, and I mean rarely in the past 15 years are willing to follow loyalty to a player when it comes to the greater good of the team. In addition to that, there is the not so small matter of that particular players worth to the team in term of merchandise and branding. I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team?
Most teams are like family. Removing one player who is still showing results has a detrimental effect on the team and it's atmosphere. In the case of TL, why would they remove HayprO? His showing decent results for a 'foreigner' and is a key member in Liquid. When you see Bon Jovi or Banjo, I personally am reminded of HayprO, so there's marketability there.
Now you say you want to have a discussion about HayprO and his worth on the team? Your quote is solid proof as to why he is still on the team: He can beat top level players.
I ask you the following questions:
Why is SaSe on Quantic?
Why is lzGamer on EG?
Why is Jinro on TL?
Why is DeMuslim on EG?
Why is Machine on EG?
Because guess what? You don't have the right to say who deserves to be on what team and why. The team owner and player are the judge of it, there's really no discussion to do here. Also, get me transcripts of players and commentators who have questioned why HayprO is still playing. Everything I've read or heard states the opposite - HayprO has the ability to take down top tier players. Personally, that in itself warrants him to be on the team.
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On March 13 2012 14:21 Cornstyle wrote:Haha obviously I am not. However when you look at how a player helps his team's brand, Haypro seems to be lagging behind when looking at the total package. I understand there is a ton of loyalty to Haypro based upon the fact he is part of TL. But please, anyone who acutally watched this series, what were your thoughts to Demuslim and Machines comments about how they were not in the least bit surprised that Haypro was the one TLer to lose? Fine for all your loyalty, but when other PROGAMERS are questioning him on air, what gives for the blind loyalty?
I just don't think you understand the nature of Team Liquid. This isn't EG or another hardcore corporate team that cuts players that aren't profitible. TL is clearly very thoughtful on the players they choose to add to the roster, and to my knowledge there hasn't been a single cut to date thanks to their careful selection process.
If you haven't noticed, it seems that only the brightest, most honorable and respectul players are invited to join the team. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the players on Liquid's roster are the very embodiment of this website in terms of values. Is this sheer coincidence that TL chose these personalities to represent the community? I think not.
TL is not going to cut Haypro or anyone else anytime soon. People don't keep coming to this website just to see good results from the roster, or crazy talk from a rude "what's-he-going-to-say-next" player. No, they come because this is a great community that goes beyond merely trying to appease the small (but heavily vocal) results-driven, uber-testosterone-charged adolescent crowd.
This place has transcended the norm and is now a family for most of us, and you don't just throw a member of your family out in the cold because you think you might make more money with someone else.
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On March 13 2012 14:57 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 14:39 Cornstyle wrote:I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet! YourGoodFriend, I thank you for bringing something substantial to the table other than blind loyalty to all the members of the TL pro SC2 team. Contrary to what many may think I am not crying for pitchforks and torches in regards to Haypro. However I am asking for a reasonable discussion in-regard to his worth to the team. I ask anyone here who follows a pro sports team to list how often that team let loyalty and friendship come in the way of the bottom line. And oh yes this has happened, albet rarely in some special cases. Numerous NFL (American football) and MLB (baseball) teams, rarely, and I mean rarely in the past 15 years are willing to follow loyalty to a player when it comes to the greater good of the team. In addition to that, there is the not so small matter of that particular players worth to the team in term of merchandise and branding. I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team? Most teams are like family. Removing one player who is still showing results has a detrimental effect on the team and it's atmosphere. In the case of TL, why would they remove HayprO? His showing decent results for a 'foreigner' and is a key member in Liquid. When you see Bon Jovi or Banjo, I personally am reminded of HayprO, so there's marketability there. Now you say you want to have a discussion about HayprO and his worth on the team? Your quote is solid proof as to why he is still on the team: He can beat top level players. I ask you the following questions: Why is SaSe on Quantic? Why is lzGamer on EG? Why is Jinro on TL? Why is DeMuslim on EG? Why is Machine on EG? Because guess what? You don't have the right to say who deserves to be on what team and why. The team owner and player are the judge of it, there's really no discussion to do here. Also, get me transcripts of players and commentators who have questioned why HayprO is still playing. Everything I've read or heard states the opposite - HayprO has the ability to take down top tier players. Personally, that in itself warrants him to be on the team.
IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremelly good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year.
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I just don't think you understand the nature of Team Liquid. This isn't EG or another hardcore corporate team that cuts players that aren't profitible. TL is clearly very thoughtful on the players they choose to add to the roster, and to my knowledge there hasn't been a single cut to date due to their careful selection process.
If you haven't noticed, it seems that only the brightest, most honorable and respectul players are invited to join the team. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the players on Liquid's roster are the very embodiment of this website in terms of values. Is this sheer coincidence that TL chose these personalities to represent the community? I think not.
TL is not going to cut Haypro or anyone else anytime soon. People don't keep coming to this website just to see good results from the roster, or crazy talk from a rude "what's-he-going-to-say-next" player. No, they come because this is a great community that goes beyond merely trying to appease the small (but heavily vocal) results-driven, uber-testosterone-charged adolescent crowd.
This place has transcended the norm and is now a family for most of us, and you don't just throw a member of your family out in the cold because you think might make more money with someone else.
Last
I feel like you sum up best both my feelings on the issue as well as all those opposed.
I am not trying to call into the viability of the TL site as a whole, which you seem to mention as your primary arguement, please correct me if I'm wrong about this. However I am not talking about the Tl SITE, which has very clearly morphed before all our eyes into a community based NEWS site. TL, as a news source and community website, is starting to brand itself as such, the fact that now unless one checks the "hide spoilers" box speaks for itself.
All I am calling into question is the TL "PRO TEAM". It is easy to place TL as a sort of utopian place where loyalty and friendship is placed above all, and to be honest I hope it retains those values as well as they can. Yet as this grows those values will change, as anyone who was here prior to SC2 can attest(I am not among them). All I can keep pointing out is the worth of Haypro to the TL "PRO TEAM", not the community as a whole. Yes it is wonderful to wish that our sport, competitive SC2, won't degenerate into the money driven world that is professional athletics. However, I ask for those in the community to list Haypro's contributions, both competitive and community based, that continue to justify his spot on the TL"PRO-GAMING" team. That is the crux of my arguement.
Clearly I do not pretend to know all of the competitive side, he may be an extremely effective practice partner to other TL pro-members, and sure, maybe that is alone worth his continued part of the team. But still nobody has given any sort of proof other than "TL values its loyalty and friends" why he is still a member of the "PRO" team to be sent out againt other teams. If he had better results or a stronger community presence I'd be more forgiving of him.
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IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year
Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
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I think turning this thread into a Haypro topic doesn't make any sense. His team smashed us, His team played better. They won 3 of 4 BO 3's, no one can win them all. Haypro has beaten incredible players at times, lets be reminded of when he took out Nestea.
He deserves to be on TL, or he wouldn't be anymore plain and simple. Give the guy a break.
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On March 13 2012 15:29 Cornstyle wrote:Show nested quote +IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
top 8al mlg providence, which was one of, if not the most stacked tournament outside of GSL, isn't a meaningful result?
gonna disagree there.
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On March 13 2012 16:20 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 15:29 Cornstyle wrote:IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out top 8al mlg providence, which was one of, if not the most stacked tournament outside of GSL, isn't a meaningful result? gonna disagree there.
Exactly, he placed above IdrA in that tournament. How in the hell is that not team worthy skill?
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I forget: Why is Haypro called Banjo again?
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Sir Cornstyle you asked for results as a reason to why he is on the team I gave you those results (see earlier post on page 9 ) yet you still say this But still nobody has given any sort of proof other than "TL values its loyalty and friends" why he is still a member of the "PRO" team to be sent out againt other teams. If he had better results or a stronger community presence I'd be more forgiving of him.
So I must ask what do you really want? He actually has a better list of recent results than all of EG excluding Puma (please check this out if you do not believe me) and has been known to take down some of the top players in the world. So I ask again tell me what are you looking for? a GSL title? a MLG title? a IEM title? please explain because I have given you solid proof and yet you still are asking the same question which has already been answered
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If Liquid starts cutting players based on results, Nony should be the first one to go. No question about it.
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If Liquid starts cutting players based on results, they're going to cut a large portion of their fanbase as well.
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On March 12 2012 14:00 Battousai13 wrote:
Liquid 3-1 It's GoSu
ViBE is a good Zerg player, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him take his set for GoSu.
ViBE is NOT beating Sheth...sorry.
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On March 13 2012 21:54 Bagi wrote:
If Liquid starts cutting players based on results, Nony should be the first one to go. No question about it.
but they wont, no organisation does.
dont be a jerk
On March 13 2012 16:20 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 15:29 Cornstyle wrote:IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out top 8al mlg providence, which was one of, if not the most stacked tournament outside of GSL, isn't a meaningful result? gonna disagree there.
cherry picking 1 result doesnt mean anything ever. i hate it when threads like this dissolve into people hunting liquidpedia for 1 result to justify their whole point of view. 1 win, 1 loss, hell 5 wins, 5 losses dont mean anything big picture. when you decide how good a player is you should concentrate more on how they win or lose, alongside a huge string of results.
all this cherry picking just makes everyone look stupid.
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On March 14 2012 02:11 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 21:54 Bagi wrote:
If Liquid starts cutting players based on results, Nony should be the first one to go. No question about it. but they wont, no organisation does. dont be a jerk
Maybe not Liquid, but tell that to Axslav, Strifecro, Welmu, and the list goes on.
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On March 13 2012 15:29 Cornstyle wrote:Show nested quote +IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
The entirety of it'sgosu has no players with meaningful results, maybe the team should just disband? Your posts are some of the most obnoxious passive-aggressive "just asking questions" ones I've seen recently.
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EPT
