Casters: Benjamin "DeMusliM" Baker and Bryce "Machine" Bates
Format
The Evil Geniuses Master’s Cup Series League will feature 12 teams in a round robin format with each team matchup containing at least four best of three games between two teams. The top four teams at the end of the season will advance to the playoffs on a two day live broadcast weekend. Results
Does no one realize the OP forgot to edit the body text that he copy and pasted from last week. It still says Dignitas vs Team Liquid in the main body.
On March 12 2012 14:14 RaiKageRyu wrote: Does no one realize the OP forgot to edit the body text that he copy and pasted from last week. It still says Dignitas vs Team Liquid in the main body.
Yeah I reacted to this as well lol, should probably edit that. Still, looks to be nice games
On March 12 2012 14:14 RaiKageRyu wrote: Does no one realize the OP forgot to edit the body text that he copy and pasted from last week. It still says Dignitas vs Team Liquid in the main body.
Hero and Sheth should win their games against STX and vibe, Respectively. DDE vs TLO is a toss up. And Haypro has Dual sight first so he should win the first match. But i'd give it to HwangSin after that.
Liquid will either win 3-1 or via the ace match (i don't think gosu has anyone that can match Hero or Ret).
On March 13 2012 00:25 ThatGuy89 wrote: first time ive voted for liquid to win one of these cant see Its Gosu winning this btw, why nony never play in these?
Does Nony practice consistently? I'm not trying to make that question sound like a put-down, I am seriously curious. I had heard that he had stopped practicing due to depression, not sure if he is back. It's a real shame, the guy has a lot of talent for RTS.
Looking forward to the casting as well. Machine and Demuslim should be a very insightful pair.
On March 13 2012 00:25 ThatGuy89 wrote: first time ive voted for liquid to win one of these cant see Its Gosu winning this btw, why nony never play in these?
iirc he said on sotg/his stream that he won't play in teamleagues until he is in good shape
On March 13 2012 03:06 Champloo wrote: 3-2 win for Liquid with TLO and Haypro losing their games.
Agree with this totally. I don't see TLO beating DDE or Haypro beating HwangSin.
Really? Because Haypro and TLO both outclass their opponents. Just think of it this way - if either TLO or Haypro was on It's Gosu, they would likely be considered the ace of the team.
On March 13 2012 03:06 Champloo wrote: 3-2 win for Liquid with TLO and Haypro losing their games.
Agree with this totally. I don't see TLO beating DDE or Haypro beating HwangSin.
Really? Because Haypro and TLO both outclass their opponents. Just think of it this way - if either TLO or Haypro was on It's Gosu, they would likely be considered the ace of the team.
DDE is better than TLO.
Hwangsin is a very cheesy player and Haypro isn't exactly throwing up great results too often.
HerO and Sheth should roll their opponents. TLO I feel has the advantage vs DDE and Haypro...cant predict what's gonna happen there (If it would come so far)
On March 13 2012 10:22 Jiddra wrote: OK, this is kind of cute casting!
Yeah I think it'll be interesting. I'm used to hearing DeMuslim as more of the back-up, passive caster (alongside a more loud and colorful voice, like iNcontroL), so hearing him take the lead with Machine as the back-up will be a pretty cool change of pace.
On March 13 2012 10:22 Jiddra wrote: OK, this is kind of cute casting!
Yeah I think it'll be interesting. I'm used to hearing DeMuslim as more of the back-up, passive caster (alongside a more loud and colorful voice, like iNcontroL), so hearing him take the lead with Machine as the back-up will be a pretty cool change of pace.
I read that comment as if you were talking about it a "bromance" movie >_<
On March 13 2012 10:22 Jiddra wrote: OK, this is kind of cute casting!
Yeah I think it'll be interesting. I'm used to hearing DeMuslim as more of the back-up, passive caster (alongside a more loud and colorful voice, like iNcontroL), so hearing him take the lead with Machine as the back-up will be a pretty cool change of pace.
I read that comment as if you were talking about it a "bromance" movie >_<
Hahahaha. DeMuslim does have a pretty face.
Game one was one of the most lackluster games I've ever seen in a tournament lol.
On March 13 2012 10:32 Seraphone wrote: EG making the best of a tough situation with the casters. Demuslim is actually better doing play by play than I thought he would be.
He is doing both the play by play and the analysis, lol.
On March 13 2012 10:32 Seraphone wrote: EG making the best of a tough situation with the casters. Demuslim is actually better doing play by play than I thought he would be.
He is doing both the play by play and the analysis, lol.
Machine is clearly not as comfortable, but I think he's slowly getting a hang of it. He was quite chatty for like 30 seconds in the last game.
On March 13 2012 10:32 Seraphone wrote: EG making the best of a tough situation with the casters. Demuslim is actually better doing play by play than I thought he would be.
He is doing both the play by play and the analysis, lol.
Demuslim needs to stop once in awhile and let Machine chime in, but overall I'm really enjoying this. Demuslim is an extremely smooth talker, I can see why EG got him ^_^
On March 13 2012 10:32 Seraphone wrote: EG making the best of a tough situation with the casters. Demuslim is actually better doing play by play than I thought he would be.
He is doing both the play by play and the analysis, lol.
Umm...that was quite an overreaction. I guess he felt like he was going to die. I don't think HerO realized how much damage he could have really done had he committed.
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
could be the other way around...hero has been doing phoenix builds PvT for quite a while most notably against Puma in NASL
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
could be the other way around...hero has been doing phoenix builds PvT for quite a while most notably against Puma in NASL
Ah okay, I've never actually seen Hero do it before, but that would make sense.
On March 13 2012 10:32 Seraphone wrote: EG making the best of a tough situation with the casters. Demuslim is actually better doing play by play than I thought he would be.
He is doing both the play by play and the analysis, lol.
xD
poor Machine seems a bit out of his element.
yea machine needs to offrace a bit more
Yeah, I just thought about that now, haha. Hopefully he's more talkative in the TLO match.
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
Hero actually does/did phoenix builds a lot on stream about a month ago while in Korean grandmaster, fairly successfully.
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
Hero actually does/did phoenix builds a lot on stream about a month ago while in Korean grandmaster, fairly successfully.
Well it's quite smart really, it causes terran to invest in missile turrets and then you can snipe medivacs which makes storm even better.
On March 13 2012 10:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Hero could have won this Bo3 in 12 minutes flat... I guess he wanted this second game to go to the midgame so he could play a little ^^
Is there anything notable about STX? He got stomped sooo hard, and Hero didn't even need to play amazingly.
To be fair HerO makes good Terran players look silly as well.
On March 13 2012 10:35 7mk wrote: lol why does the stream say "EU rebroadcast".. really? EU rebroadcast starting at 2 am CET? :p
Error by our designer. Sorry!
np
about anyone criticizing machine, I think its very nice that he is like the newbie co-caster asking questions, this way demuslim is just gonna do a better job with his analysis and I hugely prefer it to machine pretending like he knew what he was talking about, which is what most casters do and is often cringe-worthy. And I mean theres no reason he should know anything about PvT.
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
Hero actually does/did phoenix builds a lot on stream about a month ago while in Korean grandmaster, fairly successfully.
Well it's quite smart really, it causes terran to invest in missile turrets and then you can snipe medivacs which makes storm even better.
well if you're going the templar route then generally you will be feedbacking medivacs and then using the phoenix to deter drops and finish off the non feedbacked medivacs...this actually leads to an ideal late game scenario if you can get away with it...phoenix opening for perfect information and denial of drops into chargelot storm with mass expansion and close out the game with a colossus addition
phoenix colossus storm chargelot..../drool @ that army PvT
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
Hero actually does/did phoenix builds a lot on stream about a month ago while in Korean grandmaster, fairly successfully.
Well it's quite smart really, it causes terran to invest in missile turrets and then you can snipe medivacs which makes storm even better.
His most memorable Phoenix PvT was against MarineKing in the WCG, a game which he won. If you can make Phoenix viable against MarineKing, you can use them against anyone.
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
Hero actually does/did phoenix builds a lot on stream about a month ago while in Korean grandmaster, fairly successfully.
Well it's quite smart really, it causes terran to invest in missile turrets and then you can snipe medivacs which makes storm even better.
His most memorable Phoenix PvT was against MarineKing in the WCG, a game which he won. If you can make Phoenix viable against MarineKing, you can use them against anyone.
oh i remember that game, that was the wcg where nony casted drunk wasn't it?
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
Hero actually does/did phoenix builds a lot on stream about a month ago while in Korean grandmaster, fairly successfully.
Well it's quite smart really, it causes terran to invest in missile turrets and then you can snipe medivacs which makes storm even better.
His most memorable Phoenix PvT was against MarineKing in the WCG, a game which he won. If you can make Phoenix viable against MarineKing, you can use them against anyone.
oh i remember that game, that was the wcg where nony casted drunk wasn't it?
I know he casted the game, not sure about the drunk part though, lol.
On March 13 2012 10:39 Azhrei16 wrote: I actually seen Nony do a phoenix build against a terran on ladder last week or so, it was pretty interesting. Wonder if Hero got this off of him.
Hero actually does/did phoenix builds a lot on stream about a month ago while in Korean grandmaster, fairly successfully.
Well it's quite smart really, it causes terran to invest in missile turrets and then you can snipe medivacs which makes storm even better.
His most memorable Phoenix PvT was against MarineKing in the WCG, a game which he won. If you can make Phoenix viable against MarineKing, you can use them against anyone.
oh i remember that game, that was the wcg where nony casted drunk wasn't it?
?! If this is true please give me a link so I can watch it daily.
Well without that scan and that turret TLO woulda won that game for sure. Not saying that dde was just lucky tho, TLO was going for a risky strat and he got punished for
On March 13 2012 11:13 ItchyLegs wrote: 16 pool 4 queens no gas is DRG. These casters aren't familiar with GSL ?
I think it is 16 pool , 3 queens, late 3 gas.
you are wrong.
I study DRG's play and his vs T build on maps with a large ramp (ie Antiga (see MKP vs DRG GSL Ro16) Shakuras (see replay in his OLD OLD OLD interview))
On March 13 2012 11:13 ItchyLegs wrote: 16 pool 4 queens no gas is DRG. These casters aren't familiar with GSL ?
I think it is 16 pool , 3 queens, late 3 gas.
you are wrong.
I study DRG's play and his vs T build on maps with a large ramp (ie Antiga (see MKP vs DRG GSL Ro16) Shakuras (see replay in his OLD OLD OLD interview))
no, he got early gas for speedling against reaper in his match game 7 in shakuras against MMA in bliz final, 3 gas 3 queens only
What a terrible series. DDE could have closed that out quite a few times. The games I've seen so far from TLO recently have been quite poor in general also.
DDE's lategame is pretty bad (specifically TvZ), which is the reason he goes for such aggressive strats. He pretty much threw that game. He needed to be far more aggressive with those tanks prior to BL.
That, and he'd have been so much better if he just made a pfort at this third. Of course, all in retrospect, but at least have handled the counter attacks better (perhaps make a wall with barracks, or leave 2 tanks at the third etc.). Rarely do Terrans not leave anything at their third (single bunker that's not getting repaired won't be enough for almost any counter).
omg i love these adds they make me sad that i don't have kingston hyperx in my pc O___O def know where i'm buying ram in the future just because of these <3 machine's acting
The game was messy because you have two aggressive players, aggression forces errors and the added multi-tasking of both attacking at the same time = that kind of result. GJ TLO! :D
On March 13 2012 12:24 Bagration wrote: Really enjoying the casting chemistry. Still, I would love to see Puma and JYP trying to cast similar to the way MC and MKP casted at HSC 4.
I dunno about JYP, but Puma really sees more like the quiet type, rather than the boisterous entertaining type that MC is, wouldn't be that fun.
On March 13 2012 12:24 Bagration wrote: Really enjoying the casting chemistry. Still, I would love to see Puma and JYP trying to cast similar to the way MC and MKP casted at HSC 4.
I dunno about JYP, but Puma really sees more like the quiet type, rather than the boisterous entertaining type that MC is, wouldn't be that fun.
We wouldn't know until we see it right? I agree that Puma seems very shy, but I bet that even in with Puma's limited English he could probably provide amazing analysis.
On March 13 2012 12:24 Bagration wrote: Really enjoying the casting chemistry. Still, I would love to see Puma and JYP trying to cast similar to the way MC and MKP casted at HSC 4.
I dunno about JYP, but Puma really sees more like the quiet type, rather than the boisterous entertaining type that MC is, wouldn't be that fun.
We wouldn't know until we see it right? I agree that Puma seems very shy, but I bet that even in with Puma's limited English he could probably provide amazing analysis.
If they got Puma relaxed and having fun, it would be as hilarious as MC. He way speaking some English with incontrol when they streamed their 2v2s and he was hilarious.
Banjo played that really well. They were criticising Hwangsin for missing FF's but i think tbh he had just used them all after walling off about 3 sets of banelings which allowed the ones from the back to go to town on his entire army and the one hole in the front FF's. Wouldn't know for sure though without watching again and looking at the sentry energy. Every zerg should flank like that when they have time to set it up though.
On March 13 2012 13:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pretty obvious 3-1 >.>
Meh, I wouldn't personally agree. I thought DDE vs TLO was a toss up, and that Vibe and Haypro both had a pretty good shot, though their opponents were the favorites.
I realize this has been a sometimes touchy subject but here goes:
Overall Haypro has not been performing to the level one would expect of a Team Liquid progamer. Yes, there are many arguements for other players who, while not being amongst the top players still contribute in very meaningful ( lucrative) ways to their team. However Haypro has time and again showed a substandard level of play. It couldn't have been more obvious than the snickering that went on between Machine and Demuslim that they expected Haypro to lose in the clan match here.
Liquid is well known for their loyalty to players, but when teams like EG demonstrate their goal is to further their brand, through media and player excellence, that I hope Liquid follows suit to some degree and begins to focus more on their overall team structure and cutting lose the players that are not holding to their high degree of excellence, both in game and out.
EDIT: I feel in order for Liquid to contine to compete with EG they need to evaluate their players and their worth to the team brand as a whole. Liquid is the premiere English speaking SC2 team. They may well lose a large portion of their American audience to EG if they don't begin to adopt some of the business practices of their competitor. I love TL and root for them above all, and yes as a whole the team has been performing amazingly (see the TL all kill of EG by Sheth) Haypro however has been one of the least successful TL'ers since the launch of SC2, both in media and in-game.
On March 13 2012 13:38 Cornstyle wrote: I realize this has been a sometimes touchy subject but here goes:
Overall Haypro has not been performing to the level one would expect of a Team Liquid progamer. Yes, there are many arguements for other players who, while not being amongst the top players still contribute in very meaningful ( lucrative) ways to their team. However Haypro has time and again showed a substandard level of play. It couldn't have been more obvious than the snickering that went on between Machine and Demuslim that they expected Haypro to lose in the clan match here.
Liquid is well known for their loyalty to players, but when teams like EG demonstrate their goal is to further their brand, through media and player excellence, that I hope Liquid follows suit to some degree and begins to focus more on their overall team structure and cutting lose the players that are not holding to their high degree of excellence, both in game and out.
In that same vein, you're suggesting cutting NonY and Jinro as well. Liquid's ability to grow players is one of its greatest strengths. They're not out to sign the hottest names.
On March 13 2012 13:38 Cornstyle wrote: I realize this has been a sometimes touchy subject but here goes:
Overall Haypro has not been performing to the level one would expect of a Team Liquid progamer. Yes, there are many arguements for other players who, while not being amongst the top players still contribute in very meaningful ( lucrative) ways to their team. However Haypro has time and again showed a substandard level of play. It couldn't have been more obvious than the snickering that went on between Machine and Demuslim that they expected Haypro to lose in the clan match here.
Liquid is well known for their loyalty to players, but when teams like EG demonstrate their goal is to further their brand, through media and player excellence, that I hope Liquid follows suit to some degree and begins to focus more on their overall team structure and cutting lose the players that are not holding to their high degree of excellence, both in game and out.
EDIT: I feel in order for Liquid to contine to compete with EG they need to evaluate their players and their worth to the team brand as a whole. Liquid is the premiere English speaking SC2 team. They may well lose a large portion of their American audience to EG if they don't begin to adopt some of the business practices of their competitor. I love TL and root for them above all, and yes as a whole the team has been performing amazingly (see the TL all kill of EG by Sheth) Haypro however has been one of the least successful TL'ers since the launch of SC2, both in media and in-game.
I feel that you misunderstand Team Liquid and shouldn't be talking in regards to their goals and how they should achieve them.
Nevermind the fact that your post is filled with ignorance about compared performances between teams. Haypro has proven that he is worthy of the Liquid tag on results alone, yet at the end of the day it is irrelevant because the only people it matters to, that he proves that he is worthy to Liquid, is Liquid itself.
On March 13 2012 13:38 Cornstyle wrote: I realize this has been a sometimes touchy subject but here goes:
Overall Haypro has not been performing to the level one would expect of a Team Liquid progamer. Yes, there are many arguements for other players who, while not being amongst the top players still contribute in very meaningful ( lucrative) ways to their team. However Haypro has time and again showed a substandard level of play. It couldn't have been more obvious than the snickering that went on between Machine and Demuslim that they expected Haypro to lose in the clan match here.
Liquid is well known for their loyalty to players, but when teams like EG demonstrate their goal is to further their brand, through media and player excellence, that I hope Liquid follows suit to some degree and begins to focus more on their overall team structure and cutting lose the players that are not holding to their high degree of excellence, both in game and out.
EDIT: I feel in order for Liquid to contine to compete with EG they need to evaluate their players and their worth to the team brand as a whole. Liquid is the premiere English speaking SC2 team. They may well lose a large portion of their American audience to EG if they don't begin to adopt some of the business practices of their competitor. I love TL and root for them above all, and yes as a whole the team has been performing amazingly (see the TL all kill of EG by Sheth) Haypro however has been one of the least successful TL'ers since the launch of SC2, both in media and in-game.
I feel that you misunderstand Team Liquid and shouldn't be talking in regards to their goals and how they should achieve them.
Nevermind the fact that your post is filled with ignorance about compared performances between teams. Haypro has proven that he is worthy of the Liquid tag on results alone, yet at the end of the day it is irrelevant because the only people it matters to, that he proves that he is worthy to Liquid, is Liquid itself.
Pretty much this. Plus, having arguably THE SC community website takes care a lot of the media stuff on its own, so TL doesn't necessarily need players to be going crazy trying to generate exposure.
On March 13 2012 13:38 Cornstyle wrote: I realize this has been a sometimes touchy subject but here goes:
Overall Haypro has not been performing to the level one would expect of a Team Liquid progamer. Yes, there are many arguements for other players who, while not being amongst the top players still contribute in very meaningful ( lucrative) ways to their team. However Haypro has time and again showed a substandard level of play. It couldn't have been more obvious than the snickering that went on between Machine and Demuslim that they expected Haypro to lose in the clan match here.
Liquid is well known for their loyalty to players, but when teams like EG demonstrate their goal is to further their brand, through media and player excellence, that I hope Liquid follows suit to some degree and begins to focus more on their overall team structure and cutting lose the players that are not holding to their high degree of excellence, both in game and out.
EDIT: I feel in order for Liquid to contine to compete with EG they need to evaluate their players and their worth to the team brand as a whole. Liquid is the premiere English speaking SC2 team. They may well lose a large portion of their American audience to EG if they don't begin to adopt some of the business practices of their competitor. I love TL and root for them above all, and yes as a whole the team has been performing amazingly (see the TL all kill of EG by Sheth) Haypro however has been one of the least successful TL'ers since the launch of SC2, both in media and in-game.
And how has idra, or machine, or lzgamer, or incontrol done?
In that same vein, you're suggesting cutting NonY and Jinro as well. Liquid's ability to grow players is one of its greatest strengths. They're not out to sign the hottest names.
I specifically mentioned the fact that some players, NonY in particular, contribute much more to the team than just finishes in tournaments. Jinro as well, he has at least some very very significant finishes in his career that allow him to remain on the team. List some important tournaments that Haypro has either won or placed highly in. Yes Jinro never won a GSL but he has the best finish of any foreigner in the GSL so far.
I feel that you misunderstand Team Liquid and shouldn't be talking in regards to their goals and how they should achieve them.
Nevermind the fact that your post is filled with ignorance about compared performances between teams. Haypro has proven that he is worthy of the Liquid tag on results alone, yet at the end of the day it is irrelevant because the only people it matters to, that he proves that he is worthy to Liquid, is Liquid itself.
I do not meant to presume TL's goals. However when basically every other member of their team is either furthering the brand through either media, NonY, or finishes within SC2, (essentially the rest of TL) Haypro is lagging behind. I mean nothing against Haypro personally, yet you cannot deny the fact that both Machine and Demuslim both clearly stated that if there was one of TL they expected to lose, it was Haypro. In addition Haypro does next to notheing to further the TL name in terms of media. The same cannot be said of the EG members who's results don't match with their standing with the team/ community.
Am I asking Tl to cut him this instant? No. But the fact remains that I question his value to the team when you compare the work done by the other foreigner teams in regards to talent and or marketability.
On March 13 2012 14:11 Cornstyle wrote: Am I asking Tl to cut him this instant? No. But the fact remains that I question his value to the team when you compare the work done by the other foreigner teams in regards to talent and or marketability.
You're not in a position to evaluate his contributions to the team.
And how has idra, or machine, or lzgamer, or incontrol done?
I mean, really~
I specifically mentioned the ability of a player to add revenue to his team. Whether this is through drama (Idra), or contributions to the community like Incontrol. Machine as well is at least being marketed well, however it is certainly fair to lump him into the same group as Haypro. All I'm saying is questioning their relative worth to their teams. If Haypro could begin to be marketed through TL then sure. It just seems when a plaryer isn't contributing to his team in a meaningful way, they are on the border to be cut, such as the recent EG cuts.
EG has shown they are very interested in furthering their own brand. Do they need TL to further their exposure? Absoluely as the WEBSITE TL is the premier SC2 site. But the TEAM TL has to comete with the TEAM EG for their own brand. I am not questioning the websites ability to keep its present course, only the progaming team.
They are stuck in an arms race with EG, see the Puma and Hero signings. By and by they are keeping pace. But EG has shown a cold business accumen in terms of getting rid of dead weight.
And how has idra, or machine, or lzgamer, or incontrol done?
I mean, really~
I specifically mentioned the ability of a player to add revenue to his team. Whether this is through drama (Idra), or contributions to the community like Incontrol. Machine as well is at least being marketed well, however it is certainly fair to lump him into the same group as Haypro. All I'm saying is questioning their relative worth to their teams. If Haypro could begin to be marketed through TL then sure. It just seems when a plaryer isn't contributing to his team in a meaningful way, they are on the border to be cut, such as the recent EG cuts.
EG has shown they are very interested in furthering their own brand. Do they need TL to further their exposure? Absoluely as the WEBSITE TL is the premier SC2 site. But the TEAM TL has to comete with the TEAM EG for their own brand. I am not questioning the websites ability to keep its present course, only the progaming team.
They are stuck in an arms race with EG, see the Puma and Hero signings. By and by they are keeping pace. But EG has shown as cold business accumen in terms of getting rid of dead weight.
Maybe TL doesn't think about its players exclusively in terms of how much money they can make for the team, and they have determined they are competing/keeping up well enough without having to cut a long time friend and teammate?
You're not in a position to evaluate his contributions to the team.
Haha obviously I am not. However when you look at how a player helps his team's brand, Haypro seems to be lagging behind when looking at the total package. I understand there is a ton of loyalty to Haypro based upon the fact he is part of TL. But please, anyone who acutally watched this series, what were your thoughts to Demuslim and Machines comments about how they were not in the least bit surprised that Haypro was the one TLer to lose? Fine for all your loyalty, but when other PROGAMERS are questioning him on air, what gives for the blind loyalty?
In that same vein, you're suggesting cutting NonY and Jinro as well. Liquid's ability to grow players is one of its greatest strengths. They're not out to sign the hottest names.
I specifically mentioned the fact that some players, NonY in particular, contribute much more to the team than just finishes in tournaments. Jinro as well, he has at least some very very significant finishes in his career that allow him to remain on the team. List some important tournaments that Haypro has either won or placed highly in. Yes Jinro never won a GSL but he has the best finish of any foreigner in the GSL so far.
I feel that you misunderstand Team Liquid and shouldn't be talking in regards to their goals and how they should achieve them.
Nevermind the fact that your post is filled with ignorance about compared performances between teams. Haypro has proven that he is worthy of the Liquid tag on results alone, yet at the end of the day it is irrelevant because the only people it matters to, that he proves that he is worthy to Liquid, is Liquid itself.
I do not meant to presume TL's goals. However when basically every other member of their team is either furthering the brand through either media, NonY, or finishes within SC2, (essentially the rest of TL) Haypro is lagging behind. I mean nothing against Haypro personally, yet you cannot deny the fact that both Machine and Demuslim both clearly stated that if there was one of TL they expected to lose, it was Haypro. In addition Haypro does next to notheing to further the TL name in terms of media. The same cannot be said of the EG members who's results don't match with their standing with the team/ community.
Am I asking Tl to cut him this instant? No. But the fact remains that I question his value to the team when you compare the work done by the other foreigner teams in regards to talent and or marketability.
I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet!
YourGoodFriend, I thank you for bringing something substantial to the table other than blind loyalty to all the members of the TL pro SC2 team. Contrary to what many may think I am not crying for pitchforks and torches in regards to Haypro. However I am asking for a reasonable discussion in-regard to his worth to the team. I ask anyone here who follows a pro sports team to list how often that team let loyalty and friendship come in the way of the bottom line. And oh yes this has happened, albet rarely in some special cases. Numerous NFL (American football) and MLB (baseball) teams, rarely, and I mean rarely in the past 15 years are willing to follow loyalty to a player when it comes to the greater good of the team. In addition to that, there is the not so small matter of that particular players worth to the team in term of merchandise and branding.
I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team?
I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet!
I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team?
Can't tell you why he should be on the team, but we can only assume why he is on the team, and thats because they want him there. Who knows the actual reason though. I don't really understand why you seeem to think TL needs to be run just like other teams and choose who to keep based on the money they bring in for the team, be it through media exposure or winning tournaments. There are obvious differences between a Starcraft 2 team and a MLB team. Again, they must think they are in a fine position/keeping up with other teams with Haypro on the team, so I don't get why his position should be questioned.
Does he have any results other than that though? I'll be honest I am just not seeing it. I don't want any Tler to fail but when he has time and time again demonstrated substandard play without previous play to back it up (Jinro). I just can't agree that he should still be part of the team.
I keep coming back to the vast body of his work, coupled with the obvious disregard for his skill that is shown by the commentators (I will admit this is one of the first games I've seen televised of Haypro for the past few months. Mostly due to my own inability to follow the scene closely but he's certainly not making headwaves)
For the last time, I don't want him to fail, but even the most succesful sporting teams must cut those who aren't able to keep up with the rest of the team. I feel HAypro's body of work for the past year indicates he is on the short list of those in all the pro teams who aren't meeting expectations.
I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet!
YourGoodFriend, I thank you for bringing something substantial to the table other than blind loyalty to all the members of the TL pro SC2 team. Contrary to what many may think I am not crying for pitchforks and torches in regards to Haypro. However I am asking for a reasonable discussion in-regard to his worth to the team. I ask anyone here who follows a pro sports team to list how often that team let loyalty and friendship come in the way of the bottom line. And oh yes this has happened, albet rarely in some special cases. Numerous NFL (American football) and MLB (baseball) teams, rarely, and I mean rarely in the past 15 years are willing to follow loyalty to a player when it comes to the greater good of the team. In addition to that, there is the not so small matter of that particular players worth to the team in term of merchandise and branding.
I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team?
Most teams are like family. Removing one player who is still showing results has a detrimental effect on the team and it's atmosphere. In the case of TL, why would they remove HayprO? His showing decent results for a 'foreigner' and is a key member in Liquid. When you see Bon Jovi or Banjo, I personally am reminded of HayprO, so there's marketability there.
Now you say you want to have a discussion about HayprO and his worth on the team? Your quote is solid proof as to why he is still on the team: He can beat top level players.
I ask you the following questions:
Why is SaSe on Quantic? Why is lzGamer on EG? Why is Jinro on TL? Why is DeMuslim on EG? Why is Machine on EG?
Because guess what? You don't have the right to say who deserves to be on what team and why. The team owner and player are the judge of it, there's really no discussion to do here. Also, get me transcripts of players and commentators who have questioned why HayprO is still playing. Everything I've read or heard states the opposite - HayprO has the ability to take down top tier players. Personally, that in itself warrants him to be on the team.
You're not in a position to evaluate his contributions to the team.
Haha obviously I am not. However when you look at how a player helps his team's brand, Haypro seems to be lagging behind when looking at the total package. I understand there is a ton of loyalty to Haypro based upon the fact he is part of TL. But please, anyone who acutally watched this series, what were your thoughts to Demuslim and Machines comments about how they were not in the least bit surprised that Haypro was the one TLer to lose? Fine for all your loyalty, but when other PROGAMERS are questioning him on air, what gives for the blind loyalty?
I just don't think you understand the nature of Team Liquid. This isn't EG or another hardcore corporate team that cuts players that aren't profitible. TL is clearly very thoughtfulon the players they choose to add to the roster, and to my knowledge there hasn't been a single cut to date thanks to their careful selection process.
If you haven't noticed, it seems that only the brightest, most honorable and respectul players are invited to join the team. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the players on Liquid's roster are the very embodiment of this website in terms of values. Is this sheer coincidence that TL chose these personalities to represent the community? I think not.
TL is not going to cut Haypro or anyone else anytime soon. People don't keep coming to this website just to see good results from the roster, or crazy talk from a rude "what's-he-going-to-say-next" player. No, they come because this is a great community that goes beyond merely trying to appease the small (but heavily vocal) results-driven, uber-testosterone-charged adolescent crowd.
This place has transcended the norm and is now a family for most of us, and you don't just throw a member of your family out in the cold because you think you might make more money with someone else.
I do want to say as a kind of retort if I may. In MLG Orlando Haypro and Hero were the top two finishers for TL and they were knocked out in the same round (Wiki2)2011 MLG Pro Circuit/Orlando
As well as in MLG Providence he not only finished 7th (top for TL) but did so by beating Nestea Select and KiwiKaki.
So I wouldn't count him out yet!
YourGoodFriend, I thank you for bringing something substantial to the table other than blind loyalty to all the members of the TL pro SC2 team. Contrary to what many may think I am not crying for pitchforks and torches in regards to Haypro. However I am asking for a reasonable discussion in-regard to his worth to the team. I ask anyone here who follows a pro sports team to list how often that team let loyalty and friendship come in the way of the bottom line. And oh yes this has happened, albet rarely in some special cases. Numerous NFL (American football) and MLB (baseball) teams, rarely, and I mean rarely in the past 15 years are willing to follow loyalty to a player when it comes to the greater good of the team. In addition to that, there is the not so small matter of that particular players worth to the team in term of merchandise and branding.
I would ask those who blindly agree that Haypro deserves his position to bring actual data, whether it be marketing, results or whatever to show it. All I can say is he has been questioned since the end of beta by many players/commentators/ analysts. Give me reasons other than blind loyalty why he should still be on the team?
Most teams are like family. Removing one player who is still showing results has a detrimental effect on the team and it's atmosphere. In the case of TL, why would they remove HayprO? His showing decent results for a 'foreigner' and is a key member in Liquid. When you see Bon Jovi or Banjo, I personally am reminded of HayprO, so there's marketability there.
Now you say you want to have a discussion about HayprO and his worth on the team? Your quote is solid proof as to why he is still on the team: He can beat top level players.
I ask you the following questions:
Why is SaSe on Quantic? Why is lzGamer on EG? Why is Jinro on TL? Why is DeMuslim on EG? Why is Machine on EG?
Because guess what? You don't have the right to say who deserves to be on what team and why. The team owner and player are the judge of it, there's really no discussion to do here. Also, get me transcripts of players and commentators who have questioned why HayprO is still playing. Everything I've read or heard states the opposite - HayprO has the ability to take down top tier players. Personally, that in itself warrants him to be on the team.
IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremelly good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year.
I just don't think you understand the nature of Team Liquid. This isn't EG or another hardcore corporate team that cuts players that aren't profitible. TL is clearly very thoughtful on the players they choose to add to the roster, and to my knowledge there hasn't been a single cut to date due to their careful selection process.
If you haven't noticed, it seems that only the brightest, most honorable and respectul players are invited to join the team. In fact, I'd go as far to say that the players on Liquid's roster are the very embodiment of this website in terms of values. Is this sheer coincidence that TL chose these personalities to represent the community? I think not.
TL is not going to cut Haypro or anyone else anytime soon. People don't keep coming to this website just to see good results from the roster, or crazy talk from a rude "what's-he-going-to-say-next" player. No, they come because this is a great community that goes beyond merely trying to appease the small (but heavily vocal) results-driven, uber-testosterone-charged adolescent crowd.
This place has transcended the norm and is now a family for most of us, and you don't just throw a member of your family out in the cold because you think might make more money with someone else. Last
I feel like you sum up best both my feelings on the issue as well as all those opposed.
I am not trying to call into the viability of the TL site as a whole, which you seem to mention as your primary arguement, please correct me if I'm wrong about this. However I am not talking about the Tl SITE, which has very clearly morphed before all our eyes into a community based NEWS site. TL, as a news source and community website, is starting to brand itself as such, the fact that now unless one checks the "hide spoilers" box speaks for itself.
All I am calling into question is the TL "PRO TEAM". It is easy to place TL as a sort of utopian place where loyalty and friendship is placed above all, and to be honest I hope it retains those values as well as they can. Yet as this grows those values will change, as anyone who was here prior to SC2 can attest(I am not among them). All I can keep pointing out is the worth of Haypro to the TL "PRO TEAM", not the community as a whole. Yes it is wonderful to wish that our sport, competitive SC2, won't degenerate into the money driven world that is professional athletics. However, I ask for those in the community to list Haypro's contributions, both competitive and community based, that continue to justify his spot on the TL"PRO-GAMING" team. That is the crux of my arguement.
Clearly I do not pretend to know all of the competitive side, he may be an extremely effective practice partner to other TL pro-members, and sure, maybe that is alone worth his continued part of the team. But still nobody has given any sort of proof other than "TL values its loyalty and friends" why he is still a member of the "PRO" team to be sent out againt other teams. If he had better results or a stronger community presence I'd be more forgiving of him.
IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year
Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
I think turning this thread into a Haypro topic doesn't make any sense. His team smashed us, His team played better. They won 3 of 4 BO 3's, no one can win them all. Haypro has beaten incredible players at times, lets be reminded of when he took out Nestea.
He deserves to be on TL, or he wouldn't be anymore plain and simple. Give the guy a break.
IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year
Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
top 8al mlg providence, which was one of, if not the most stacked tournament outside of GSL, isn't a meaningful result?
IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year
Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
top 8al mlg providence, which was one of, if not the most stacked tournament outside of GSL, isn't a meaningful result?
gonna disagree there.
Exactly, he placed above IdrA in that tournament. How in the hell is that not team worthy skill?
Sir Cornstyle you asked for results as a reason to why he is on the team I gave you those results (see earlier post on page 9 ) yet you still say this
But still nobody has given any sort of proof other than "TL values its loyalty and friends" why he is still a member of the "PRO" team to be sent out againt other teams. If he had better results or a stronger community presence I'd be more forgiving of him.
So I must ask what do you really want? He actually has a better list of recent results than all of EG excluding Puma (please check this out if you do not believe me) and has been known to take down some of the top players in the world. So I ask again tell me what are you looking for? a GSL title? a MLG title? a IEM title? please explain because I have given you solid proof and yet you still are asking the same question which has already been answered
IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year
Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
top 8al mlg providence, which was one of, if not the most stacked tournament outside of GSL, isn't a meaningful result?
gonna disagree there.
cherry picking 1 result doesnt mean anything ever. i hate it when threads like this dissolve into people hunting liquidpedia for 1 result to justify their whole point of view. 1 win, 1 loss, hell 5 wins, 5 losses dont mean anything big picture. when you decide how good a player is you should concentrate more on how they win or lose, alongside a huge string of results.
all this cherry picking just makes everyone look stupid.
IMO Sase and Demuslim are extremely good players, no idea why they are on your list. However, I do agree with your point about Haypro. He is a beast, I love his stream, hope he can make waves this year
Long story short, I do not wish ill of Haypro, however he has always been spoken highly of, yet in almost 2 years has yet to deliver any meaningful results both in game and out
The entirety of it'sgosu has no players with meaningful results, maybe the team should just disband? Your posts are some of the most obnoxious passive-aggressive "just asking questions" ones I've seen recently.
I don`t see Liquid kicking out any of their players as i contradicts the family approach (and the notion of family also entails that things don`t always go as desired). What I can see though is that 1 or 2 players might lose their motivation to continue as a player if 2012 shouldn`t bring them any success. However even then I would consider it as likely that they would stay with Liquid but in a different role (pr, team management)
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